Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:30 pm You really gonna jump into a thread about the serious sexual abuse of women and conflate it as some kind of pie in the sky Polyanna-ism? What a crap thing to do. Focus on the fact that women are actually being abused, and not whatever bone you are picking at.
For me there are a few issues here. The first is that people have been hurt. That’s bad.

The second is that the aforementioned hurt came from a betrayal of a trust. And not just any trust. The betrayal came from a source that we, as practitioners, should train to trust unconditionally. That betrayal then closes the door to Dharma, which makes it even worse. (NB my signature.) The Hollywood casting couch has been taking advantage of people’s ambition towards the 8 worldly dharmas. Although it may look similar, that is trivial compared to taking advantage of someone’s Dharma aspirations.

Next is the idea that at some point in one’s practice of Dharma a person has to address the problem and limitation of their own defective vision. The First Noble Truth teaches us that life cannot be made “right” by our standards. That is what my post specifically addressed.

It doesn’t stop there. The emptiness teachings tell us that we do not understand how things really are, and that we are not to be attached to our views.

The tantric teachings tell us that the samsara we see is at the same time a Buddha Field. If we don’t see it, it is because of the darkness in our own eyes.

Dzogchen says that everything is nothing other than the appearance of Primordial Purity, and that everything is “perfect just as it is.” Why do we not see that?

And all this first gets enacted in the Guru Yoga, by putting aside our own criticisms and objections. It is still a necessary foundation for HYT. These events do not negate that.

Recently HHK (OT) said, “The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now.” (2/4/18 NYC)

So yes, I acknowledge that people have been hurt. But I also believe that self-righteous indignation precludes Dharma from manifesting in life. That is investing yourself into cyclic existence.

YMMV.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

smcj wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:22 am )

So yes, I acknowledge that people have been hurt. But I also believe that self-righteous indignation precludes Dharma from manifesting in life. That is investing yourself into cyclic existence.

YMMV.

Where is the self-righteous indignation? Can you explain why it is you are so concerned with, I don't know, some vague or nebulous issue about presentation or tone of someone wanting to address institutionalized sexual abuse, and seemingly less concerned with the abuse itself?

Seriously, if you're willing to jump into a thread on this subject, and then bemoan the terrible results that will come from people addressing sexual abuse, I would *really* like you to cough up some specifics of why you think addressing said abuse is a problem, and in what way, rather than replying in such vague terms.
And all this first gets enacted in the Guru Yoga, by putting aside our own criticisms and objections. It is still a necessary foundation for HYT. These events do not negate that.
How many people do you think there are involved in this discussion that are not already familiar with the basic concepts of samaya? It would be nice if the finger-wagging about samaya could stop and you could explain what exactly you object to about people responding to abuse.

You may actually have some valid points, there are issues with "cleaning house" in institutions, and with all these things coming to light generally, it''s not black and white... but this thing where you are beating around the bush and simply saying "oh but you gotta accept your Guru etc. etc." is silly, everyone in this thread is already familiar with Vajrayana and you are doing nothing by reminding people that Vajrayana is still Vajrayana, abuse or no. It's also a pretty meaningless thing to state,so *please clarify what it is you have an issue with, specifically, in the way the subject is being addressed.*

BTW, the Eight Worldy Dharmas can certainly be found just as much in ossified, blinkered institutions, their indifference to suffering, and their poor ways of addressing it, as much as they can in the failings of individual practitioners. In fact, from my personal point of view, most religious institutions suffer from exactly such problems, and simply using samaya as a reason to deflect criticism of traditional religious institutions seems like a bad argument.

So, devotions for one's Guru should not be conflated with devotion to an institution which plenty of times has served the Eight Worldly Dharmas. Then map is not the territory, and you appear to be saying that the solution to abuse is simply for people to have greater reverence for their maps. In fact, in the case of abusive Gurus, the map is counterfeit in the first place.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by muni »

smcj wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:22 am
For me there are a few issues here. The first is that people have been hurt. That’s bad.

