Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

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WryCosmos
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by WryCosmos »

Full Daoist alchemical practice (energy work resulting in Daoist immortality) is the process of neigong. Qigong tends to involve energy practices which are more specific in use or individual functionality. Neigong has a larger ongoing process of development where new energy practices open up or are refined--almost as if neigong involved many concentrated, layered, and at advanced stages evolving qigong practices within a lifelong practice curriculum. There's more to neigong practices as well though (with precepts, rules, core texts, stages of initiation, etc), since it's a full Daoist path of cultivation.

I am guessing that these schools and full practices of neigong internal alchemy do not appear elsewhere in Buddhism. Tang China's Buddhist philosophy and practice mutually had strong influence upon the Taoist schools of the period (an accessible read about the the Ch'an/Taoism crossover is David Hinton's 'China Root'), but this era predates the organized practice of internal alchemy systems. Daoist schools of internal alchemy, a number of which are transmitted to the present with recorded lineage, were formally established as practicing schools at the end of the Song dynasty (1100s to early 1200s) or shortly after. Chinese Buddhism disappears in the centuries prior to these Daoist energy cultivation schools. Buddhist sanghas and communities were forcibly disbanded shortly after Kukai and Saicho traveled to China and returned home to Japan with their teachings which would form Shingon and Tendai Buddhism.

During the early 800s, when Kukai and Saicho studied with their Chinese Buddhist teachers, esoteric Vajrayana-style practice had not been formalized yet--Tibetan Vajrayana teachings would become formalized in following centuries like the Daoist energy schools. I don't have the background practice or studies to comment properly, but if influences of tantra and energy practices of Indian (Buddhist and otherwise) schools of the same period through Tibetan and Chinese esoteric systems exist, that could mean Buddhist traditions of Mahayana which have similar energy work might go back to Indian energy systems.
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nyonchung
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by nyonchung »

WryCosmos wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:17 am Full Daoist alchemical practice (energy work resulting in Daoist immortality) is the process of neigong. Qigong tends to involve energy practices which are more specific in use or individual functionality. Neigong has a larger ongoing process of development where new energy practices open up or are refined--almost as if neigong involved many concentrated, layered, and at advanced stages evolving qigong practices within a lifelong practice curriculum. There's more to neigong practices as well though (with precepts, rules, core texts, stages of initiation, etc), since it's a full Daoist path of cultivation.

I am guessing that these schools and full practices of neigong internal alchemy do not appear elsewhere in Buddhism. Tang China's Buddhist philosophy and practice mutually had strong influence upon the Taoist schools of the period (an accessible read about the the Ch'an/Taoism crossover is David Hinton's 'China Root'), but this era predates the organized practice of internal alchemy systems. Daoist schools of internal alchemy, a number of which are transmitted to the present with recorded lineage, were formally established as practicing schools at the end of the Song dynasty (1100s to early 1200s) or shortly after. Chinese Buddhism disappears in the centuries prior to these Daoist energy cultivation schools. Buddhist sanghas and communities were forcibly disbanded shortly after Kukai and Saicho traveled to China and returned home to Japan with their teachings which would form Shingon and Tendai Buddhism.

During the early 800s, when Kukai and Saicho studied with their Chinese Buddhist teachers, esoteric Vajrayana-style practice had not been formalized yet--Tibetan Vajrayana teachings would become formalized in following centuries like the Daoist energy schools. I don't have the background practice or studies to comment properly, but if influences of tantra and energy practices of Indian (Buddhist and otherwise) schools of the same period through Tibetan and Chinese esoteric systems exist, that could mean Buddhist traditions of Mahayana which have similar energy work might go back to Indian energy systems.
As you say, you didn't read enough or not relevant studies and have your chronology wrong, simply. The Guhuyasamaja-tantra appears among many tantras translated in Tibetan in the period c. 780-840, Vajrakilaya too, and a few others - definitely "esoteric Vajrayana-style practice"
You have your geography wrong, too, there's no "Tibetan Vajrayana teachings", they come from India. As Mahayana BTW
About Daoism, I can't say.
But as for "internal alchemy" some Southern-India shivaist school claim that they influenced Daoism, perhaps not without some historical background, there are a few remnants of Shaiva temples in Southern China, and Shaivism was dominant in many part of Southeast Asia (Cham / Vietnam) - often along with Tantric Buddhism (Cambodia, Indonesia)
Indian Buddhist masters never really stopped to travel along the Silk Road (we find Tantric teachers in the Xixia kingdom at the time of the Northern Song)
Detecting "influences" is often a risky job, specially centuries after.
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

nyonchung wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:19 am (we find Tantric teachers in the Xixia kingdom at the time of the Northern Song)
That's not surprising but do you have a reference? I'm assuming it's not from Tangut sources
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nyonchung
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by nyonchung »

PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:47 pm
nyonchung wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:19 am (we find Tantric teachers in the Xixia kingdom at the time of the Northern Song)
That's not surprising but do you have a reference? I'm assuming it's not from Tangut sources
Tangut sources arne now well studied (the language survived later than thought)
And many Tangut (mi nyag pas) settled in Tibet

Sometimes through Tibetan (mentions in the Deb ther sngon po - translated by Roerich) and Duhuanbg documents
Lots of things have been published in Chinese (my Chinese is pretty limited) and in Russian from Tangut sources
Heather Stoddard wrote a few things (I followed her seminary years back) drawing from the Russian sources
Sam van Schaik works on the Dunhuang sources (Tibetan)

- Stoddard (1997)
= "The Nine Brothers of the White High, Mi-nyag and 'King' Pe-dkar Revisisted" , Heather Stoddard, in "les Habitants du Toit du Monde" , édité par Samten Karmay et Philippe Sagant- Nanterre, Société d' Ethnologie, 1997, pp. 75-110
has a relatively dated bibliography

this:
Shen Weirong. ‘A Preliminary Investigation into the Tangut Background of the Mongol Adoption of Tibetan Tantric Buddhism,’ in Orna Almogi ed., Contribution to Tibetan Buddhist Literature (Halle (Salle) Germany: Halle International Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, 2008): 315-350.
he is excellent
also
Sperling, Elliot. ‘Rtsa-mi lo-tsā-ba Sangs-rgyas Grags-pa and the Tangut Background to Early Mongol-Tibetan Relations,’ in Per Kvaerne, ed., Tibetan Studies. Proceedings of the 6th Seminar of the International Association for Tibetan Studies (Oslo: The Institute for Comparative Research in Human Culture, 1994): 801-824

The loss of Elliot Sperling was a tragedy
Seems that there is an explosion in Tangut studies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangutology
references in Chinese
http://idp.bl.uk/education/symposium/tangut/index.a4d

excellent bibliography:
https://www.asianart.com/articles/xi-xia/index.html
read it and you will have a mention of direct Pala influence (via Indians) in Tangut art - an excellent introduction

but we're already far off topic ...late Indian alchemy found it's way in Tibetan Buddhism
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

nyonchung wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:14 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:47 pm
nyonchung wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:19 am (we find Tantric teachers in the Xixia kingdom at the time of the Northern Song)
That's not surprising but do you have a reference? I'm assuming it's not from Tangut sources
Tangut sources arne now well studied (the language survived later than thought)
And many Tangut (mi nyag pas) settled in Tibet

Sometimes through Tibetan (mentions in the Deb ther sngon po - translated by Roerich) and Duhuanbg documents
Lots of things have been published in Chinese (my Chinese is pretty limited) and in Russian from Tangut sources
Heather Stoddard wrote a few things (I followed her seminary years back) drawing from the Russian sources
Sam van Schaik works on the Dunhuang sources (Tibetan)

- Stoddard (1997)
= "The Nine Brothers of the White High, Mi-nyag and 'King' Pe-dkar Revisisted" , Heather Stoddard, in "les Habitants du Toit du Monde" , édité par Samten Karmay et Philippe Sagant- Nanterre, Société d' Ethnologie, 1997, pp. 75-110
has a relatively dated bibliography

this:
Shen Weirong. ‘A Preliminary Investigation into the Tangut Background of the Mongol Adoption of Tibetan Tantric Buddhism,’ in Orna Almogi ed., Contribution to Tibetan Buddhist Literature (Halle (Salle) Germany: Halle International Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, 2008): 315-350.
he is excellent
also
Sperling, Elliot. ‘Rtsa-mi lo-tsā-ba Sangs-rgyas Grags-pa and the Tangut Background to Early Mongol-Tibetan Relations,’ in Per Kvaerne, ed., Tibetan Studies. Proceedings of the 6th Seminar of the International Association for Tibetan Studies (Oslo: The Institute for Comparative Research in Human Culture, 1994): 801-824

The loss of Elliot Sperling was a tragedy
Seems that there is an explosion in Tangut studies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangutology
references in Chinese
http://idp.bl.uk/education/symposium/tangut/index.a4d

excellent bibliography:
https://www.asianart.com/articles/xi-xia/index.html
read it and you will have a mention of direct Pala influence (via Indians) in Tangut art - an excellent introduction

but we're already far off topic ...late Indian alchemy found it's way in Tibetan Buddhism
I’m familiar with the Chinese research on it. The language has been more or less reconstructed, though we don’t really know what it sounded like, but most of the documents people have to work with are translated scripture, administrative documents etc - not a lot of social or religious history. Obviously a lot can be inferred from which texts translated from Chinese or Tibetan show up. But the best sources on history remain, for the most part, contemporary Chinese histories, and they aren’t always that detailed.

