Why Shingon Buddhist believe in Chakras?

[AlexMcLeod]

but regardless, Reiki was the result of Esoteric Buddhism in Japan, and most likely it will be from Shingon, if there is no esoteric Buddhism there would be no Reiki

I highly doubt that is the case.

As a qigong practitioner, all Reiki practitioners I've come into contact with don't know anything about energy. If it came from Buddhism, it'd be a more complete system. Even if it were highly modified.

[conebeckham]

you will not find these explanations in the taisho tripitaka, just as you can not find any explanations on the yoga of naropa or yoga of niguma in tibetan kangyur and tengyur, for example. these explanations can only be found in the corresponding comments and then also in a symbolic language.

in the taisho tripitaka, you can only found this tantra text:
Volumes 18-21:密教部類Tantra Section: T0848 – T1420
Volumes 70-76: 續諸宗部1-7 Japanese Sectarian Writings 1-7: T2296 – T2410
Volumes 77-79:續諸宗部8-10 Japanese Sectarian Writings 8-10: T2411 -T2542 - Shingon

http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Map-of-the-Taisho.pdf

I don't know much about Shingon, though I understand it is based on Yoga Tantra, and the practice of MahaVairochana in particular.

Cakra or Chakra just means "wheel," and that term can have various meanings. A Chakra in Shingon, if such a thing exists, does not necessarily mean the same thing as a Chakra in any Tibetan presentation.

In the Tibetan Vajrayana traditions, Chakras are associated with the practices of Highest Yoga Tantra deities and the associated completion stage meditations.

However, you will indeed find mention of Chakras in the Kangyur, in the Tantra section.

The idea of a Chakra as an energy center located in the body is Indic in origin, and can be found in the Upanishads as well. But the presentations differ between Buddhist and non-Buddhist systems, and even within various Tantric traditions in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism.

[WuMing]

... A Chakra in Shingon, if such a thing exists, does not necessarily mean the same thing as a Chakra in any Tibetan presentation. ...

rin 輪 in Shingon can have several meanings, among them there is reference to the five elements (earth, water, fire, wind and space), or it refers to the manifestations or expressions of Dainichi Nyorai's (Mahāvairocana)actions/movements, which is not different from the Five Great Elements, but seen from awakened point of view.

So as one can see, it does not have anything to do with the Indian idea of the chakras.

[Johnny Dangerous]

... A Chakra in Shingon, if such a thing exists, does not necessarily mean the same thing as a Chakra in any Tibetan presentation. ...

rin 輪 in Shingon can have several meanings, among them there is reference to the five elements (earth, water, fire, wind and space), or it refers to the manifestations or expressions of Dainichi Nyorai's (Mahāvairocana)actions/movements, which is not different from the Five Great Elements, but seen from awakened point of view.

So as one can see, it does not have anything to do with the Indian idea of the chakras.

On the surface that's not dissimilar at all from some stuff found in Indian/Tibetan sources...not trying to conflate the two by any means..but saying "it does not have anything to do with the Indian idea of Chakras" (which Indian idea btw?) seems like kind of a bold statement, as Shingon is in fact a form of Vajrayana, originating in India.

Also, chakra in Tibetan Buddhism are also multivalent, they don't just "mean" some vague notion of energy physiology, and show up in a variety of different guises and practices.

I'm curious as to whether or not the concept really does show up in Shingon now...I don't see why it would be surprising at all that it would.

[WuMing]

to quote Kakuban:

The five rin are [to be taken as] the five bu 部 (Buddha-families). The five bu [to be taken as] the five chi 智[aspects of Dainichi's sapience). The five chi [to be taken as] the five directions.

from Henny van der Veere's study on Kakuban: A study into the thought of Kogyo Daishi Kakuban

I've never heard, read or learned of such an association of the chakras in the Indian chakra system. So, again I argue that the interpretation of the rin (wheels/circles) in Shingon does not have anything to do with the Indian chakra system, it is different from it. But I am happy to learn something new, if I am wrong here.

[Johnny Dangerous]

to quote Kakuban:

The five rin are [to be taken as] the five bu 部 (Buddha-families). The five bu [to be taken as] the five chi 智[aspects of Dainichi's sapience). The five chi [to be taken as] the five directions.

from Henny van der Veere's study on Kakuban: A study into the thought of Kogyo Daishi Kakuban

I've never heard, read or learned of such an association of the chakras in the Indian chakra system. So, again I argue that the interpretation of the rin (wheels/circles) in Shingon does not have anything to do with the Indian chakra system, it is different from it. But I am happy to learn something new, if I am wrong here.

