Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

SilenceMonkey
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:24 pm
That is, monks and Chan Buddhism masters can help people cope with their mental disorders, anxiety and stresses?
I think Chan is perfectly suited for mental illness. I had some really heavy depression for a few years and zen is what brought me out of it. Pretty soon, I was never depressed again.

So it's not only masters... the technique itself is powerful.
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Budai
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Budai »

All of Buddhism can really bring one out of a state where they are a victim of their mind, to being a Spiritual Master of their mind, then to the point of full Awakening in having no more material mind and being free from the kleshas. Keep practicing and helping others do the Same, and follow the Spark within yourself to become a Buddha to the very end, to and of that renowned Path. :smile: :heart:
Last edited by Budai on Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:26 pm Understanding one’s own mind enables a better understanding of the minds of others, no telepathy needed.
Thanks I got it. That is, Chan Buddhists first study how their minds works, and then help other people's minds to cope with stress and mental suffering and come to enlightenment. It turns out that every Chan Buddhist after enlightenment can become a psychologist and help other minds to cope with their mental disorders and stresses?
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

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Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:05 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:26 pm Understanding one’s own mind enables a better understanding of the minds of others, no telepathy needed.
Thanks I got it. That is, Chan Buddhists first study how their minds works, and then help other people's minds to cope with stress and mental suffering and come to enlightenment. It turns out that every Chan Buddhist after enlightenment can become a psychologist and help other minds to cope with their mental disorders and stresses?
I don't know about that, but I can tell you as someone who works in the therapeutic world and as a student of Western psychology that Buddhist psychology and practices have had an enormous effect on these fields.

Obviously this is my biased view as a Dharma practitioner, but there are some foundational teachings from Buddhism, for instance the Four Noble Truths, The Eight Worldly Concerns, etc. that can apply to any human situation, great or small. For instance, the Four Noble Truths can be kind of 'scaled down' and applied to addiction for a treatment model, and have been. This of course is because they are universally true to all experience, but non-Buddhist patients don't need to know that or believe that to benefit from models based on these things.

You could say that the Buddhist way of approaching suffering and the mind is one of the oldest "evidenced based" psychological practices there is. There are methods in Buddhism that both encapsulate pretty much all the methods found in modern psychology, and lots of course that go beyond it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

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Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:24 pmThat is, monks and Chan Buddhism masters can help people cope with their mental disorders, anxiety and stresses?
Buddhism and psychology may be somewhat related, but as Chan is not a training to cure mental disorders it follows that those proficient in Chan may not be fit to be considered therapists, just as a psychologist is not automatically a Dharma teacher.
And the customary believers of Chan Buddhism who have enlightened their minds can help the minds of other people to come to enlightenment or is it only a master or a monk can?
One can receive beneficial teachings from anyone, but it's up to each person to put them into practice and thus gain the results.

As for the Chan way of fixing one's mind:

Bodhidharma sat facing a wall. Huike [who would be his successor] stood in the snow and cut off his arm, saying, “My mind is not at peace. Please, Teacher, pacify my mind.”
Bodhidharma said, “Bring out your mind and I will pacify it for you.”
Huike said, “When I search for my mind, ultimately it cannot be found. ”
Bodhidharma said, “I have already pacified your mind for you. ”
(Wumen's Gate, case 41, in Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 102)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

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Simply knowing that one does actually need to be fixed, that the fixing is an illusion is of great value.

In fact, this simple message is one of the most effective therapeutically I know of. It’s also the place where (some) Western psychology would differ from Chan/Zen, or Dzogchen/Tantra for that matter. However, there are some newer therapeutic schools that would be in agreement with this notion.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:05 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:26 pm Understanding one’s own mind enables a better understanding of the minds of others, no telepathy needed.
Thanks I got it. That is, Chan Buddhists first study how their minds works, and then help other people's minds to cope with stress and mental suffering and come to enlightenment. It turns out that every Chan Buddhist after enlightenment can become a psychologist and help other minds to cope with their mental disorders and stresses?
Mental Health is a noble field. It could be exhausting work, but that depends on where staff work. If we are talking about the severity and intensity of mental illness like clients in assisted living facilities, staff can only do their best to care for them. If you are talking about functioning individuals with mental illness, and they are cognitive enough to seek help from Chan, then yes.

By the way most people work as staff in the field have symptoms themselves. Including psychiatrists.
Last edited by LastLegend on Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:44 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:05 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:26 pm Understanding one’s own mind enables a better understanding of the minds of others, no telepathy needed.
Thanks I got it. That is, Chan Buddhists first study how their minds works, and then help other people's minds to cope with stress and mental suffering and come to enlightenment. It turns out that every Chan Buddhist after enlightenment can become a psychologist and help other minds to cope with their mental disorders and stresses?
Mental Health is a noble field. It could be exhausting work, that depends on where staff work. If we are talking about the severity and intensity of mental illness like clients in assisted living facilities, staff can only do their best to care for them. If you are talking about functioning individuals with mental illness, and they are cognitive enough to seek help from Chan, then yes.

