Chopping down trees and Buddhism

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Malcolm
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:
However the point is that from at least one traditional Buddhist perspective trees and plants are not sentient.
Yup, that is a traditional point of view. So is the idea that woman have an inferior birth.
Are you insinuating that some traditional points of view are mistaken?
Sure, when did I ever say otherwise?

The idea that plants are not sentient is a cultural idea, it is not a hard doctrinal Buddhist position.

My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.

I have come to the conclusion there is no such thing as nonsentient life.

But hey, that's just me.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Are you insinuating that some traditional points of view are mistaken?
Sure, when did I ever say otherwise?
OK, just checking. :smile:
Malcolm wrote:The idea that plants are not sentient is a cultural idea, it is not a hard doctrinal Buddhist position.

My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.

I have come to the conclusion there is no such thing as nonsentient life.

But hey, that's just me.
So, do you hold that, for example, humans can be reborn as trees and vice versa?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Are you insinuating that some traditional points of view are mistaken?
Sure, when did I ever say otherwise?
OK, just checking. :smile:
Malcolm wrote:The idea that plants are not sentient is a cultural idea, it is not a hard doctrinal Buddhist position.

My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.

I have come to the conclusion there is no such thing as nonsentient life.

But hey, that's just me.
So, do you hold that, for example, humans can be reborn as trees and vice versa?
Hell, according to the Jatakas, one can be reborn as a bridge or a broom.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:Hell, according to the Jatakas, one can be reborn as a bridge or a broom.
Really? I didn't know that.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote:The idea that plants are not sentient is a cultural idea, it is not a hard doctrinal Buddhist position.

My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.

I have come to the conclusion there is no such thing as nonsentient life.
OK, so you can accept various Hindu, Jain (I think), Taoist, and shamanistic views regarding sentience (all of which *can* hold that all life is sentient - not that they always do hold that view though).
Malcom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:So, do you hold that, for example, humans can be reborn as trees and vice versa?
Hell, according to the Jatakas, one can be reborn as a bridge or a broom.
Unless you can provide a quote I'll have to point out that this is an incorrect reading of the Jatakas. Sentient beings can be reborn as beings (usually spirits or dewas or ghosts of some sort) that use the objects as homes. Sometimes they are essentially imprisoned in those objects (like the Mahasiddha whose mother was reborn as an insect inside of a rock that was used as a hearthstone). This, BTW, is a common shamanistic view (although there can be variations from culture to culture). Many people who grew up in Hawaii, for example, would be comfortable at least with the idea that beings inhabit plants, rocks, mountains, ocean, etc. even if they were uncomfortable articulating that in a wider, esp. Western, cultural context). However this view is also acknowledged variously among American Indian groups as well. And this is also the general Tibetan view.

Kirt
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Malcolm
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The idea that plants are not sentient is a cultural idea, it is not a hard doctrinal Buddhist position.

My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.

I have come to the conclusion there is no such thing as nonsentient life.
OK, so you can accept various Hindu, Jain (I think), Taoist, and shamanistic views regarding sentience (all of which *can* hold that all life is sentient - not that they always do hold that view though).
Malcom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:So, do you hold that, for example, humans can be reborn as trees and vice versa?
Hell, according to the Jatakas, one can be reborn as a bridge or a broom.
Unless you can provide a quote I'll have to point out that this is an incorrect reading of the Jatakas. Sentient beings can be reborn as beings (usually spirits or dewas or ghosts of some sort) that use the objects as homes. Sometimes they are essentially imprisoned in those objects (like the Mahasiddha whose mother was reborn as an insect inside of a rock that was used as a hearthstone). This, BTW, is a common shamanistic view (although there can be variations from culture to culture). Many people who grew up in Hawaii, for example, would be comfortable at least with the idea that beings inhabit plants, rocks, mountains, ocean, etc. even if they were uncomfortable articulating that in a wider, esp. Western, cultural context). However this view is also acknowledged variously among American Indian groups as well. And this is also the general Tibetan view.

Kirt
HI Kirt:

Again, the story you cite is a cultural misunderstanding of fossilization. Tibetans, as well as most other humans, did not understand that creatures they found in rock were born millions of years of ago, died, and settled to floor of an ancient ocean -- nevertheless, rock formations where trilobites are found are used in Tibetan medicine.

I think the dividing line between sentient and nonsentient is a great deal more porous than Buddhists would like to acknowledge.

Then there is the case of earthworm. If you cut an earthworm in half, clearly both sides live on, and indeed will form individuals. Are earthworms sentient or not? If they are, how does their individual sentience arise in absence of conception?

Perhaps it is the case that Buddhadharma does not account for everything in the Universe, as much as we would like.

As far as the broom and bridge stories go, they can be found in the Petavatthu. There are a number of examples where monks and so on are born as inanimate objects, pillars, brooms, etc.