The second is that the aforementioned hurt came from a betrayal of a trust. And not just any trust. The betrayal came from a source that we, as practitioners, should train to trust unconditionally. That betrayal then closes the door to Dharma, which makes it even worse. (NB my signature.) The Hollywood casting couch has been taking advantage of people’s ambition towards the 8 worldly dharmas. Although it may look similar, that is trivial compared to taking advantage of someone’s Dharma aspirations.

Next is the idea that at some point in one’s practice of Dharma a person has to address the problem and limitation of their own defective vision. The First Noble Truth teaches us that life cannot be made “right” by our standards. That is what my post specifically addressed.

It doesn’t stop there. The emptiness teachings tell us that we do not understand how things really are, and that we are not to be attached to our views.

The tantric teachings tell us that the samsara we see is at the same time a Buddha Field. If we don’t see it, it is because of the darkness in our own eyes.

Dzogchen says that everything is nothing other than the appearance of Primordial Purity, and that everything is “perfect just as it is.” Why do we not see that?

And all this first gets enacted in the Guru Yoga, by putting aside our own criticisms and objections. It is still a necessary foundation for HYT. These events do not negate that.

Recently HHK (OT) said, “The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now.” (2/4/18 NYC)

So yes, I acknowledge that people have been hurt. But I also believe that self-righteous indignation precludes Dharma from manifesting in life. That is investing yourself into cyclic existence.

YMMV.
You seem to talk about our samsaric habits to see faults with others. ( The Confusion of Dualism) Compassion is not partial.

What can be done to prevent abuse, which possibly keeps us away from help to be freed of confusion? Perhaps some advice like by HH:


The advice to study for oneself first genuinely and when mind-heart is ready/calling for a master, the master appears, or it is time to find the master with whom there is a very necessary connection. This is not the same as a famous name-appearance. This advice, to study first for oneself H H Dalai Lama gave.


Buddha said do not rely on my words because I say it or because of any other reason but check it out. We use to trust famous names-famous appearances. But it is possible there is no very connection with the master.


When people go into a center with the idea to trust everything there blindly and trust all a teacher says, yes, that is certainly not what Buddha said. He said to check for yourself, what helps, in order to be freed from your self-idea-suffering ( Four Noble Truths example). But at the other side without trust, there is no faith nor devotion possible ( not devotion in a person but in what master is representing). I mean , whatever master is not the master for us, there must be a connection, a holy click I dare say, not just an appearance-name with high references. And such an (enlightened) master ( they use to say they are not) will not expect us to do things harmful for our awakening at all, or what we are not able to/ not ready for, that speaks for itself. All other teachers can as well be respected but from them neither everything must be swallowed if it is not possible to apply for liberation of our biased views.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Mundane mind, samsara, unawareness, and marigpa are all synonyms. This includes all criticisms and opinions, even well intentioned politically correct opinions. At some point in the practice of Dharma one has to go beyond that.

This is not to say suffering that can be eased should be ignored. Far from it. But if that kind of mind is itself the ultimate source of the mistake that creates suffering we shouldn’t expect to shoehorn Dharma into the limitations of what unawareness finds acceptable.

In terms of the present #metoo dramas the die has already been cast. Lawsuits will force the issue to conform to acceptable societal norms. Harping on it here does no benefit. In the present discussion what I see as being important is adding the asterisk that says, “...but there’s a whole lot more to it than that.” Evidently that’s a very unpopular thing to do.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

smcj wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:43 pm
In terms of the present #metoo dramas the die has already been cast. Lawsuits will force the issue to conform to acceptable societal norms. Harping on it here does no benefit. In the present discussion what I see as being important is adding the asterisk that says, “...but there’s a whole lot more to it than that.” Evidently that’s a very unpopular thing to do.

Do you think there's anyone here who doesn't know "there’s a whole lot more to it than that"?

In my opinion it's condescending and dismissive to approach the thread in the way you are, so that's probably why your response is "unpopular".
Harping on it here does no benefit.
So, basically, you refuse to address specifics, but feel some sense of indignation yourself that no one is appreciative of your "asterisk"??

