Korean Buddhism and the Fifth Precept

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KiwiNFLFan
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:15 am

Korean Buddhism and the Fifth Precept

Post by KiwiNFLFan »

Hi, I'm wondering whether Korean Buddhists are strict at observing the Fifth Precept. Do they abstain from all alcohol or just make sure they don't drink enough to get drunk (I have seen that as an interpretation of the 5th Precept).

I know that Korea has a big drinking culture. Workers are expected to go for after-work drinks with their workmates, similar to Japan. How would being a Korean Buddhist fit in with this? I know that it works in Japan as the main school of Buddhism there is Jodo Shinshu, which does not require keeping any precepts as one is to trust oneself completely to the Other Power (tariki) of Amitabha Buddha, and any practices like meditation or precept-keeping are seen as Self-Power (jiriki)

Would Koreans think it strange if a Buddhist said "I'm a Buddhist. I don't drink alcohol" (저는 불교도에요. 술을 안 마셔요)?
ford_truckin
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Re: Korean Buddhism and the Fifth Precept

Post by ford_truckin »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:34 am Hi, I'm wondering whether Korean Buddhists are strict at observing the Fifth Precept. Do they abstain from all alcohol or just make sure they don't drink enough to get drunk (I have seen that as an interpretation of the 5th Precept).

I know that Korea has a big drinking culture. Workers are expected to go for after-work drinks with their workmates, similar to Japan. How would being a Korean Buddhist fit in with this? I know that it works in Japan as the main school of Buddhism there is Jodo Shinshu, which does not require keeping any precepts as one is to trust oneself completely to the Other Power (tariki) of Amitabha Buddha, and any practices like meditation or precept-keeping are seen as Self-Power (jiriki)

Would Koreans think it strange if a Buddhist said "I'm a Buddhist. I don't drink alcohol" (저는 불교도에요. 술을 안 마셔요)?
Are you concerned more about fitting in or following the Buddha's teachings? If the latter:

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

"Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans."
KiwiNFLFan
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:15 am

Re: Korean Buddhism and the Fifth Precept

Post by KiwiNFLFan »

ford_truckin wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:01 am
KiwiNFLFan wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:34 am Hi, I'm wondering whether Korean Buddhists are strict at observing the Fifth Precept. Do they abstain from all alcohol or just make sure they don't drink enough to get drunk (I have seen that as an interpretation of the 5th Precept).

I know that Korea has a big drinking culture. Workers are expected to go for after-work drinks with their workmates, similar to Japan. How would being a Korean Buddhist fit in with this? I know that it works in Japan as the main school of Buddhism there is Jodo Shinshu, which does not require keeping any precepts as one is to trust oneself completely to the Other Power (tariki) of Amitabha Buddha, and any practices like meditation or precept-keeping are seen as Self-Power (jiriki)

Would Koreans think it strange if a Buddhist said "I'm a Buddhist. I don't drink alcohol" (저는 불교도에요. 술을 안 마셔요)?
Are you concerned more about fitting in or following the Buddha's teachings? If the latter:

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

"Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans."
I understand that in Mahayana Buddhism, according to the Brahma Net Sutra, drinking alcohol is a minor offence, unlike Theravada Buddhism (although even there, many Thais I know drink booze).

I'm asking how the teachings on drinking alcohol are interpreted by Korean Buddhism. I know some forms of Zen (the dominant form of Buddhism in Korea) follow the Bodhisattva Precepts, and the precept about alcohol is framed as not abusing alcohol - i.e. not drinking to the point of getting drunk. I even remember hearing Gil Fronsdahl (Theravada, Vipassana Movement) say that not abusing alcohol is an interpretation of the Fifth Precept.
jmlee369
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Re: Korean Buddhism and the Fifth Precept

Post by jmlee369 »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:05 am I understand that in Mahayana Buddhism, according to the Brahma Net Sutra, drinking alcohol is a minor offence, unlike Theravada Buddhism (although even there, many Thais I know drink booze).

I'm asking how the teachings on drinking alcohol are interpreted by Korean Buddhism. I know some forms of Zen (the dominant form of Buddhism in Korea) follow the Bodhisattva Precepts, and the precept about alcohol is framed as not abusing alcohol - i.e. not drinking to the point of getting drunk. I even remember hearing Gil Fronsdahl (Theravada, Vipassana Movement) say that not abusing alcohol is an interpretation of the Fifth Precept.
To answer your opening question, precept observance of all precepts is quite lax in Korea. It is not uncommon for Korean Buddhists to go fishing or to harvest shellfish and crabs to eat. I know many Korean lay Buddhists, and I don't think any of them abstain from alcohol. Even with monastics, it is not uncommon for them to take alcohol, so how much less the laypeople. This isn't for any reasons of doctrine, it's simply poor discipline. Korea doesn't have doctrinal schools like they do in Japan, so you can't really apply what happens in Japanese Zen schools to Korea. Pretty much all the mainstream traditions in Korea transmit the five precepts to the laity. But if you were to decline alcohol at social events because saying you're Buddhist, they'd find it very strange and maybe not even understand your reasoning.

Regarding the bodhisattva precepts, you need to remember that you'd likely be expected to have taken the five precepts before taking the bodhisattva precepts. With regards to the Brahma Net Sutra precept on drinking alcohol, it says in the sutra:
My disciples, if you intentionally drink alcohol, there is no limit to the mistakes and violations you will make. If, with your own hand you pass the wine bottle to another drinker, you will be born without hands for five hundred lifetimes—how much worse if you drink yourself? You should not encourage any person to drink, nor any sentient being to drink alcohol; how much worse if you drink alcohol yourself ? If you intentionally drink, or encourage someone else to drink, you have committed a minor transgression.
A Korean commentary explains:
“[Born] five hundred lifetimes without hands” applies to the case where one commits this offense with the most extremely wicked intentions. This does not apply in cases where alcohol is offered to others with good intentions. When alcohol is offered with good intentions, according to the Yogâcārabhūmi it is included within the perfection of giving. As the Ten Abodes says: “When householder bodhisattvas offer alcohol, so as not to violate of their precepts, they should think like this: ‘The Dharma of the perfection of giving is to completely fill people’s aspirations; afterwards, as a skill-in-means, they should teach then to abstain from alcohol.’” As for the part from “Cannot encourage” up to “how much worse could it be for you to drink yourself;” just before the text said “how much worse could it be for you to drink yourself ” after the mention of passing the bottle. This is said secondly. By referring how bad it is to encourage others to drink, it is asked how much worse it would be for oneself to drink. “If you intentionally drink, or encourage someone else to drink” is the general summary of this offense.
[...]
In discussing the five precepts, the Sutra on Unprecedented Occurrences says: “If drinking alcohol results in the production of happiness and
wholesomeness, then drinking is not a violation.” (Source not located) This is explained there in detail. How much more in the case of the bodhisattva precepts, where when actions bring benefit to others, they are not considered violations. As the Vimalakīrti-sūtra says, “Even though he frequented the taverns, he was able to establish his determination. ” (T 475.14.539a29)
Both sutra quote and commentary are from Exposition of the Sutra of Brahma's Net

But how minor is a minor transgression? The lamrim teachings state that to break a root pratimoksha precept of a monastic creates cause for birth in Avici hell. Breaking a minor bodhisattva precept creates negative karma that is 100,000 times worse than breaking a root pratimoksha precept. When precepts are catergorised as major and minor (or root and branch) it refers to whether the violation of said precept completely destroys the basis of the precepts you have taken or not. Violate a root precept and you lose everything, whereas with a minor precept, you degenerate your precept basis but it can be restored and purified.
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