There is definitely just such an association of five chakras with Five Buddha families/Elements etc in Tibetan Vajrayana...in fact, the association is pretty foundational to Tantra. Just Google a bit if interested.

Are rin associated with different parts of the body in Shingon, or they just associations?

[ShineeSeoul]

but it sound like Kakuban was their source

Thanks

The "五輪" Gorin of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism originated in India, not Japan and not with Kakuban. I just used his text as an example of "五輪" being translated in to English as "Five Chakras". Reference to them can be found in the Tantras used by the Shingon and Tendai sects, such as the Mahavairocana Tantra. However, as been said, what is being translated here as "chakras" shouldn't be compared with what is commonly referred to as "chakras" that come from Tibetan Buddhism.

aha Ok, thanks for clarifying, so at the end, it was from Taisho Tripitaka

[ShineeSeoul]

to quote Kakuban:

The five rin are [to be taken as] the five bu 部 (Buddha-families). The five bu [to be taken as] the five chi 智[aspects of Dainichi's sapience). The five chi [to be taken as] the five directions.

from Henny van der Veere's study on Kakuban: A study into the thought of Kogyo Daishi Kakuban

I've never heard, read or learned of such an association of the chakras in the Indian chakra system. So, again I argue that the interpretation of the rin (wheels/circles) in Shingon does not have anything to do with the Indian chakra system, it is different from it. But I am happy to learn something new, if I am wrong here.

May be its different, the Tibetan actually have different version than that in the Hindu system, so Shingon could have a different version as will

[ShineeSeoul]

... A Chakra in Shingon, if such a thing exists, does not necessarily mean the same thing as a Chakra in any Tibetan presentation. ...

rin 輪 in Shingon can have several meanings, among them there is reference to the five elements (earth, water, fire, wind and space), or it refers to the manifestations or expressions of Dainichi Nyorai's (Mahāvairocana)actions/movements, which is not different from the Five Great Elements, but seen from awakened point of view.

So as one can see, it does not have anything to do with the Indian idea of the chakras.

On the surface that's not dissimilar at all from some stuff found in Indian/Tibetan sources...not trying to conflate the two by any means..but saying "it does not have anything to do with the Indian idea of Chakras" (which Indian idea btw?) seems like kind of a bold statement, as Shingon is in fact a form of Vajrayana, originating in India.

Also, chakra in Tibetan Buddhism are also multivalent, they don't just "mean" some vague notion of energy physiology, and show up in a variety of different guises and practices.

I'm curious as to whether or not the concept really does show up in Shingon now...I don't see why it would be surprising at all that it would.

I read from multiple sources actually says Shingon does have Chakras, I am not sure why there is confusion about this

[WuMing]

... There is definitely just such an association of five chakras with Five Buddha families/Elements etc in Tibetan Vajrayana...in fact, the association is pretty foundational to Tantra. Just Google a bit if interested.

Are rin associated with different parts of the body in Shingon, or they just associations?

Yes, they are, and subsequently the body is seen as a Mandala.

Sorry, I just don't know not much about Tibetan Tantra.

[Johnny Dangerous]

... There is definitely just such an association of five chakras with Five Buddha families/Elements etc in Tibetan Vajrayana...in fact, the association is pretty foundational to Tantra. Just Google a bit if interested.

Are rin associated with different parts of the body in Shingon, or they just associations?

Yes, they are, and subsequently the body is seen as a Mandala.

Sorry, I just don't know not much about Tibetan Tantra.

Well, what you describe is quite near (in a basic sense at least) to concepts in Tibetan Tantra, including the body mandala.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... a_families

To me that does not seem shocking, since Shingon is Vajrayana.

So I guess it appears the answer is yes, chakra are taught in Shingon, and yes they are not dissimilar to things which are taught in Indo-Tibetan Varjayana...near as I can tell?

[WuMing]

... Well, what you describe is quite near (in a basic sense at least) to concepts in Tibetan Tantra, including the body mandala.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... a_families

To me that does not seem shocking, since Shingon is Vajrayana.