You aren't actually saying anything but seem to be chastising others for talking, small wonder you feel your message is not being accepted.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

You aren't actually saying anything but seem to be chastising others for talking,
Do you see benefit in re-hashing lama dramas? How so?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by gb9810 »

Palzang Jangchub wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:29 pm My initial read of your response was that you were accusing me of being a Shambhala apologist of some sort, coming to his defense.
ah, sorry if it offended.. it was more a light-hearted teasing than anything. don't disagree at all with your overall messages and understand the sentiment too. It was just a bit funny reading the original message, as it almost sounded like suggesting we should keep the bathwater because of the baby.. cheers.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

smcj wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:53 pm
You aren't actually saying anything but seem to be chastising others for talking,
Do you see benefit in re-hashing lama dramas? How so?

I'm just asking you to define what exactly your issue is with the thread, or with the handling of the scandals generally.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Mr. G »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:03 am
smcj wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:53 pm
You aren't actually saying anything but seem to be chastising others for talking,
Do you see benefit in re-hashing lama dramas? How so?

I'm just asking you to define what exactly your issue is with the thread, or with the handling of the scandals generally.
He wants to sweep it all under the rug and maintain the status quo.
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Matt J »

I do. It helps create a culture where this type of behavior is deemed publicly unacceptable.
smcj wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:53 pm
You aren't actually saying anything but seem to be chastising others for talking,
Do you see benefit in re-hashing lama dramas? How so?
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I'm just asking you to define what exactly your issue is with the thread, or with the handling of the scandals generally.
Secular/unaware view vs Vajrayana/enlightened view.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Aryjna »

smcj wrote: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:48 pm
I'm just asking you to define what exactly your issue is with the thread, or with the handling of the scandals generally.
Political correctness/secular view vs Vajrayana/Dharma view.
There is no contradiction of this kind in any of the 'lama' abuse cases, because the teachers in question are not actual lamas, as is evident from their behavior.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »


Political correctness/secular view vs Vajrayana/Dharma view.
There is no contradiction of this kind in any of the 'lama' abuse cases, because the teachers in question are not actual lamas, as is evident from their behavior.
Mahayana sees everything as positive, as opportunity to practice Dharma. Vajrayana sees the world as a Buddha Field, and all beings as Buddhas. There are no judgments or criticisms in the Dharmakaya, not even any thought processes. All there is, is love, wisdom and complete freedom.

Samsaric mind is full of judgments, criticisms, and finding fault. And then samsaric mind turns that negativity into enjoyment by actuating it as speech, by gossiping.

I’m not defending anyone. But Dharma will never be squeezed down into something acceptable to the judgmental criteria of the secular mind. This thread is a good place to make that point.
I do. It helps create a culture where this type of behavior is deemed publicly unacceptable
If you actually have an altruistic motivation, then fine. If not, well then...
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Aryjna »

smcj wrote: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:21 pm

Political correctness/secular view vs Vajrayana/Dharma view.
There is no contradiction of this kind in any of the 'lama' abuse cases, because the teachers in question are not actual lamas, as is evident from their behavior.
Mahayana sees everything as positive, as opportunity to practice Dharma. Vajrayana sees the world as a Buddha Field, and all beings as Buddhas. There are no judgments or criticisms in the Dharmakaya, not even any thought processes. All there is, is love, wisdom and complete freedom.

Samsaric mind is full of judgments, criticisms, and finding fault. And then samsaric mind turns that negativity into enjoyment by actuating it as speech, by gossiping.
The beginning of Vajrayana practice is empowerment, and an empowerment by an unqualified master sends you to hell (him too of course). The discussion here is very useful for those who may consider the masters mentioned in these scandals as potential vajra masters. So this thread is actually very beneficial to the dharma if seen in this light.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

smcj wrote: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:21 pmI’m not defending anyone. But Dharma will never be squeezed down into something acceptable to the judgmental criteria of the secular mind. This thread is a good place to make that point.
Is it? I thought it is a thread about a teacher who instead of practising what he preaches (or ought to preach) betrayed the Dharma and hurt people who put their faith in him. Sakyong's behaviour is quite unacceptable when seen through the lenses of the Dharma, you know.

I would reckon that the vast majority of behaviours that the secular Western mind rejects are equally inadmissible from the perspective of the Dharma. That dualism does not help here in the least.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

smcj wrote: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:48 pm
I'm just asking you to define what exactly your issue is with the thread, or with the handling of the scandals generally.
Secular/unaware view vs Vajrayana/enlightened view.
How is simply addressing abuse an "unenlightened" or secular view?