I guess they should have treated Temujin better when he was with them…
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nyonchung
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by nyonchung »

PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:43 pm
I’m familiar with the Chinese research on it. The language has been more or less reconstructed, though we don’t really know what it sounded like, but most of the documents people have to work with are translated scripture, administrative documents etc - not a lot of social or religious history. Obviously a lot can be inferred from which texts translated from Chinese or Tibetan show up. But the best sources on history remain, for the most part, contemporary Chinese histories, and they aren’t always that detailed.

I guess they should have treated Temujin better when he was with them…
https://www.asianart.com/articles/xi-xia/index.html
points to the Indian presence in arts - early finds (paintings) show the presence of Indian masters, Tibetan sources are few but confirm the presence of Indian teachers, also described in some Dunhuang documents

The indian master Smritijñanakirti (dates unknown) visited Liangzhou between 1010 and 1030 before settling definitely in Kham, interestingly in Denma Longthang Drönma / Langthang Drölma, built earlier by the Minyagpas by order of king Songtsen Gampo (617-649?) - Taylor & Yuthok (1996 - rgyal rab gsel ba'i me long), p. 175
Dromtön Gyelwa'i Jungné (1004/5-1064), better known as the main disciple of Atisha, studied with him in his youth.
Smriti is also associated with Ling Gesar (to me, an historical figure)

A few of these Indians visited also China (practically Wutai Shan) and came through Tibet, like Vairochanarakshita (but possibly more than one master used this name) around 1120
Otherwise these Indian masters are sometimes difficult to identify and Tibetan sources are generally chronologically vague, except for the tselpa-kagyüpa sources for the period preceding the fall of the Xixia and a few cases like

The Tangut translater Tsami Lotsawa Möndrub Sherab invited Shunyashri in 1108 (Möndrub Sherab is better known as the translator of the life of 85 mahāsiddhas)
He is different from Tsami Lotsawa Sanggyé Dragpa (+ c. 1140) who became abbot of Nalandara and of Vajrasana - this shows definitely a close degree of relationship between Minyag / Xixia and India

Last, the general idea is that the whole of Tanguts were exterminated to avenge Jinggis death, or at least the royal family, this is not the case.
Tangut monks are active during the Yuan dynasty
Tibetan sources mention descendants of the mi nyag royal family (and their dependants) settling in Kham.
The Sakyapa sources must be studied closely in this regard, since Sakya had already ties with Minyag before the fall and monasteries were given later to Sakya Pendita
Jetsün Dragpa Gyeltsen (1147-1216) sent an envoy to Minyag Gyelgö (a somehow generic term for the Xixia rulers) and this Jobum received an official title
Two noble families of Upper Tsang area (West of Central Tibet) claim to be branches of the mi nyag / Tangut royal family (posibly settled ther before the fall of the Xixia)

Last the biography of the 4th Karmapa mention a king of Minyag as late as c. 1365, but it might be an apanaged Mongol prince

Now :focus: ?
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

nyonchung wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:42 pm
Last, the general idea is that the whole of Tanguts were exterminated to avenge Jinggis death, or at least the royal family, this is not the case.
Tangut monks are active during the Yuan dynasty
Tibetan sources mention descendants of the mi nyag royal family (and their dependants) settling in Kham.
The Sakyapa sources must be studied closely in this regard, since Sakya had already ties with Minyag before the fall and monasteries were given later to Sakya Pendita
Jetsün Dragpa Gyeltsen (1147-1216) sent an envoy to Minyag Gyelgö (a somehow generic term for the Xixia rulers) and this Jobum received an official title
Two noble families of Upper Tsang area (West of Central Tibet) claim to be branches of the mi nyag / Tangut royal family (posibly settled ther before the fall of the Xixia)

Last the biography of the 4th Karmapa mention a king of Minyag as late as c. 1365, but it might be an apanaged Mongol prince

Now :focus: ?
Not quite yet :)

The fall of the western Xia is dated to 1227 so diplomacy with he sakyapas before that shouldn’t be surprising, not least because there were Sakyapa lamas in that part of the world before and after that point.