So I guess it appears the answer is yes, chakra are taught in Shingon, and yes they are not dissimilar to things which are taught in Indo-Tibetan Varjayana...near as I can tell?

Yes, probably, the Indian/Tibetan Vajrayana traditions and the Shingon have some similarities, but not with the Indian (Hindu) Yoga System.

[jmlee369]

I was not actually interested to practice Tantras, I think its weird because Buddha hasn't made his teaching as a secret, but thats different topic, and I still don't know why they keep it secret, any way, The Taisho Tripitaka does not contain Highest Yoga Tantra...right? this is part of Tibetan Tripitaka which is different from Taisho for what I know....

I read some where that the source of Chakras in Rieki came from Shingon Buddhism, though the creator of Reiki was Tendai Buddhist but he is either change to Shingon Buddhism or take something from them, thats why there is Chakras in Rieki ...so I was wondering what makes Shingon Buddhist believing in Chakras

Regarding secrecy, the Buddha had the wisdom to teach different beings according to their capabilities. Even in the sravaka path, things like the meditation on the impurity of the body was restricted because of the potential danger for misunderstandings. Likewise, much of the Vinaya is limited to monastics. And if you believe that the tantras were taught by the Buddha himself, he very clearly states the need for secrecy there. The reason why is because tantra in particular can be abused, and it also presents great risks to the practitioner. With regards to Highest Yoga Tantra at least, it is traditionally compared to a snake in a bamboo tube - you can only go all the way up or all the way down. Likewise, tantra will either lead you to realisation or hell, and not much in between (or so I have been told, your mileage may vary). But as I mentioned in my post, there are at least two Highest Yoga Tantras in the Taisho, Guhyasamaja [佛說一切如來金剛三業最上祕密大教王經, Taisho Vol. 18 no. 885] and Hevajra [佛說大悲空智金剛大教王儀軌經, Taisho Vol. 18 no. 892]. As I said before, while these texts were translated, the lineage of initiation and practice was not spread to China, so there is no working with chakras in Shingon as you have in the Tibetan traditions.

I read from multiple sources actually says Shingon does have Chakras, I am not sure why there is confusion about this

One problem is that the term chakra is so broad. Literally, it means wheel. And so there are many levels of meaning to this, even in the context of tantra. However, the popular understanding of chakras as energy centers associated with specific points along the center of your body has little correspondence to the core practice of Shingon. Another problem is that your sources (Meditation Expert) are unreliable. As much about Shingon is still unknown and kept secret especially in Western settings, this allows wrong information to be spread around about it.

... There is definitely just such an association of five chakras with Five Buddha families/Elements etc in Tibetan Vajrayana...in fact, the association is pretty foundational to Tantra. Just Google a bit if interested.

Are rin associated with different parts of the body in Shingon, or they just associations?

Yes, they are, and subsequently the body is seen as a Mandala.

Sorry, I just don't know not much about Tibetan Tantra.

Well, what you describe is quite near (in a basic sense at least) to concepts in Tibetan Tantra, including the body mandala.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... a_families

To me that does not seem shocking, since Shingon is Vajrayana.

So I guess it appears the answer is yes, chakra are taught in Shingon, and yes they are not dissimilar to things which are taught in Indo-Tibetan Varjayana...near as I can tell?

It is more like the Tibetan inner mandala offering of transforming your body into a mandala than the body mandala, since body mandalas are limited to only a few Highest Yoga Tantra systems even in Tibetan Buddhism. In the Tibetan tradition, chakras as energy centers are only relevant to Highest Yoga Tantra when practising completion stage, and since the tantric systems in Shingon do not teach the subtle body and the winds, channels, and drops, there is no equivalence to be made. The Tibetan tradition shares these methods with other non-Buddhist Indian yogic systems, but not with Shingon.

[ShineeSeoul]

I was not actually interested to practice Tantras, I think its weird because Buddha hasn't made his teaching as a secret, but thats different topic, and I still don't know why they keep it secret, any way, The Taisho Tripitaka does not contain Highest Yoga Tantra...right? this is part of Tibetan Tripitaka which is different from Taisho for what I know....