If you want to talk about how the abuse is addressed, fine, lots of moving parts to that discussion. However, the implication that Buddhist communities addressing abuse of and within itself is "secular" or "unenlightened" is a nonsensical argument.

Are you actually saying the abuse shouldn't be addressed? If not, then what are you saying? My patience is really running thing with the vagueness and reliance straw men.
acceptable to the judgmental criteria of the secular mind.
Do you really think it requires a frak "secular mind" to address abuse?

Again, please clarify what you are saying, do you believe it's somehow un-Buddhist or "secular" to address abuse, and are you suggesting that communities simply shouldn't address it? If that is not what you are saying, then please clarify your actual criticisms of what is happening, instead of relying on these vague, undefined dichotomies.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The beginning of Vajrayana practice is empowerment, and an empowerment by an unqualified master sends you to hell (him too of course). The discussion here is very useful for those who may consider the masters mentioned in these scandals as potential vajra masters. So this thread is actually very beneficial to the dharma if seen in this light.
I’m no fan of the lamas mentioned here. But what of someone like the previous Kalu R? He was the real deal, and his name has been dragged through the mud.

I’ve speculated elsewhere that perhaps Vajrayana should not be taught to westerners. If it comes to the point where secularism triumphs over Vajrayana view I will feel certain of it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

smcj wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:22 amDzogchen says that everything is nothing other than the appearance of Primordial Purity, and that everything is “perfect just as it is.” Why do we not see that?
Why indeed? A most interesting question.

While we are pondering the reason for our falling into marigpa it might be a good idea to remember that seeing everything as perfect-just-as-it-is by no means entails becoming a drooling moron who passively accepts whatever happens to them or anybody else but rather means one discovers oneself to be the perfect vessel for enlightened activity. And while I am the first to concede that I am nowhere near becoming realised it strikes me as just as obvious that brainwashing oneself into a state of complacent passivity is certain not to get one any closer to anything like realisation.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by LolCat »

smcj wrote: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:21 pm

Political correctness/secular view vs Vajrayana/Dharma view.
There is no contradiction of this kind in any of the 'lama' abuse cases, because the teachers in question are not actual lamas, as is evident from their behavior.
Mahayana sees everything as positive, as opportunity to practice Dharma. Vajrayana sees the world as a Buddha Field, and all beings as Buddhas. There are no judgments or criticisms in the Dharmakaya, not even any thought processes. All there is, is love, wisdom and complete freedom.

Samsaric mind is full of judgments, criticisms, and finding fault. And then samsaric mind turns that negativity into enjoyment by actuating it as speech, by gossiping.

I’m not defending anyone. But Dharma will never be squeezed down into something acceptable to the judgmental criteria of the secular mind. This thread is a good place to make that point.
I do. It helps create a culture where this type of behavior is deemed publicly unacceptable
If you actually have an altruistic motivation, then fine. If not, well then...
A question from a fledgling practitioner:
Doesn't this view make vajrayana practice incompatible not just with a secular view, but with any view at all?

Unless someone is completely realized, they are going to be making judgements, and if they are completely realized then the practice is pointless.

Surely Tibetans also suffer from samsaric mind, even if it manifests in a different form?

Are there any stories at all about people dealing with charlatans in old Tibet and ancient India, or did they unquestionly follow absolutely anyone and everyone claiming to be a guru? This is a genuine question, not rhetoric, I really don't know.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Dzogchen says that everything is nothing other than the appearance of Primordial Purity, and that everything is “perfect just as it is.” Why do we not see that?
You keep bringing this up, but it's a very sophomoric point, which anyone with a very basic knowledge of Dzogchen can answer by directing you to any number of quotes from Padmasambhava etc. on the importance of conduct. In short, the Dzogchen view does not mean viewing harm as non-harm or not having discrimination in one's ethics and conduct.

In a great irony, you seem to be advocating the Dzogchen view as moral relativism, but apparently selectively, only when it comes to criticizing Lamas.
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