Denying existence is once again denying the valid perceptions of worldly people. If something is established by valid cognition, it exists and functions.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:01 pmNo one ever said otherwise. But once any assertion is made regarding ontological status of phenomena, worldly people cling to existing phenomena, and this is incorrect, and in fact, the mistake at which Madhyamaka takes aim. Not an “inherent existence” which is somehow parsed from the phenomenon itself, but the mere phenomenon.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:56 pmOkay, great. If we let appearances be, they appear to possess their own characteristics and nature which are reliably known by worldly people.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:40 pm Who denied valid cognition or cause and effect? Not me! You assume wrongly. I merely point out that all of that is relative or conventional “truth “ which is the experience of sentient beings. These things are not established truly at all. Things appear, there are true and false seeming appearances to sentient beings depending on causes and conditions, but there is no need whatsoever to ascribe ANY ontological status to the seeming....in fact, it is prapanca in my view. Just let appearances be. No need to elaborate.
Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
- Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
One does not negate the perceptions of ordinary people; one leads them, through analysis, to understand the things they imagine are real and inherent are illusory and dependent.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:04 pmDenying existence is once again denying the valid perceptions of worldly people. If something is established by valid cognition, it exists and functions.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:01 pmNo one ever said otherwise. But once any assertion is made regarding ontological status of phenomena, worldly people cling to existing phenomena, and this is incorrect, and in fact, the mistake at which Madhyamaka takes aim. Not an “inherent existence” which is somehow parsed from the phenomenon itself, but the mere phenomenon.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:56 pm
Okay, great. If we let appearances be, they appear to possess their own characteristics and nature which are reliably known by worldly people.
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Denying existence is not equivalent to affirming nonexistence, first of all....let’s get that out of the way.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:04 pmDenying existence is once again denying the valid perceptions of worldly people. If something is established by valid cognition, it exists and functions.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:01 pmNo one ever said otherwise. But once any assertion is made regarding ontological status of phenomena, worldly people cling to existing phenomena, and this is incorrect, and in fact, the mistake at which Madhyamaka takes aim. Not an “inherent existence” which is somehow parsed from the phenomenon itself, but the mere phenomenon.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:56 pm
Okay, great. If we let appearances be, they appear to possess their own characteristics and nature which are reliably known by worldly people.
Worldly people assume existence. Analaysis is the remedy. Worldly people do not assume a category of “existence” which is conceptually elaborated by scholars. Perception does not prove existence, as you must know. It is the conceptual workings of mind which assumes ontological identity with regard to phenomena.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Good folks, you will not persuade a person who will quote, sometimes verbatim, from a single source in response to every point and dare not do otherwise.
I guess I 'impute' that every time the plagiarisms of the mummified gyalpo worshipper are quoted, so I may be a little biased because appearance to mind, to me, is of no valid cogniser being present at all.
I guess I 'impute' that every time the plagiarisms of the mummified gyalpo worshipper are quoted, so I may be a little biased because appearance to mind, to me, is of no valid cogniser being present at all.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
- Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Do you have any actual contribution to this discussion other than nasty sectarian bias?Mantrik wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:24 pm Good folks, you will not persuade a person who will quote, sometimes verbatim, from a single source in response to every point and dare not do otherwise.
I guess I 'impute' that every time the plagiarisms of the mummified gyalpo worshipper are quoted, so I may be a little biased because appearance to mind, to me, is of no valid cogniser being present at all.
Cheers!
- Tsongkhapafan
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- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
So things exist in some kind of Twilight Zone between existence and non-existence.....um, right....that's conceptually elaborated by scholars and unrelated to the experiences of worldly people fo sho!conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:12 pm
Denying existence is not equivalent to affirming nonexistence, first of all....let’s get that out of the way.
Worldly people assume existence. Analaysis is the remedy. Worldly people do not assume a category of “existence” which is conceptually elaborated by scholars. Perception does not prove existence, as you must know. It is the conceptual workings of mind which assumes ontological identity with regard to phenomena.
Inherent existence is how people see things. To put it more simply, they are the things that people normally see.
You're right that perception per se does not prove existence, but valid perception does.
- Tsongkhapafan
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- conebeckham
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- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Inherent existence is not the object of negation, no matter how you would like it to be.....it’s also not “how people see things,” and perception, whether valid or not, does not prove anything. It is the mental consciousness which elaborates perceptions and misconstrues existence.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:45 pmSo things exist in some kind of Twilight Zone between existence and non-existence.....um, right....that's conceptually elaborated by scholars and unrelated to the experiences of worldly people fo sho!conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:12 pm
Denying existence is not equivalent to affirming nonexistence, first of all....let’s get that out of the way.
Worldly people assume existence. Analaysis is the remedy. Worldly people do not assume a category of “existence” which is conceptually elaborated by scholars. Perception does not prove existence, as you must know. It is the conceptual workings of mind which assumes ontological identity with regard to phenomena.
Inherent existence is how people see things. To put it more simply, they are the things that people normally see.
You're right that perception per se does not prove existence, but valid perception does.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
At least we agree on this much.
- Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Okay, that's fine. This is a difference in our spiritual traditions so we simply agree to disagree.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:58 pmInherent existence is not the object of negation, no matter how you would like it to be.....it’s also not “how people see things,” and perception, whether valid or not, does not prove anything. It is the mental consciousness which elaborates perceptions and misconstrues existence.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:45 pmSo things exist in some kind of Twilight Zone between existence and non-existence.....um, right....that's conceptually elaborated by scholars and unrelated to the experiences of worldly people fo sho!conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:12 pm
Denying existence is not equivalent to affirming nonexistence, first of all....let’s get that out of the way.