I read some where that the source of Chakras in Rieki came from Shingon Buddhism, though the creator of Reiki was Tendai Buddhist but he is either change to Shingon Buddhism or take something from them, thats why there is Chakras in Rieki ...so I was wondering what makes Shingon Buddhist believing in Chakras

Regarding secrecy, the Buddha had the wisdom to teach different beings according to their capabilities. Even in the sravaka path, things like the meditation on the impurity of the body was restricted because of the potential danger for misunderstandings. Likewise, much of the Vinaya is limited to monastics. And if you believe that the tantras were taught by the Buddha himself, he very clearly states the need for secrecy there. The reason why is because tantra in particular can be abused, and it also presents great risks to the practitioner. With regards to Highest Yoga Tantra at least, it is traditionally compared to a snake in a bamboo tube - you can only go all the way up or all the way down. Likewise, tantra will either lead you to realisation or hell, and not much in between (or so I have been told, your mileage may vary). But as I mentioned in my post, there are at least two Highest Yoga Tantras in the Taisho, Guhyasamaja [佛說一切如來金剛三業最上祕密大教王經, Taisho Vol. 18 no. 885] and Hevajra [佛說大悲空智金剛大教王儀軌經, Taisho Vol. 18 no. 892]. As I said before, while these texts were translated, the lineage of initiation and practice was not spread to China, so there is no working with chakras in Shingon as you have in the Tibetan traditions.

I read from multiple sources actually says Shingon does have Chakras, I am not sure why there is confusion about this

One problem is that the term chakra is so broad. Literally, it means wheel. And so there are many levels of meaning to this, even in the context of tantra. However, the popular understanding of chakras as energy centers associated with specific points along the center of your body has little correspondence to the core practice of Shingon. Another problem is that your sources (Meditation Expert) are unreliable. As much about Shingon is still unknown and kept secret especially in Western settings, this allows wrong information to be spread around about it.

Yes, they are, and subsequently the body is seen as a Mandala.

Sorry, I just don't know not much about Tibetan Tantra.

Well, what you describe is quite near (in a basic sense at least) to concepts in Tibetan Tantra, including the body mandala.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... a_families

To me that does not seem shocking, since Shingon is Vajrayana.

So I guess it appears the answer is yes, chakra are taught in Shingon, and yes they are not dissimilar to things which are taught in Indo-Tibetan Varjayana...near as I can tell?

It is more like the Tibetan inner mandala offering of transforming your body into a mandala than the body mandala, since body mandalas are limited to only a few Highest Yoga Tantra systems even in Tibetan Buddhism. In the Tibetan tradition, chakras as energy centers are only relevant to Highest Yoga Tantra when practising completion stage, and since the tantric systems in Shingon do not teach the subtle body and the winds, channels, and drops, there is no equivalence to be made. The Tibetan tradition shares these methods with other non-Buddhist Indian yogic systems, but not with Shingon.

The other tantras like Maha Vairocana Sutra or other that is taken by Shingon does have The five elements which can be translated as Chakras
any way, I think there could be chakras in Shingon, read the previous posts above


The previous link about Taisho Tripitaka have no Hevajra and Guhyasamaja Tantra in it

http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Map-of-the-Taisho.pdf

so does that mean there is many version of Taisho Tripitaka?

[Seishin]

The previous link about Taisho Tripitaka have no Hevajra and Guhyasamaja Tantra in it

http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Map-of-the-Taisho.pdf

so does that mean there is many version of Taisho Tripitaka?

It's number 885 in the Taisho http://www.wrightanddavis.co.uk/SOAS201 ... 100718.pdf

[crazy-man]

The previous link about Taisho Tripitaka have no Hevajra and Guhyasamaja Tantra in it
http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Map-of-the-Taisho.pdf
so does that mean there is many version of Taisho Tripitaka?

No, you can find these Tantras here:

T0865-T0892金剛頂經 (Vajra-skhara (Diamond-head) Sutras)

http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Tangut/Tais ... l#Mijiaobu