Yes, the entire Western Xia population didn’t die when the mongols invaded, but that’s not the same as saying the kingdom survived the invasion. The majority of what we refer to as kingdoms in that part of the world - Liao, Nvzhen, Qidan, etc - were at best multiethnic polities with a ruling elite. Actually that’s a fair description of the mongol empire for most of its life. They all contained displaced or minority populations. There was definitely people claiming to represent the western Xia in the late 13th century. Song history records it as having been fairly wealthy, consistent with its location on good agricultural land, so presumably the rulers had money to abscond with. But there is a point at which a kingdom does cease to exist as a political unit, typically when it ceases to write its own history in its own language, and all that’s left is people assimilating into other kingdoms. Post the mongol invasion there’s very, very little documentary evidence written in Tangut that would suggest that a coherent group survived very much longer. That’s perhaps a shame since tangut is a fascinating script, though extremely inefficient.
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nyonchung
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by nyonchung »

Of course, the kingdom disapearred, but there was no extermination (and possibly also didn't die in Xixia - possibly further South in Onggud territory - Ordos)
A part of the nobility survived - possibly because they surrendered in time to the Mongols (the tselpa-kagyüpa sources may provide details) and the monastic system (that was involving Tanguts, but also Uïgurs, Tibetans and probably Chinese monks) obviously survived, to be put at the service of the Mongols and played certainly a role in the association with, culminating with the invitation of Sakya Pendita and his takeover of the monasteries.
I fond an extremely intersting lineage of Vinaya lung, mentioned in Shakya Chogden and Drölchog's works, that ends up in Kyormolung. It has a long list of Uïgur khenpos and probably goes through Minyag before reaching Tibet. This is the most complete Vinaya lineage I ever found in Tibet, some 45 names since the Buddha - and I surveyed completly the "records of personnel teachings" of Butön, Tsongkapha, Ngorchen, Künga Drölchog, Dzaya Pendita (4 vol), plus sections of those of Sakya Lotsawa, the Great Fifth ...).

Ther are certainly more information on these "later" Tanguts to be found in litterature concerning Karmapa Pakshi and up to the Fifth Karmapa, possibly also by a more attentive reading of the Sakya sources - but one Leonard Van der Kuijp (and a few others) possibly did already some work in this area (il have an awful backlog of secondary literature to read, and would have no time left to deal with recent publication).

I guess that that the survival of Tangut literacy is connected with the survival a sizeable monastic community.-
- il semble bien qu' ils lui soient donnés, et par

It must be noted that the temples in Liangzhou were visited in 1579 by Taglung 18 Lotsawa Künga Trashi (1536-1605) and possibly given to him (possibly symbolically) Qutuγtai Sechen Qungtaiji (1540-1586) , a grand-nephew of Altan Khan - sTag lung chos 'byung, p. 546
Nothing is said about the monks.
So :focus: ?
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

nyonchung wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:24 pm Of course, the kingdom disapearred, but there was no extermination (and possibly also didn't die in Xixia - possibly further South in Onggud territory - Ordos)
A part of the nobility survived - possibly because they surrendered in time to the Mongols (the tselpa-kagyüpa sources may provide details) and the monastic system (that was involving Tanguts, but also Uïgurs, Tibetans and probably Chinese monks) obviously survived, to be put at the service of the Mongols and played certainly a role in the association with, culminating with the invitation of Sakya Pendita and his takeover of the monasteries.
I fond an extremely intersting lineage of Vinaya lung, mentioned in Shakya Chogden and Drölchog's works, that ends up in Kyormolung. It has a long list of Uïgur khenpos and probably goes through Minyag before reaching Tibet. This is the most complete Vinaya lineage I ever found in Tibet, some 45 names since the Buddha - and I surveyed completly the "records of personnel teachings" of Butön, Tsongkapha, Ngorchen, Künga Drölchog, Dzaya Pendita (4 vol), plus sections of those of Sakya Lotsawa, the Great Fifth ...).
Do you have the reference for that? Very interesting indeed
Ther are certainly more information on these "later" Tanguts to be found in litterature concerning Karmapa Pakshi and up to the Fifth Karmapa, possibly also by a more attentive reading of the Sakya sources - but one Leonard Van der Kuijp (and a few others) possibly did already some work in this area (il have an awful backlog of secondary literature to read, and would have no time left to deal with recent publication).

