What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

dude
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by dude »

"If the Gosho is the final authority, why do you demean Shakyamuni Buddha?"


I don't have the same relationship with Shakyamuni that I have with President Ikeda and Nichiren Daishonin.
I don't understand the Lotus Sutra. I can only intuitively sense what it's really about.
For me, all these relationships are rooted entirely with my relationship to the gohonzon.

I think our salient disagreement comes from how you interpret what Nichiren said about our relationship to Shakyamuni.
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Queequeg
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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dude wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:45 am I don't have the same relationship with Shakyamuni that I have with President Ikeda and Nichiren Daishonin.
Have you considered that maybe the reason your connection to Shakyamuni is thwarted is because the teachers you rely on do not facilitate that connection?

Nichiren is pretty clear about his views of Shakyamuni... the Gohonzon is Shakyamuni...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:02 pm
dude wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:45 am I don't have the same relationship with Shakyamuni that I have with President Ikeda and Nichiren Daishonin.
Have you considered that maybe the reason your connection to Shakyamuni is thwarted is because the teachers you rely on do not facilitate that connection?

Nichiren is pretty clear about his views of Shakyamuni... the Gohonzon is Shakyamuni...
what of the other deities , and other sentients inscribed....

Would not the Gohonzon be a representation Of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha along with deities and Bodhisattvas who aid and work with Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.

I whole heartedly agree and thank you for saying this :
Have you considered that maybe the reason your connection to Shakyamuni is thwarted is because the teachers you rely on do not facilitate that connection?
the woman i met in the mid 70's and married in the Gakki would argue with me that she never felt Nichiren was the Buddha who she followed.

she kept this to herself and me, for she knew the problems it would cause in Gakki meetings and such...

Man she just knew !
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Minobu wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:20 pm what of the other deities , and other sentients inscribed....

Would not the Gohonzon be a representation Of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha along with deities and Bodhisattvas who aid and work with Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
本尊(honzon)=iṣṭa-devatā

ista-devata is defined as "a chosen tutelary deity, favourite god, one particularly worshipped"

see Digital Dictionary of Buddhism http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xp ... C%E5%B0%8A (username guest, password guest)

In Tibetan, its yidam.

The other entities depicted on the Gohonzon are there in their relationship to Shakyamuni. The whole mandala itself is a depict Shakyamuni at the ceremony in the air, attended by the BoE and other beings.

Buddha does not arise in a vacuum. Buddha only arises in response to the needs of sentient beings. Buddha can only be represented in relation to sentient beings. The other entities show the context in which Shakyamuni arises, they are not the honzon.

On some honzon, Nichiren did write 南無 namu before other entities on the honzon, but they are refuges because of their relation to Shakyamuni. BoE are worthy because they are Shakyamuni's original disciples. Same with all the other entities - they are worthy because of their relation to Shakyamuni. These relations are described in the Lotus Sutra.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
narhwal90
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Queequeg wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:02 pm
dude wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:45 am I don't have the same relationship with Shakyamuni that I have with President Ikeda and Nichiren Daishonin.
Have you considered that maybe the reason your connection to Shakyamuni is thwarted is because the teachers you rely on do not facilitate that connection?

Nichiren is pretty clear about his views of Shakyamuni... the Gohonzon is Shakyamuni...

I think thwarted might be an overstatement- I agree with dude here that my relationship with Shayamuni is not the same as that with Pres Ikeda or Nichiren. For my money, Shakyamuni is there with Taho along with the BOE conducting the Ceremony, Nichiren is the author of the gohonzon which depicts it. Pres Ikeda is sitting in there in the audience along with all of us.

There is nothing at all stopping anyone from picking up a Lotus Sutra translation, or commentary and start reading.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by dude »

We disagree on a lot of things then.

If the gohonzon is Shakyamuni then by worshipping the gohonzon I'm worshipping Shakyamuni.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Minobu »

dude wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:03 am We disagree on a lot of things then.

If the gohonzon is Shakyamuni then by worshipping the gohonzon I'm worshipping Shakyamuni.
One thing we know for certain Lord Sakyamuni Buddha said was "Do not look to any god or demon for help , not even Me . I cannot help you you have to help yourself ." which is a translation from memory and not a direct quote but you get the drift.

Namu is taking refuge, i was taught by the Gakki back in the day it meant devotion and then they would describe what type of devotion .

Worship is whole other paradigm with it's own narratives ...
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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as i overheard in a sgi meeting recently, as relating to another member, "i will chant for you but i cant do your chanting for you".
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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dude wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:03 am We disagree on a lot of things then.