T18 865 金剛頂一切如來真實攝大乘現證大教王經 3 唐 不空譯
T18 866 金剛頂瑜伽中略出念誦經 4 唐 金剛智譯
T18 867 金剛峰樓閣一切瑜伽瑜祇經 2 唐 金剛智譯
T18 868 諸佛境界攝真實經 3 唐 般若譯
T18 869 金剛頂經瑜伽十八會指歸 1 唐 不空譯
T18 870 略述金剛頂瑜伽分別聖位修證法門 1 唐 不空譯
T18 871 金剛頂瑜伽略述三十七尊心要 1 唐 不空譯
T18 872 金剛頂瑜伽三十七尊出生義 1 唐 不空譯
T18 873 金剛頂蓮華部心念誦儀軌 1 唐 不空譯
T18 874 金剛頂一切如來真實攝大乘現證大教王經 2 唐 不空譯
T18 875 蓮華部心念誦儀軌 1 失譯
T18 876 金剛頂瑜伽修習毘盧遮那三摩地法 1 唐 金剛智譯
T18 877 金剛頂經毘盧遮那一百八尊法身契印 1 唐 善無畏．一行譯
T18 878 金剛頂經金剛界大道場毘盧遮那如來自受用身內證智眷屬法身異名佛最上乘祕密三摩地禮懺文 1 唐 不空譯
T18 879 金剛頂瑜伽三十七尊禮 1 唐 不空譯
T18 880 瑜伽金剛頂經釋字母品 1 唐 不空譯
T18 881 賢劫十六尊 1
T18 882 佛說一切如來真實攝大乘現證三昧大教王經 30 宋 施護等譯
T18 883 佛說祕密三昧大教王經 4 宋 施護等譯
T18 884 佛說祕密相經 3 宋 施護等譯
T18 885 佛說一切如來金剛三業最上祕密大教王經 7 宋 施護譯
T18 886 佛說金剛場莊嚴般若波羅蜜多教中一分 1 宋 施護譯
T18 887 佛說無二平等最上瑜伽大教王經 6 宋 施護譯
T18 888 一切祕密最上名義大教王儀軌 2 宋 施護譯
T18 889 一切如來大祕密王未曾有最上微妙大曼拏羅經 5 宋 天息災譯
T18 890 佛說瑜伽大教王經 5 宋 法賢譯
T18 891 佛說幻化網大瑜伽教十忿怒明王大明觀想儀軌經 1 宋 法賢譯
T18 892 佛說大悲空智金剛大教王儀軌經 5 宋 法護譯

english title:
http://vnbaolut.com/daitangtuequang/Lis ... Titles.pdf

865.
a. The Great Sun Thus Come One's Sword Seal
b. The Names of the Teachings by Womb Treasury Vajra
866.
All Thus Come Ones on the Vajra Summit Truly Appealing to the Mahayana's Present Certification to the King of Great Teachings Sutra
867.
The Brief Recitation Sutra from the Vajra Summit Yoga
868.
All Yoga Yogacari Sutra of the Vajra Summit Pavilion
869.
All Buddhas' States Attracting the Real Sutra
870.
The Instructive Return of the 18 Yoga Assemblies to the Vajra Summit Sutra
871.
A Brief Description of the Cultivation and Certification of the Dharma Doors to the Different Sagely Positions of the Vajra Summit Yoga
872.
A Brief Description of the Essentials to the 37 Venerables' Minds of the Vajra Summit Yoga
873.
Meanings Emerged from the 37 Venerables of the Vajra Summit Yoga
874.
The Recitation and Liturgy of the Heart of the Vajra Summit Lotus Division
875.
The Vajra Summit of All Thus Come Ones' Truth that Attracts Mahayana's Present
Certification of the Great Secret Teachings Division Sutra
876.
Recitation and Liturgy for the Heart of the Lotus Division
877.
The Vajra Summit Yoga' Cultivation of the Vairocana Samadhi Dharma
878.
Corresponding Seals by the Dharma Bodies of 108 Venerables of Vairocana in the Vajra
Summit Sutra
879.
Bowing and Repentance Text for the Most Supreme Vehicle's Secret Samadhi at the
Vajra Realm Great Mandala Where Vairocana Thus Come One Receives and Uses His Inner
Body to Certify to the Wisdom of His Retinues' Dharma Bodies, Buddhas by Distinct Names
According to the Vajra Summit Sutra
880.
Bowing to the 37 Venerables of the Vajra Summit Yoga
881.
The Chapter in Interpreting Syllables of the Yogo Vajra Summit Sutra
882.
The 16 Venerables of the Worthy Kalpa
883.
The Buddha Speaks of the Samadhi Presently Certified to by All Thus Come Ones' Truth Attracting the Mahayana
884.
The Buddha Speaks of the King of Great Teachings' Secret Samadhi Sutra
885.
The Buddha Speaks of the Secret Marks Sutra
886.
The Buddha Speaks of the King of Great Teachings' Most Supreme Secret with Regard to the Three Karmas of All Thus Come Ones' Vajra
887.
The Buddha Speaks of One Portion of the Adorned Prajna Paramita Teachings in the Vajra Place
888.
The Buddha Speaks of the King of Great Teachings' Nondual, Impartial, Most Supreme Yoga Sutra
889.
The Liturgy of the King of Great Teachings' Foremost Names and Meanings to All Secrets
890.
The Unprecedented, Foremost, Subtle and Wonderful Great Mandala of the King of Great Secrets among All Thus Comes Ones Sutra
891.
The Buddha Speaks of the King of Great Teachings' Yog Sutra
892.
The Buddha Speaks of the Liturgy for Extremely Bright Contemplation of the Ten Angry Bright Kings of the Illusory Net of the Great Yogo Teachings Sutra