I guess that that the survival of Tangut literacy is connected with the survival a sizeable monastic community.-
- il semble bien qu' ils lui soient donnés, et par
Well, you would need an intact and unintegrated monastic community, which is highly unlikely. The Mongol modus operandi in that period was generally to seek recognition of suzerainty and then integrate at a functional level (tax, trade, tribute, etc.). Rarely did they actually engage in campaigns of extermination, the Tanguts being one of a few notable exceptions. Even in those, though, they generally left isolated monasteries untouched (Buddhist ones at least) and accepted en bloc surrenders of cities if they were quick enough. So while the majority of the ordinary Tanguts would have found their way into chattel slavery, prostitution, etc. or been killed, the monks and perhaps a few wealthy defectors would have survived. However they would then have to integrate into another community, since that's where their funding and future monks come from, so within a generation or so they would have lost their cultural identity, which would explain the paucity of tangut-language sources post the Mongol conquest. This is the main problem with the study of the period - we really don't have much by way of historical and social commentary in the Tangut language.

This is of course largely speculation, because the alternative explanation is that texts simply didn't survive. Between then and now you have several major wars and revolutions that depleted monastic libraries in that part of the world.
It must be noted that the temples in Liangzhou were visited in 1579 by Taglung 18 Lotsawa Künga Trashi (1536-1605) and possibly given to him (possibly symbolically) Qutuγtai Sechen Qungtaiji (1540-1586) , a grand-nephew of Altan Khan - sTag lung chos 'byung, p. 546
Nothing is said about the monks.
Again, speculating, but by that point it's highly unlikely that a discrete tangut community could have survived that long.
So :focus: ?
OK, but this is far more interesting than the whole qigong/neigong/etc. topic, which is a field with way too much BS of questionable origins
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nyonchung
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by nyonchung »

For Taglung 18, definitely no evidence, but what is clear is that the Mongol were invaders
That the local population was still Tangut is, well, impossible to know, the 100 years or so preceding Taglung 18's visit having been particularly cahotic
There was nevertheless a monastic community, but certainly using Tibetan for ritual and study purposes since the times of Sapen and Phagpa
And this use of Tibetan probably marked the end of Tangut literacy in monasteries (plus the inherent problems inherent to Tangut wring)
There was still also some degree of Uigur literacy in the area (Phagpa had texts brought to Sakya)
Nevertheless we have these few inscriptions in Tangut

"Rarely did they actually engage ", well they did at the beginning, and this was the great debate betwen Ariq Boqë and Qubilai

a good reading:
- Samosyuk (2001)
= "'Donors' in the Tangut Paintings from Khara-khoto: Their Meaning and Function", by Kira Samosyuk, in The Tibet Journal, vol. XXVI, n° 3&4, autumn and winter 2001 - LTWA, Dharamasala, pp. 165-198

now we're
as for the 'dul ba lung

it appears also in Shakya Chogden, and late, in lho-drugpa literature (2 versions at least)
source:
Kun dga' grol mchog thob yig
= dam pa'i chos kyi thob yig bstan pa'i nor rdzas
BDRC - W1KG18291 - gser bris probably from Lo Menthang

- thub pa'i dbang po
- gnas brtan chen po nyan thos 'od srung
- 'phags pa kun dga'o
- dgra bcom pa sha na'i gos can
- dgra bcom pa nyer sbas
- dgra bcom pa bha ba na nta
from there this lineage differs completely from the usual 'dul wa lineages
- dgra bcom pa me tsa ka
- dgra bcom pa gang po - these seven are the dgra bcom pa bdun brgyud

- rta dbyangs
- ku ma ra ma ti
- ha ri bha
- i shva ra ka ndha li
- sa ngha bha su
- pu rNa mi tra
- dha rma da rta
- bu dha de ba
- dha ra dha
- these nine are the yul ma ga dha'i 'dul 'dzin pa'i slob dpon

- sa ngha se na
- pu nyA na nta
- dznyA de ba
- a shva ka ra kshi ta
- sa rba ra kshi ta
- dha rmA kSha na
- those six are khu sen gyi yul gyi 'dul 'dzin pa'i slob dpon
donc Kushana

- dha rma ra kshi ta
- ka lya na ra kshi ta
- pra dznya
- f.188b ( p. 338)
- ra khsita
- shrI ma rga u pa de ba
- mo ksha ra kshi ta
- ka lya na bha dra
- mi dzi ta bha dra bha wa
- ka ra se na
- a ti tya se na
- ma rga u pa de sha
- saM gha se na
- shI la da sha
- bu dha da sha
- shA kya pra bha
- gu na se na
- a shwa mi tra
- sha kya mi tra
- sa rba mi tra
- these are the twenty yu gur gyi yul gyi 'dul 'dzin (20 Uïgur khenpos)
- at that point 42 names

then
- shi la mi tra who taught in ka mon gyi yul (I doubt the ka)
- sbal ldi dgra bcom pa = Belti Drachompa (1129-1215)
- skyor mo lung bkra shis dpal
- skyor mo lung rin chen 'od zer
- mkhan chen shes rab rdo rje
- bka' bzhi pa blo gsal
- chos rgyal dpal bzang
- mchog ldan
- f. 189 (p. 339) -
- ye shes lhun grub
- Künga Drölchog

regarding Tibetan sources
- Lho rong chos 'byung, pp. 214-215
Tishri Repa Sherab Senggé (1164-1236) got his title in Minyag
next post will be even more :focus: and in French!
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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nyonchung
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by nyonchung »