If the gohonzon is Shakyamuni then by worshipping the gohonzon I'm worshipping Shakyamuni.
But you don't realize it until it's pointed out to you? Why didn't you know this? Maybe your teachers obfuscated? Why did they do that?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Queequeg wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:30 pm
dude wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:03 am We disagree on a lot of things then.

If the gohonzon is Shakyamuni then by worshipping the gohonzon I'm worshipping Shakyamuni.
But you don't realize it until it's pointed out to you? Why didn't you know this? Maybe your teachers obfuscated? Why did they do that?
In all fairness the leadership is hooked on Shoshu doctrine.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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I grew up with SGI/N.Shoshu. I know that they discourage reading sutras, including the Lotus Sutra. SGI has changed its tune somewhat, but up until the time I left which was over 10 years ago, leaders would say things like, "Oh, well, the Lotus Sutra is hard to understand. You don't have to read it. [Just read the New Human Revolution!]". And if the Lotus, or any real doctrine was brought up, there was a good chance the person leading the meeting would steer the discussion away from that. I'm actually not even sure they were completely comfortable studying gosho outside the narrow presentations in the organization's publications. They DEFINITELY discourage reading sutras other than the Lotus, and they discourage any kind of study of other Buddhist teachings, explaining that its all been superseded by Nichiren. If you hear of Nagarjuna its only to say he's outdated Buddhism.

SG has their doctrines, and they serve their ends. It is what it is. But if you find yourself in SGI and wondering why you never hear Shakyamuni discussed... I will let you in on something... its on purpose.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Queequeg wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:40 pm I grew up with SGI/N.Shoshu. I know that they discourage reading sutras, including the Lotus Sutra. SGI has changed its tune somewhat, but up until the time I left which was over 10 years ago, leaders would say things like, "Oh, well, the Lotus Sutra is hard to understand. You don't have to read it. [Just read the New Human Revolution!]". And if the Lotus, or any real doctrine was brought up, there was a good chance the person leading the meeting would steer the discussion away from that. I'm actually not even sure they were completely comfortable studying gosho outside the narrow presentations in the organization's publications. They DEFINITELY discourage reading sutras other than the Lotus, and they discourage any kind of study of other Buddhist teachings, explaining that its all been superseded by Nichiren. If you hear of Nagarjuna its only to say he's outdated Buddhism.

SG has their doctrines, and they serve their ends. It is what it is. But if you find yourself in SGI and wondering why you never hear Shakyamuni discussed... I will let you in on something... its on purpose.
I know .....it's so sad....i've come to the conclusion it's all happening for a reason..

the True Knowledge of what we practice is available to anyone with a computer and the fearless will to seek the truth.

it was weird...i was very close to Gohonzon before i slandered the hell out of it...i don't recommend ever to put aside certain fears about this practice...Really incredible good stuff happened for me BIG TIME back in the day....all whilst in SGI ....So don't ever think Gohonzon entities do not work for people in SGI..Or that SGI members are not accessing their Buddha Nature as promised by Nichiren Shonin and laid out by Him..

Alas i'm living the experience of slandering the LAW ....and the Lotus Sutra...and then some.....

But I recall and this is insanely pathetic...certain group leaders would visit members and gang up on them and bully them into tossing out other religious books, even books on philosophy.... it's true i could name names....but hey not all were asshole brainwashed minions...

So ...maybe it's all part and parcel for one's growth...TRUE GROWTH that is...

all this nightmare is there to be experienced and learned in order to really know what we are doing here on this planet in this universe with the Gohonzon.....It's all good in the end ...any relationship with gohonzon is better than none...

It's amazing i can have this discussion and people out there really get it ...i would not be able to even bring myself to read this , back in the day ...

i was a fanatic...a really good one...been there done that lost the wife and kid.... :emb:


I'm gratefull to the internet and people like Q and others here for saving my sanity and giving me direction and understanding.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Queequeg wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:40 pm I grew up with SGI/N.Shoshu. I know that they discourage reading sutras, including the Lotus Sutra. SGI has changed its tune somewhat, but up until the time I left which was over 10 years ago, leaders would say things like, "Oh, well, the Lotus Sutra is hard to understand. You don't have to read it. [Just read the New Human Revolution!]". And if the Lotus, or any real doctrine was brought up, there was a good chance the person leading the meeting would steer the discussion away from that. I'm actually not even sure they were completely comfortable studying gosho outside the narrow presentations in the organization's publications. They DEFINITELY discourage reading sutras other than the Lotus, and they discourage any kind of study of other Buddhist teachings, explaining that its all been superseded by Nichiren. If you hear of Nagarjuna its only to say he's outdated Buddhism.

SG has their doctrines, and they serve their ends. It is what it is. But if you find yourself in SGI and wondering why you never hear Shakyamuni discussed... I will let you in on something... its on purpose.