some translations
http://mbingenheimer.net/tools/bibls/tr ... l#T18n0865

T18n0865: Jin gang ding yi qie ru lai zhen shi she da cheng xian zheng da jiao wang jing 金剛頂一切如來真實攝大乘現證大教王經. Vajrasekhara sutra
eng: complete translated by: Giebel, Rolf W
“The Adamantine Pinnacle Sutra”
In: Two Esoteric Sutras. Berkeley: Numata Center for Buddhist Translation and Research, 2001.
eng: partial 2 (Summary)
translated by: Chandra, Lokesh and David L. Snellgrove “Sarva-Tathagata-Tattva-Sangraha”
In: Sarva-Tathagata-Tattva-Sangraha: Facsimile Reproduction of a Tenth Century Sanskrit Manuscript from Nepal. New Delhi: Mrs. Sharada Rani, 1981 (Introduction by Snellgrove [pp. 5–67] includes analysis and summary of the entire scripture, but based on the Sanskrit and Tibetan versions.)

T18n0867: Jin gang feng lou ge yi qie yu jia qi jing 金剛峯樓閣一切瑜伽瑜祇經
nld: complete translated by: Vanden Broucke, Pol Kamiel.
Yugikyō, De schriftūr van alle Yoga's end Yogi's van het paviljoen met vajra-top (Yugikyō: the Scripture of all Yogas and Yogins of the Pavilion with Vajra-Top)Rijksuniversiteit te Gent, 1990.
eng: partial (Ch.5) translated by: Goepper, Roger.
In: "Aizen Myōō, the Esoteric King of Lust: An Iconological Study"
Zürich: Museum Rietberg, 1993. Artibus Asiae supplement. Vol. XXXIX.

T18n0869: Jin gang ding jing yuqie shiba hui zhi gui 金剛頂經瑜伽十八會指歸
eng: complete translated by: Giebel, Rolf W
“The Chin-kang-ting ching yü-ch’ieh shih-pa-hui chih-kuei: An Annotated Translation,”
Naritasan Bukkyō kenkyû kiyō 成田山佛教研究紀要 18 (1995), pp.107–201.

T18n0890: Yu qie da jiao wang jing 瑜伽大教王經, Māyājālamahātantra
eng: partial (T18n890 chs.1–4)
translated by: Sinclair, Ian
In: Iconography in the Chinese Māyājāla-tantra
Unpublished M.A. thesis, University of Western Sydney, 2000.
T18n0891: Huan hua wang da yu jie jiao shi fen nu ming wang da ming guan xiang yi gui jing 幻化網大瑜伽教十忿怒明王大明觀想儀軌經
eng: partial translated by: Sinclair, Ian
In: Iconography in the Chinese Māyājāla-tantra
Unpublished M.A. thesis, University of Western Sydney, 2000.
The translations of T890/T891 by I. Sinclair make also use of (differing) Sanskrit and Tibetan versions.

T18n0892: Da bei kong zhi jin gang da jiao wang yi gui 佛說大悲空智金剛大教王儀軌 (Hevajra ḍākinījālasaṃvara-tantra)
eng: complete translated by: Willemen, Charles
The Chinese Hevajratantra: the scriptural text of the ritual of the Great King of the teaching, the Adamantine one with great compassion and knowledge of the void
Orientalia Gandensia 8. Leuven: Peeters, 1983. 208 pp. [Reprint: Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 2004.]