- Lho rong chos 'byung
= Dam pa'i chos kyi 'byung bai legs bshad lho rong chos 'byung ngam rta tsahg chos 'byung zhes rtsom pa'i yul ming du chags pa'i ngo mtshar zhing dkon pa'i dpe khyad par can bzhugs so - 1446 - by Tatsag Tsé Wanggyel ( c. 1395-c.1468)
-Gangs can rigs mdzod 26, Bod ljongs bod yig dpe rnying dpe skrun khang, Lhasa 1994
-ISBN 7-80589-017-X
Deb ther dmar po
par gzhi dang po/tshal pa kun dga' rdo rjes brtsams/ dung dkar blo bzang 'phrin las kyis mchan 'grel bkod
1 volume; 478 p., mi rigs dpe skrung khang , pe cin. 1981
I have to return to the deb ther

a timeline of the fall of Minyag from Tibetan sources:

- Chun You ( r. 1193-1206)
- en 1200, Tishri Repa Sherab Senggé (1164-1236) visite kam chu (Ganzhou) et y rencontre dge bshes Tsangpo
- il prend en charge Gurub et Yarwa dgon pa et y attire de nombreux moines
- il n' est qu' ensuite invité à Kamchu par le roi du Minyag - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 214

- 1205
- en 1205, Rongchen Künga Döndrub (Lharjé Döndrub, 1173-1253), un Khön cousin de Sakya Pendita par pour Do-mé (sur une prophétie de Khaché Penchen) et s' installe à Rebkong (il est possible que ce soit avec l' accord du roi de Minyag, avec qui Sakya a des relations régulières) - Reb gong yul skor , p. 10

- 1206
- Chun You décède en tout début d' année, Tishri Repa intrônise son successeur Shoho Gyelpo (Li Anquan) le premier mois de stag lo 1206 - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 215
- peu après les armées mongoles approchent et Tishri Repa part via Lingchu pour Chogro Trikha
- Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 215

- 1207
- en 1207 Jinggis Khan attaque le Minyag, il reçoit alors une mission tibétaine qui fait sa soumission (très discuté mais plus que probable, il y de nombreux lamas kagyïupas et sakyapas au Minyag)
- Tsangpa Dungkhur-wa Wangchug Trashi, un disciple de Lama Zhang Yudrag- pa (1123-1193) rencontre Jinggis au Minyag
- ce dernier l' envoie enseigner à sog yul - Kitinov (1996), p. 36

- 1209
- le 7ème mois de sbrul lo 1209, les Mongols approchent de Gakhar - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 215

- 1210
- le 1er mois de rta lo 1210, les Mongols encerclent Gakhar
- 'gro mgon Tishri Repa Sherab Senggé (1164-1236), dge bshes Tsangpo Könchog Senggé (+1218) et Shriri Phugpa arrivent à les repousser par leurs pratiques des protecteurs - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 215
- le 1 du 3ème mois de rta lo , les Mongols sont encerclés par la Khar chu ?
- les trois lancent des gtor ma et le 6 les flots emportent de nombreux Mongols
- le 14, rgyal po'i bu mo byas nas dum nas = la princesse est donnée (à Jinggis)?
- Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 215

- 1211
- en lug 1211, il y a une grande sécheresse et'gro mgon Tishri Repa Sherab Senggé (1164-1236) fait tomber la pluie, le roi le fait venir à rgyal rgod rgyal sa (qui est apparament différent de Ganzhou), probablement Qaraqota ou Xingqing - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 215

- c. 1215
- Gar Chöding Shakya Pel (1180-1240) , un des trois principaux disciples de Drikhung 1 Kyobpa Jigten Sumgön (1143-1217), vient à Minyag Ga et recontre Tishri Repa et Shriri Phugpa
- bien que le roi lui fasse des demandes régulières, il refuse de devenir le dbu bla - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 434

- 1218
- en 1218, Tsangpo Könchog Senggé, tishri du Minyag décède à Jang-ngö et Tishri Repa veille à ses funérailles - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 215