I'm in general agreement with this assessment. I've been conducting an experiment for the last year or so, at suitable times (generally 1 on 1 or in a small group not as part of a meeting) discussing other schools & sutras, various points, history of Tendai and so on, to see what the response is. So far I've found a few people who are interested in talking about that kind of thing, mostly people don't care since I am also affirming Nichiren and the practice. So far I've only gotten one weird look when I said I was reading the Lotus Sutra (from the SGI online library).
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Yeah, Minobu, I don't know if its the thing we knew it to be. Seems to have changed. Maybe Narwahl can speak to that. One thing about those days, they might have been single minded, but they took that advice "without begrudging your life" seriously. That was good and bad - dharma at that level of intensity is no joke.

As best I can gather, SGI more or less follows this framework, quite litereally:
From Shishin Gohon sho:
Question: Why do you not advocate the meditation on the three thousand realms in a single moment of life, but instead simply encourage the chanting of the daimoku?

Answer: The two characters that comprise the name Japan contain within them all the people and animals and wealth in the sixty-six provinces of the country, without a single omission. And the two characters that make up the name India—do they not likewise contain within them all the seventy countries of India? Miao-lo says, “When for the sake of brevity one mentions only the daimoku, or title, the entire sutra is by implication included therein.” He also says, “When for the sake of brevity we speak of the Ten Worlds or the ten factors, the three thousand realms are perfectly encompassed therein.”

When Bodhisattva Manjushrī and the Venerable Ānanda came to compile all the words spoken by the Buddha at the three assemblies during the eight years [in which the Lotus Sutra was preached], they wrote down the title Myoho-renge-kyo, and to show their understanding [that the entire sutra is contained in these five characters], they proceeded with the words “This is what I heard.”

Question: If a person simply chants Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with no understanding of its meaning, are the benefits of understanding thereby included?

Answer: When a baby drinks milk, it has no understanding of its taste, and yet its body is naturally nourished. Who ever took the wonderful medicines of Jīvaka knowing of what they were compounded? Water has no intent, and yet it can put out fire. Fire consumes things, and yet how can we say that it does so consciously? This is the explanation of both Nāgārjuna and T’ien-t’ai, and I am restating it here.

Question: Why do you say that all teachings are contained within the daimoku?

Answer: Chang-an writes: “Hence [T’ien-t’ai’s explanation of the title in] the preface conveys the profound meaning of the sutra. The profound meaning indicates the heart of the text, and the heart of the text encompasses the whole of the theoretical and essential teachings.” And Miao-lo writes, “On the basis of the heart of the text of the Lotus Sutra, one can evaluate all the other various teachings of the Buddha.”

Though muddy water has no mind, it can catch the moon’s reflection and so naturally becomes clear. When plants and trees receive the rainfall, they can hardly be aware of what they are doing, and yet do they not proceed to put forth blossoms? The five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo do not represent the sutra text, nor are they its meaning. They are nothing other than the intent of the entire sutra. So, even though the beginners in Buddhist practice may not understand their significance, by practicing these five characters, they will naturally conform to the sutra’s intent.

Question: When your disciples, without any understanding, simply recite with their mouths the words Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, what level of attainment do they reach?

Answer: Not only do they go beyond the highest level of the four flavors and three teachings, as well as that attained by practitioners of the perfect teaching set forth in the sutras that precede the Lotus Sutra, but they surpass by a hundred, thousand, ten thousand, million times the founders of the True Word and various other schools of Buddhism, such as Shan-wu-wei, Chih-yen, Tz’u-en, Chi-tsang, Tao-hsüan, Bodhidharma, and Shan-tao.

Therefore, I entreat the people of this country: Do not look down upon my disciples! If you inquire into their past, you will find that they are great bodhisattvas who have given alms to Buddhas over a period of eight hundred thousand million kalpas, and who have carried out practices under Buddhas as numerous as the sands of the Hiranyavati and Ganges rivers. And if we speak of the future, they will be endowed with the benefit of the fiftieth person, surpassing that of one who gave alms to innumerable living beings for a period of eighty years. They are like an infant emperor wrapped in swaddling clothes, or a great dragon who has just been born. Do not despise them! Do not look on them with contempt!

Miao-lo writes, “Those who vex or trouble [the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra] will have their heads split into seven pieces, but those who give alms to them will enjoy good fortune surpassing the ten honorable titles.” King Udayana behaved insolently toward the Venerable Pindolabhāradvāja, and within seven years lost his life. The lord of Sagami condemned Nichiren to exile, and within a hundred days armed rebellion broke out in his domain.