By the way most people work as staff in the field have symptoms themselves. Including psychiatrists.
Estimates from 20-30% of the population have or have had mental illness symptoms, they are a normal part of life. In the same manner as physical illnesses are unavoidable for a certain number of people, so are mental illnesses. People should neither be treated as pariahs, nor should they be treated as special, that includes professionals.

For professionals, there is also an issue of vicarious trauma.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... statistics
By the way most people work as staff in the field have symptoms themselves. Including psychiatrists.
Where are you getting your information from?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Budai »

I have the view that even if someone is having trouble with their mind, with such symptoms such as depression, anxiety, mood swings, not being able to cope with reality, if they have a Compassionate Heart, they are not what I personally consider mentally ill. Those hurtful symptoms are just a part of life in today’s world, and even the Sages go through them. Even Shakyamuni went through all of the symptoms I mentioned, Upayically. Are you going to call Him mentally ill? Real mental illness is something else, and the modern world has the definition backwards. Real mental illness is what causes violence and ignorance. Sitting and meditating under a Bodhi tree and seeing mara trying to dissuade you from achieving Enlightenment is not mental illness. We must respect the mind and our Compassion for Buddha.

I highly respect your field Johnny, you help a great deal of people in what you do, and your approach with whatever Skillful Means you use will always be helpful.
Last edited by Budai on Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Arnold3000
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:15 pm Simply knowing that one does actually need to be fixed, that the fixing is an illusion is of great value.

In fact, this simple message is one of the most effective therapeutically I know of. It’s also the place where (some) Western psychology would differ from Chan/Zen, or Dzogchen/Tantra for that matter. However, there are some newer therapeutic schools that would be in agreement with this notion.
In your opinion, what is the main difference between Western psychotherapy and psychotherapy Chan / Zen, or Dzogchen / Tantra?
Thank you very much
Last edited by Arnold3000 on Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

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Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:15 pm Simply knowing that one does actually need to be fixed, that the fixing is an illusion is of great value.

In fact, this simple message is one of the most effective therapeutically I know of. It’s also the place where (some) Western psychology would differ from Chan/Zen, or Dzogchen/Tantra for that matter. However, there are some newer therapeutic schools that would be in agreement with this notion.
In your opinion, what is the main difference between Western psychotherapy and psychotherapy Chan / Zen, or Dzogchen / Tantra?
Thank you very much
Obviously I can't fully answer that here, and am not capable of answering a question like that beyond really basic impressions, it's big.

One of my main teachers is both a (Tibetan) Sakya Loppon and a Masters in Western Pysch. The way he explains it is that Western Psychology for the most part fits "within" Buddhist psychology and is smaller in scope, but sometimes pretty good with details.

For instance, some of the relative Lojong practices are very similar to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and address the same issues. The thing is that they address them from a Buddhist point of view which compared to a Western Pysch point of view has a loftier goal - one that goes way beyond worldly "well-being", though not a goal which excludes worldly well-being at all. Worldly well being is a goal in Buddhism, but it is a means to an ends.

Similarly, Western Pysch is at best agnostic about Karma and Rebirth, and so it is focused on reduction of suffering in a much narrower sense, the Buddhist view of course goes much further.

Western Pysch also sees a healthy (usually relative) "sense of self" as a positive. I don't think this is entirely in contradiction to the Buddhist view, but there are definitely areas of divergence.

So making direct one to one comparisons on that question is tough.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by desert_woodworker »

Yes, for one who is awake, knowing the minds of others is one of those things that goes with the territory.

And, traditionally, it's recognized as one of The Seven Factors of Awakening ("Enlightenment").

But, "minds", in the case of those who are not awake, means illusions, or the delusions, of those people. Because, in fact, there IS no mind. So, when those folks shake the spider-web in their way, the awakened person can interpret it, and maybe even before that, just by the way they hold their body, or show blockages.

But I doubt that there are any (or many) medical practitioners who are awakened in this way (!), who could help people in such an unorthodox, not allopathic (say... ) manner. Maybe others here have examples or evidence to the contrary, which would be nice to see.

--Joe
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

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We declare that society is infirm, not the individuals who suffer. There is no mental illness if it does not have a clear physiological base independent of changes caused by stress and tension. As a result of this declaration,
the objective of Chan Dharma Psychology becomes quite different. It is to return the natural system to its balanced and harmonious state in a manner in which it can resist the external pressures and errors of state, religion, culture, education and social norms that are alien to its growth or development.
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Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

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JieshiShan wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:53 pm We declare that society is infirm, not the individuals who suffer. There is no mental illness if it does not have a clear physiological base independent of changes caused by stress and tension. As a result of this declaration,
the objective of Chan Dharma Psychology becomes quite different. It is to return the natural system to its balanced and harmonious state in a manner in which it can resist the external pressures and errors of state, religion, culture, education and social norms that are alien to its growth or development.
Guo Gu wrote: Chan is not psychotherapy. Psychotherapy, to simplify its aim, is to clarify the self. Chan practice lets go of the self.
Passing Through the Gateless Barrier: Kōan Practice for Real Life
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