- à cette époque Wangchug Gyelpo (1189-1274), de clan Drenka et du dbon bgryud de Barom- pa, devient abbé de Minyag Wangdé - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 209

- 1219
- en 1219, Tishri Repa est appelé à Ga (mga') et reçoit le titre de tishri
- Jinggis Khan prend Lanzhou en 1219
- puis les Mongols approchent de nouveau, suite aux rituels irrités, le général meurt, et ils répartent - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 216
- en 1219/20, les forces de Gya Trithen approchent du Minyag et 'gro mgon Tishri Repa Sherab Senggé (1164-1236) les repousse grâce à un dmag zlog - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 216

- 1221
- en 1221, Jinggis Khan détruit Xingqing, le palais des Xixia au Shanxi et ses troupes prennent une dizaine de villes à l' Ouest, dont Yulong, Jiechi, ... - Du & Wang (2005), p. 15

- 1225
- en 1225, Jinggis repart en personne contre les Xixias, est repoussé devant Shazhou, mais il prend Suzhou - Du & Wang (2005), p. 15

- 1226
- le roi meurt le premier mois de khyi lo = 1226
- Tishri Repa dirige les rituels pendant 49 jours et part avant l' arrivée des Mongols - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 216
- en 1226, Jinggis s' empare finalement de Shazhou et prend aussi Ganzhou
- il s' empare aussi du palais de Xiliang - Du & Wang (2005), p. 15

- le royaume est totalement détruit
- Jinggis Khan fait tuer An Quan/ Tho'i Dzi /Shoho Gyelpo (12ème génération?) - Stoddard (1997), p. 91


- Hexi peut au 13/14ème désigner le Minyag (Tangut) - Weirong Shen (2004), p. 191

- 1227
- en outre, en me mo phag 1227, Khyungtsang-pa invite Tishri Repa au Minyag (que ce dernier avait fuit après la mort du dernier roi et devant l' avancée des Mongols) - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 216

- c. 1230
- Sanggyé Balam-pa, Lhachug gdan sa pa 4 visite le Minyag - Deb ther dmar po, p. 135

if this not :offtopic: what is?
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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nyonchung
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by nyonchung »

Sorry, no time to translate today or next week
If interested try to gogole this, if result poor (this is most probable) and still interested send a PM
the timeline is interesting, but thissubject has maybe already been covered by Leonard Van der Kuijp, who worked a lot on the Lho rong chos 'byung, and is immensely more qualified than I - he is also a sinologist - a prerequisite to be competent in such matters (Mongol sources disappeared since long)
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

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AmidaB
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by AmidaB »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:25 am
Those are some nice qigong moves. It seems to me that in the beginning he starts from the lower dan tian, then some 'playing with balls in the water' - very good, I almost feel the resistance of the buoying- buncing balls as Rinpoche doing it. Then guiding the energy into the middle dan tian area, and some kind of 'holding the sky or holding up balls/pearls'. You can see by his subtle movements and how his holding his palms and fingers that he is a seasoned practitioner. At the end he guides the energy from the middle dan tian area to the lower dan tian - a sort of grounding/closing. Then repeat :twothumbsup:
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Matt J »

There may be some similarities in Zen, especially given the interplay in China. For instance, Hakuin got a technique that seems to have Daoist roots. Most Zen teachers in the West seem to be unaware of any such techniques, except perhaps for Meido Roshi.

I don't know what HH is practicing in the video above, but most of what I have learned about Tibetan vice Daoist energy practices suggest they are quite different. Chakras are not dan tians, for instance. In neigong, the general principle is to build the dan tian, establish the microcosmic orbit, refine course energy into fine energy, and build a subtle energy body. It tends to focus on building and refining. Basically, my understanding is that you are building an immortal subtle body.

I think the Tibetan style is a bit different AFAIK. In Tibetan Dzogchen styles, the focus tends to be about opening, expanding and letting go (even if there is a temporary holding, locking, and concentrating). Of course, the highest forms of energy practices aren't practices at all. I say "Dzogchen" because the only subtle body I have learned is from Dzogchen teachers. I understand Tantric completion stage practices may be quite different, but I haven't learned any of them.