The sutra says: “If anyone sees a person who accepts and upholds this sutra and tries to expose the faults or evils of that person, whether what he speaks is true or not, he will in his present existence be afflicted with white leprosy. . . . and other severe and malignant illnesses.” It also says, “That person will be born eyeless in existence after existence.”

Myōshin and Enchi contracted white leprosy in their present lifetime, while Dōamidabutsu lost his sight. The epidemics that afflict our nation are punishments of the kind described as “the head being split into seven pieces.” And if we surmise the degree of benefit according to the degree of punishment, then there can be no doubt that my followers “will enjoy good fortune surpassing the ten honorable titles.”
The irony is, to really appreciate that passage, you need to have a command of all these references he makes. The basic message is obvious. There is the argument that all those references are like the extraneous questions asked while the poisoned arrow remains in the eye. The problem I had was, I actually wanted to understand this and no one in SGI could explain it to me. Maybe should just deal with the arrow in my eye.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Well Q it's like this for me.
There are teachings from Nichiren Shonin meant for the general uneducated public to bring them into the mainstream Buddhist healing thing..I think thats what really got Him in trouble both from earthly powers and the forces that keep us confused when taking up the path. It's like going against the grain of evil...Mara at Mara's best.



..and there are teachings advanced only a person educated enough to teach....in other words a teaching for peasants and a teachings for the ordained and learning to be ordained.

I think the real power is in the fact both are important for the sentients dwelling during Mappo. and they unfolded perfectly...even if history says they are not.

I actually have no gripes about SGI and I at the same time can enter Gripe City quite easily...lol....fun times.

but i indeed thank people like you and narhwal90 ...narhwal90 is the epitome of an honest seeking loyal SGI member..i mean wow... the dude must have the eye of heaven on him.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by dude »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:30 pm
dude wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:03 am We disagree on a lot of things then.

If the gohonzon is Shakyamuni then by worshipping the gohonzon I'm worshipping Shakyamuni.
But you don't realize it until it's pointed out to you? Why didn't you know this? Maybe your teachers obfuscated? Why did they do that?
I said "if."
I don't believe the Gohonzon is Shakyamuni.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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dude wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 3:36 am
Queequeg wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:30 pm
dude wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:03 am We disagree on a lot of things then.

If the gohonzon is Shakyamuni then by worshipping the gohonzon I'm worshipping Shakyamuni.
But you don't realize it until it's pointed out to you? Why didn't you know this? Maybe your teachers obfuscated? Why did they do that?
I said "if."
I don't believe the Gohonzon is Shakyamuni.
It is and it isn't.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Queequeg wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 12:56 pm
dude wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 3:36 am
Queequeg wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:30 pm

But you don't realize it until it's pointed out to you? Why didn't you know this? Maybe your teachers obfuscated? Why did they do that?
I said "if."
I don't believe the Gohonzon is Shakyamuni.
It is and it isn't.
IT IS .

Without it Being Lord Sakyamuni Buddha it would just be a historic account of the ceremony in the air.

what makes it Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Daimoku...

Faith enhances the relationship between the practitioner and Lord Sakyamuni Buddha..

therefore IT IS
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Well, the Gohonzon is a picture of the entire dynamic scene of the Ceremony in the Air, so in a sense, its not just Shakyamuni. But, no Shakyamuni, no Lotus Sutra. The Ceremony in the Air is where Shakyamuni teaches the Lotus Sutra and entrusts it to the Assembly.

Just as Shakyamuni needs context, so does the Gohonzon. Nichiren taught Three Great Secret Laws - not just Daimoku and Gohonzon. There is also the Kaidan - the place where the practitioner attends the Ceremony in the Air and receives the Lotus Sutra from Shakyamuni. That relates to the faith Minobu refers to.

If the Gohonzon is not Shakyamuni, then there is no transmission of the Lotus Sutra in Nichiren practice.

There's more to it also. Sitting in the Kaidan goes beyond any literal analysis. At that point, understanding ichinen sanzen is critical.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 5:07 pm
If the Gohonzon is not Shakyamuni, then there is no transmission of the Lotus Sutra in Nichiren practice.
which is why the whole thing is happening for sentients caught in samsaric cycle .

The thing is this...i think ..and this is just me...that just because Shoshu decided Nichiren was the Primordial Buddha which is also Original Enlightenment , the practitioner does not fail to enter the Stream ...it's a human frailty thing and not a hindrance to The Medicine reaching the person trapped in a false view.

I mean there are so many after effects of Mara ....and any one of them would not hinder some sentient taking up the correct practice in Mappo. hinder in the sense the Medicine is ineffective. It's like we don;t know the nuts and bolts of the practice and how it works...but it still does work.

i believe this and see it this way....but hey ! i'm just some Canuk hosehead ...so don't rely on me...
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