Worldly people assume existence. Analaysis is the remedy. Worldly people do not assume a category of “existence” which is conceptually elaborated by scholars. Perception does not prove existence, as you must know. It is the conceptual workings of mind which assumes ontological identity with regard to phenomena.
Inherent existence is how people see things. To put it more simply, they are the things that people normally see.
You're right that perception per se does not prove existence, but valid perception does.
- Tsongkhapafan
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- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
I think we agree on many points, but not generally on the meaning of the profound path. However, that's normal because there is no real controversy concerning the method practices, only concerning the meaning of ultimate truth.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:33 pmAt least we agree on this much.
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
What cone is saying is that inherent existence is not an object that can be negated because it is like the son of a barren women, what is negated is the erroneous perception of inherent existence.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:33 pmOkay, that's fine. This is a difference in our spiritual traditions so we simply agree to disagree.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:58 pmInherent existence is not the object of negation, no matter how you would like it to be.....it’s also not “how people see things,” and perception, whether valid or not, does not prove anything. It is the mental consciousness which elaborates perceptions and misconstrues existence.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:45 pm
So things exist in some kind of Twilight Zone between existence and non-existence.....um, right....that's conceptually elaborated by scholars and unrelated to the experiences of worldly people fo sho!
Inherent existence is how people see things. To put it more simply, they are the things that people normally see.
You're right that perception per se does not prove existence, but valid perception does.
- Tsongkhapafan
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
I see, I didn't get that implication. I thought he was saying that the object of negation was existence not inherent existence.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:37 pmWhat cone is saying is that inherent existence is not an object that can be negated because it is like the son of a barren women, what is negated is the erroneous perception of inherent existence.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:33 pmOkay, that's fine. This is a difference in our spiritual traditions so we simply agree to disagree.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:58 pm
Inherent existence is not the object of negation, no matter how you would like it to be.....it’s also not “how people see things,” and perception, whether valid or not, does not prove anything. It is the mental consciousness which elaborates perceptions and misconstrues existence.
For Gelugpas inherent existence is the perfect object of negation because it doesn't exist and negating it eliminates the ignorance erroneously grasping it, which is the root of samsara.
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Sectarian? Nope. Anti-demon cult? Yes.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:42 pmDo you have any actual contribution to this discussion other than nasty sectarian bias?Mantrik wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:24 pm Good folks, you will not persuade a person who will quote, sometimes verbatim, from a single source in response to every point and dare not do otherwise.
I guess I 'impute' that every time the plagiarisms of the mummified gyalpo worshipper are quoted, so I may be a little biased because appearance to mind, to me, is of no valid cogniser being present at all.
Cheers!
It is remarkable that the words of a cult leader banned from mention on DW are still allowed in debate.
No, I have nothing to offer you as an answer to your points as they originate with a harmful cult and should not be permitted to appear at all IMHO.
Irrespective of the debate, if we ban discussion of a cult leader we should ban his words, even if plagiarised from Tsongkhapa or supposedly 'his' translation work. We all know who really writes the books, but they are still part of an organisation banned from mention here on DW.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
- conebeckham
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- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
All existence is inherent existence, really. I think you're missing this. Put another way, any sort of "qualified existence" is no existence--no ontological assertion can be made regarding phenomena.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:14 pmI see, I didn't get that implication. I thought he was saying that the object of negation was existence not inherent existence.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:37 pmWhat cone is saying is that inherent existence is not an object that can be negated because it is like the son of a barren women, what is negated is the erroneous perception of inherent existence.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:33 pm
Okay, that's fine. This is a difference in our spiritual traditions so we simply agree to disagree.
For Gelugpas inherent existence is the perfect object of negation because it doesn't exist and negating it eliminates the ignorance erroneously grasping it, which is the root of samsara.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- Tsongkhapafan
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- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
No, not all existence is inherent existence. Buddhas experience the union of appearance and emptiness and this mere appearance is not inherently existent. You might argue that this mere appearance is not existent, but if it's not existent, what is it and why does it appear to the omniscient wisdom of a Buddha? It's form that is true.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:26 pmAll existence is inherent existence, really. I think you're missing this. Put another way, any sort of "qualified existence" is no existence--no ontological assertion can be made regarding phenomena.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:14 pmI see, I didn't get that implication. I thought he was saying that the object of negation was existence not inherent existence.
For Gelugpas inherent existence is the perfect object of negation because it doesn't exist and negating it eliminates the ignorance erroneously grasping it, which is the root of samsara.
It's a mistake to deny mere existence, an over negation.
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
As to appearances and the Buddha, a Buddha experience pure appearances. You can’t really compare the way phenomena appear to us and the way they appear to Buddha. I’d love to see your sources in regard to your assertion, by the way. Mipham has a bit to say about this, but it’s tangential to the discussion.
There’s no such thing as “mere existence”—there is mere appearance. Ontology is mental activity, and not perception.
There’s no such thing as “mere existence”—there is mere appearance. Ontology is mental activity, and not perception.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
It was actually a very specific question: How to Gelugpas deal with Mipham? His arguments are very specific, I assume their responses are also very specific.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Just as they never mounted an effective defense against Gorampa, they never mounted an effective defense against Mipham.Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:47 am It was actually a very specific question: How to Gelugpas deal with Mipham? His arguments are very specific, I assume their responses are also very specific.
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Just on one of your method practices the "gyalpo worship" is a bit of aTsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:36 pmI think we agree on many points, but not generally on the meaning of the profound path. However, that's normal because there is no real controversy concerning the method practices, only concerning the meaning of ultimate truth.
road block being full of controversy.
'