Interestingly, in my experience, the shadow side of Daoist cultivation tends to be a strong ego and arrogance, whereas the shadow side of Buddhism tends to be a passive indifference.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

nyonchung wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:26 pm - 1221
- en 1221, Jinggis Khan détruit Xingqing, le palais des Xixia au Shanxi et ses troupes prennent une dizaine de villes à l' Ouest, dont Yulong, Jiechi, ... - Du & Wang (2005), p. 15

- 1225
- en 1225, Jinggis repart en personne contre les Xixias, est repoussé devant Shazhou, mais il prend Suzhou - Du & Wang (2005), p. 15

- 1226
- le roi meurt le premier mois de khyi lo = 1226
- Tishri Repa dirige les rituels pendant 49 jours et part avant l' arrivée des Mongols - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 216
- en 1226, Jinggis s' empare finalement de Shazhou et prend aussi Ganzhou
- il s' empare aussi du palais de Xiliang - Du & Wang (2005), p. 15

- le royaume est totalement détruit
- Jinggis Khan fait tuer An Quan/ Tho'i Dzi /Shoho Gyelpo (12ème génération?) - Stoddard (1997), p. 91


- Hexi peut au 13/14ème désigner le Minyag (Tangut) - Weirong Shen (2004), p. 191

- 1227
- en outre, en me mo phag 1227, Khyungtsang-pa invite Tishri Repa au Minyag (que ce dernier avait fuit après la mort du dernier roi et devant l' avancée des Mongols) - Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 216

- c. 1230
- Sanggyé Balam-pa, Lhachug gdan sa pa 4 visite le Minyag - Deb ther dmar po, p. 135
This lines up with the Chinese versions of the timeline. This all argues that you don't really have a surviving Tangut entity much past that point, as we discussed.
if this not :offtopic: what is?
But discussions about qigong are so tedious, the Western XIa are much more interesting
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PeterC wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:41 am
But discussions about qigong are so tedious.
That’s only because we don’t have an expert from within the tradition here to elucidate.

It’s also rare to have a practitioner with deep experience in both daoist and Buddhist traditions to make some observations on similarities. You find a few in the chinese world... not so accessible for us.

But I think it’s good to keep alive the spirit of interest and passion for Qi/Prana/Tsa rLung practices in Buddhism. It’s a very powerful doorway to Dharma for some.
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:08 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:41 am
But discussions about qigong are so tedious.
That’s only because we don’t have an expert from within the tradition here to elucidate.

It’s also rare to have a practitioner with deep experience in both daoist and Buddhist traditions to make some observations on similarities. You find a few in the chinese world... not so accessible for us.
I’ve read a lot of the canon untranslated, as I’m sure have some of the other Chinese readers on this forum. It’s fun as literature, and if you’re interested in Classical Chinese art, you need familiarity with some texts. But there’s so much BS in the non-Chinese discussions of Daoism, they’re really not worth paying much attention to.
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:54 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:08 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:41 am
But discussions about qigong are so tedious.
That’s only because we don’t have an expert from within the tradition here to elucidate.

It’s also rare to have a practitioner with deep experience in both daoist and Buddhist traditions to make some observations on similarities. You find a few in the chinese world... not so accessible for us.
I’ve read a lot of the canon untranslated, as I’m sure have some of the other Chinese readers on this forum. It’s fun as literature, and if you’re interested in Classical Chinese art, you need familiarity with some texts. But there’s so much BS in the non-Chinese discussions of Daoism, they’re really not worth paying much attention to.
I mean practitioners. Neigong is something handed down in a lineage from master to disciple. It’s not something learned from books.

From what I hear, so much of daoist practice texts are in code anyway, one needs a master to show what the esoteric symbols mean within one’s own experience.

Daosit texts are actually designed to sound like nonsense to outsiders.

Maybe it seems like BS to you because you haven’t trained in an authentic lineage. Similar to how non buddhists might read about higher, esoteric aspects of Dharma and think it’s BS.
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:17 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:54 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:08 am

That’s only because we don’t have an expert from within the tradition here to elucidate.

It’s also rare to have a practitioner with deep experience in both daoist and Buddhist traditions to make some observations on similarities. You find a few in the chinese world... not so accessible for us.
I’ve read a lot of the canon untranslated, as I’m sure have some of the other Chinese readers on this forum. It’s fun as literature, and if you’re interested in Classical Chinese art, you need familiarity with some texts. But there’s so much BS in the non-Chinese discussions of Daoism, they’re really not worth paying much attention to.
I mean practitioners. Neigong is something handed down in a lineage from master to disciple. It’s not something learned from books.

From what I hear, so much of daoist practice texts are in code anyway, one needs a master to show what the esoteric symbols mean within one’s own experience.

Daosit texts are actually designed to sound like nonsense to outsiders.

Maybe it seems like BS to you because you haven’t trained in an authentic lineage. Similar to how non buddhists might read about higher, esoteric aspects of Dharma and think it’s BS.
Really there’s a lot less to it than you think. It’s dressed up as something secret and mysterious, but really there’s nothing very secret about it anymore, much like the vajrayana, it’s all out there in the original language.
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