is Myo Ho Ren Ge Tathagatagarbha

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Minobu
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is Myo Ho Ren Ge Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

So from Nichiren i've recently learned that both defilement and enlightenment manifest from the Law Myo Ho Ren Ge and yet it is neither..

is this Tendai thought?

Then i posted in a thread this
Is Myo Ho Ren Ge the seed or is the seed just one other thing manifested through the Law of Myo Ho Ren Ge .

In Other words this time around under auspice of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha did He use Myo Ren Ge , to produce tathagatagarbha in sentients , or more aptly His children. yeah everything comes from MYO HO Ren Ge , but is that the actual seed?
to be clear it appears the seed is something other than just MYO HO REN GE even though all is of this Law
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Minobu
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Re: is Myo Ho Ren Ge Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

hello all.
first i would like to apologize for my lack of clarity and ...well..my grammar..i write like i talk ..which sounds scary i know..

I posted this here cause after recently finding out that Nichiren Shonin was a Tendai priest or monk i now look to you people as the gold standard in understanding what i do.
so i asked a question..roughly articulated and put it to you..i know that..

So this is the deal that i have running through me head..

what if the seed to Buddhahood is actually more of a product of a Buddha then the Law of Myo Ho Ren Ge..
i don't look at Myo Ho Ren Ge as a thing anymore, it's just a law..just? sorry Myo Ho Ren Ge ...

It's like due to this Law all of Samsara actually happens ..

now unless someone comes and says Buddha created the Law MYOHO RENGE , which I don't think anyone including me believes to be fact...It always was and Buddhas and pratyekaBuddhas became enlightened to it and somehow meld with it to the extent they can do incredible things....

Sooo is it out of compassion they created a seed to Buddhahood..or used their will to imbue the seed of Buddhahood in sentients beings under their auspice...By that i mean at this juncture it is Lord Sakyamuni who is the father, teacher , if you will, of all sentient beings He is liberating through Dharma teachings. the whole there is a certain number of like Super Buddhas who come here , like the next one is Lord Maitreya Buddha

is there any thing in Tendai that can come to terms with this stuff floating round me head..

and maybe i'm just being annoyingly ignorant ...so sorry.
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Queequeg
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Re: is Myo Ho Ren Ge Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

Its not easy to explain. Zhiyi expounded a lengthy teaching on the name of the Lotus Sutra - Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra. In that text, Zhiyi explained that the title invoking the metaphor of the Lotus is to help people understand the teaching. But, the distinction between symbol and symbolized is intimately related when we consider through the perspective of the Middle in the Three Truths teaching, so that the name and the thing carrying that name are continuous (two but not two).

He explains that there are three Lotus metaphors that explain the Trace teachings and three metaphors that explain the original teaching. Unfortunately, we don't have a complete English translation of the Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra. We have a partial translation found in Swanson's T'ie T'ai Philosophy. This translation does not include the section on the metaphors. We also have a section by section summary of the text by Haiyan Shen. There are translations of passages of the text scattered throughout academic articles and books. There are also passages translated as part of translations of Nichiren's writings because he quoted these texts in his own writings. Here's a passage contained in one of Nichiren's writings:
Question: Does the term (Lotus) renge in fact mean the lotus, that is the essence of the meditation based on the Lotus Sutra? Or does it in fact mean the ordinary lotus that is a species of plant?

Answer: It in fact refers to the lotus that is the essence of the Lotus Sutra. But because the essence of the Lotus Sutra is difficult to understand, the metaphor of the lotus plant is introduced. People of sharp faculties will hear the name and immediately grasp the principle. They have no need to rely upon a metaphor but can understand the Lotus Sutra directly. But people of intermediate or inferior perception will not understand immediately. Only through the medium of a metaphor will they be able to understand. Thus the easily understood metaphor of an actual lotus plant is used to make clear the difficult-to-understand lotus that is the essence of the Lotus Sutra.

Thus, in the Lotus Sutra the Buddha employed three cycles of preaching in accordance with the respective understanding of those of superior, intermediate, or inferior capacity. For people of superior capacity, the renge, or lotus, that is the name of the [Dharma] was taught. But, for people of intermediate or inferior capacity, the lotus was used as a metaphor or symbol. As long as one understands that the word is being used both as a name for the [Dharma] itself and as a metaphor, depending upon which of the three groups of people is being addressed, then there should be no reason to argue over it.
To say the title is the Tathagatagarbha... I suppose you can get to that interpretation since the Buddha is the Dharma, and the Dharma is the Buddha (Buddha is said to have remarked, "Whoever sees the Dhamma sees me; whoever sees me sees the Dhamma.") AFAIK, there is no prominent Tendai teaching that equates the title of the sutra with the Tathagatagarbha. The title does not carry the significance that Nichiren read into it.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: is Myo Ho Ren Ge Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

thanks QQ . Tathgatghraba will have to wait , but it is interesting that this whole thing was sparked by exactly what you said about the metaphore thing..
from Nichiren Library , The Entity of the Mystic Law



Question: The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai has explained that the term Myoho-renge is used in two different senses, one meaning the entity of Myoho-renge and the other being figurative in meaning. What are these two kinds of renge, or lotus?

Answer: The figurative renge, or lotus, is explained in detail in the three metaphors of the lotus blossom enfolding the seed, the lotus blossom opening to reveal the seed inside, and the lotus p.421blossom falling and the seed ripening, so one should refer to them. The lotus that is the entity of Myoho-renge is explained in the seventh volume of The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra as follows: “Renge, or lotus, is not a symbol; it is the actual name of the entity. For example, at the beginning of the kalpa of continuance, the various things in the world had no names. The sage observed the principles that govern them and on that basis made up names for them.” He also writes: “Now the name renge is not intended as a symbol for anything. It is the teaching expounded in the Lotus Sutra. The teaching expounded in the Lotus Sutra is pure and undefiled and explains the subtleties of cause and effect. Therefore, it is called renge, or lotus. This name designates the true entity that the meditation based on the Lotus Sutra reveals, and is not a metaphor or figurative term.”

The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai also writes: “Question: Does the term renge in fact mean the renge, or lotus, that is the essence of the meditation based on the Lotus Sutra? Or does it in fact mean the ordinary lotus that is a species of plant?

“Answer: It in fact refers to the lotus that is the essence of the Lotus Sutra. But because the essence of the Lotus Sutra is difficult to understand, the metaphor of the lotus plant is introduced. People of sharp faculties will hear the name and immediately grasp the principle. They have no need to rely upon a metaphor but can understand the Lotus Sutra directly. But people of intermediate or inferior perception will not understand immediately. Only through the medium of a metaphor will they be able to understand. Thus the easily understood metaphor of an actual lotus plant is used to make clear the difficult-to-understand lotus that is the essence of the Lotus Sutra.
I always ignored any thing TienTai due to ....well in the end me...i love this whole thing and the fact i have stuff to learn in depth...
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