The container/content metaphor (mind/body, spirit/tree, etc.) is a powerful metaphor, but that is all it is.
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seeker242
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by seeker242 »

Interesting video on the subject. :smile:

Do the Buddhist precepts forbid us to cut down or hurt plants? ~Chan Master Sheng-Yen

phpBB [video]
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:I think the dividing line between sentient and nonsentient is a great deal more porous than Buddhists would like to acknowledge.
You're not going panpsychist on us, are you?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I think the dividing line between sentient and nonsentient is a great deal more porous than Buddhists would like to acknowledge.
You're not going panpsychist on us, are you?
Nope, I just think that drawing a hard line between sentient and nonsentient life is very difficult, if not impossible. That hard line cannot bear any rigorous examination.
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Losal Samten
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Losal Samten »

Malcolm wrote:My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.
What about fire?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:You're not going panpsychist on us, are you?
Nope, I just think that drawing a hard line between sentient and nonsentient life is very difficult, if not impossible. That hard line cannot bear any rigorous examination.
OK, just checking. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Mother's Lap wrote:
Malcolm wrote:My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.
What about fire?
Fire does not use prāṇa vāyu.
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Adamantine
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Adamantine »

Malcolm wrote:
Mother's Lap wrote:
Malcolm wrote:My point of view is, if it breathes, if it uses prāṇa vāyu, it is sentient.
What about fire?
Fire does not use prāṇa vāyu.
Don't say that to lord Agni!
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

One of my Guru's has said that if we are to cut down a tree, because the tree may be inhabited by a spirit.

That being if you cut the tree will feel pain due to their association and attachment with it.

So as somewhat of a randsom Gather crushed semi precious stones, and mixed grains, and throw it to the tree - Stating the purpose of cutting the tree I.E For Sang or what not.

However the exact liturgy or how to perform this I am unsure of.

Tashi delek !
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Malcolm
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Sonam Wangchug wrote:One of my Guru's has said that if we are to cut down a tree, because the tree may be inhabited by a spirit.

That being if you cut the tree will feel pain due to their association and attachment with it.
Sounds like mind/body to me...
newbie
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by newbie »

This summer while tending to an improvisation shrine I managed to set up after given instructions, the cut wild flowers I was placing in the 2 vases, not only released perfume, but after a while left behind a sort of luminosity that I would like to describe as love the flowers received from the sun.

And have you noticed that a room with flowers is discretely happier ?
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skittles
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by skittles »

I do notice something like that.
"My main teacher Serkong Rinpoche, who was one of the teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, explained that having a protector is like having a very strong and vicious dog. If you are a strong person, you could go sit and guard your own gate every night to make sure that thieves don’t attack, but usually people wouldn’t do that. It’s not that we don’t have the ability, it’s just: why bother? You could post a dog there instead." - Alex Berzin http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... rs_ab.html
newbie
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by newbie »

20 years ago I was chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo to a tree in my uncle's garden.
I've been told that if I have no one to cry to, I should try explaining my worries to a tree.
Things ended up pretty badly for some trees in the city. :(
The trees having been infested had to be cut down and young trees grew, but in time. It's ok but it's not ok.

I also changed in 20 years. Who am I ?
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Not to get too tirthika-ish, but here's something from Suri Nagamma's "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam":
When Bhagavan was in Virupaksha Cave, Echamma, who installed a picture of Bhagavan and a picture of Seshadri Swami in her house, decided to do puja with a lakh of tender leaves, and began it after informing Bhagavan about it. By the time she had finished the puja with fifty thousand leaves, summer had set in, and she could not gather any more leaves even though she wandered all over the mountain. She got tired, and went to Bhagavan to ventilate her grievances. Bhagavan said, “If you cannot get the leaves, why not pinch yourself and do puja?” She said, “Oh, but that will be painful!” Bhagavan said, “If it pains you to pinch your body, is it not painful to the tree when you cut its leaves?” She turned pale and asked, “Why did you not tell me earlier, Swami?” He replied, “When you know that pinching the body is painful, why did you not know that the tree will be equally pained if you rob it of its leaves? Do I have to tell you that?”
(Bhagavan = Ramana Maharshi)
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Chopping down trees and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:Not to get too tirthika-ish, but here's something from Suri Nagamma's "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam":
When Bhagavan was in Virupaksha Cave, Echamma, who installed a picture of Bhagavan and a picture of Seshadri Swami in her house, decided to do puja with a lakh of tender leaves, and began it after informing Bhagavan about it. By the time she had finished the puja with fifty thousand leaves, summer had set in, and she could not gather any more leaves even though she wandered all over the mountain. She got tired, and went to Bhagavan to ventilate her grievances. Bhagavan said, “If you cannot get the leaves, why not pinch yourself and do puja?” She said, “Oh, but that will be painful!” Bhagavan said, “If it pains you to pinch your body, is it not painful to the tree when you cut its leaves?” She turned pale and asked, “Why did you not tell me earlier, Swami?” He replied, “When you know that pinching the body is painful, why did you not know that the tree will be equally pained if you rob it of its leaves? Do I have to tell you that?”
(Bhagavan = Ramana Maharshi)
Common sense.
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