[GDPR_Anonymized001]

to quote Kakuban:

The five rin are [to be taken as] the five bu 部 (Buddha-families). The five bu [to be taken as] the five chi 智[aspects of Dainichi's sapience). The five chi [to be taken as] the five directions.

from Henny van der Veere's study on Kakuban: A study into the thought of Kogyo Daishi Kakuban

I've never heard, read or learned of such an association of the chakras in the Indian chakra system. So, again I argue that the interpretation of the rin (wheels/circles) in Shingon does not have anything to do with the Indian chakra system, it is different from it. But I am happy to learn something new, if I am wrong here.

May be its different, the Tibetan actually have different version than that in the Hindu system, so Shingon could have a different version as will

I remain rather baffled by this discussion. So, I would like to once again; ask you to clarify what exactly you are asking. The sanskrit term "Cakra" has many different meanings. (See the invaluable Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism: https://books.google.com/books?id=DXN2A ... &q&f=false )

Which meaning of the word are you asking about in this context? A number of people have now very clearly answered that Shingon does not have the Higher Yoga teachings version of "cakra" in any of its teachings. One of whom is an actual Shingon Priest who ordained, studied, and trained on Koyasan in Japan. Therefore it is unclear to me what you mean to imply by saying: "...so Shingon could have a different version as well." I am beginning to assume you have some sort of idea in your head you are trying to rationalise.

I apologise if my earlier post gave the impression that I meant Tibetan and Shingon Buddhism do not share similar/same concepts of Cakra. Of course they do, to an extent. This is because they share some of the same sutra/teachings but not all of the same tantric teachings, as has been explained many times now.

Lastly, I'm not sure why there is interest in knowing if the Taisho Tripatika has within it the Annuttarayogatantric texts. The Taisho Tripatika has Taisho in its name because it was put together by Buddhist scholars during the Taisho era in Japan which was from 1912-1926. You should not have the understanding that if a sutra is in the Taisho Tripatika that Kukai had access to it 1100 years earlier.

[Johnny Dangerous]

It is more like the Tibetan inner mandala offering of transforming your body into a mandala than the body mandala, since body mandalas are limited to only a few Highest Yoga Tantra systems even in Tibetan Buddhism. In the Tibetan tradition, chakras as energy centers are only relevant to Highest Yoga Tantra when practising completion stage, and since the tantric systems in Shingon do not teach the subtle body and the winds, channels, and drops, there is no equivalence to be made. The Tibetan tradition shares these methods with other non-Buddhist Indian yogic systems, but not with Shingon.

If Shingon has practices that associate the Five Buddha families with Five Chakras in the body..I assumed it would have some reason for doing so. If it does not teach practices, how on earth/why does it have a model where the chakras are represented by the five families/elements/etc.? One doesn't need that association for practices that use the body as an offering...

What exactly does Shingon "do" with the chakras associated with the body if they are not associated with some sort of subtle body practice, what other function do they serve?

So just to be clear, does this association exist (of chakras in the body and their associations) within Shingon or not (it appeared to from Wu Wings post), and if so, in what way is it used?

[WuMing]

... What exactly does Shingon "do" with the chakras associated with the body if they are not associated with some sort of subtle body practice, what other function do they serve?

So just to be clear, does this association exist (of chakras in the body and their associations) within Shingon or not (it appeared to from Wu Wings post), and if so, in what way is it used?

Again, rin 輪 in Shingon (deliberately not using the word chakra anymore) does not work on an energy level (at least not that I am aware of) as it does, from what I understand now, in Tibetan Vajrayana. Similarities do not come down to the energy level, as it is worked with in Tibetan Vajrayana traditions. Such an understanding and practice is a later development in Buddhist Tantra and did not find its way to Shingon, as Shingon does not have the transmission of the Highest Yoga Tantra, of the Tibetan-Indian classification of Tantric Teachings, as Shingon comes from an earlier development in Buddhist Tantra, which was already pointed out by Jake and jmlee369 in the beginning of the discussion.

But there are certain associations that come with it (as pointed out before), in order to "transform" ones ordinary understanding of body into that of an awakened understanding of it, which means that Buddhahood is already present in ones very own body.

Hope that helps!

[Johnny Dangerous]

Thanks, that answers it pretty well.