Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

[Malcolm]

Later rnam thar of Machig are of no practical (historiographical) use.

Agreed.

[nyonchung]

Later rnam thar of Machig are of no practical (historiographical) use.

Agreed.

Nevertheless, some people tried to make a lot out of 19th century works ... it's extremely difficult to reconstruct her family line (earlier versions contradict)

I'm planning to publish some day this research on the early zhi byed, on Khyungpo Neljor's biographical data (interesting finds) , both cases of fantastic lifetime durations, but a really close textual analysis allows to identifiy the earliest stratas.
My take (for Khyungpo Neljor) is that the biographical material was lastly reworked in sakyapa circles somewher in the first half of the XIIIth century - not based on personal fancies, but on Drölchog remarkable works (and, yes, on Khedrub Jé's) and various sources.
Meanwhile I'm working stod 'brug pa / sa skya pa relationships in La stod (XV/XVIIth centuries), this has a connection with Tsangnyön's disciples, and I'm quite disappointed by recent research on the subject ... seems some scholars are unaware of the close relationship between Sakya, Taglung, Bodong, Narthang ...

[conebeckham]

Khyungpo Naljor, aka Lama Shang, shows up as a student of Khonchog Gyalpo in one lineage list.

The usual person referred to as "Lama Shang" (or Zhang) is actually the founder of the now-extinct Tselpa Kagyu. Some controversy about his Mahamudra tradition,if I recall..... I've not heard Khyungpo Naljor equated with the title "Lama Shang" before.

Which Khonchog Gyalpo are you referring to?

[Malcolm]

Khyungpo Naljor, aka Lama Shang, shows up as a student of Khonchog Gyalpo in one lineage list.

The usual person referred to as "Lama Shang" (or Zhang) is actually the founder of the now-extinct Tselpa Kagyu. Some controversy about his Mahamudra tradition,if I recall..... I've not heard Khyungpo Naljor equated with the title "Lama Shang" before.

Which Khonchog Gyalpo are you referring to?

Khon Konchog Gyalpo, far too early to be Lama Shang of white panacea fame.

[nyonchung]

Khyungpo Naljor, aka Lama Shang, shows up as a student of Khonchog Gyalpo in one lineage list.

The usual person referred to as "Lama Shang" (or Zhang) is actually the founder of the now-extinct Tselpa Kagyu. Some controversy about his Mahamudra tradition,if I recall..... I've not heard Khyungpo Naljor equated with the title "Lama Shang" before.

Which Khonchog Gyalpo are you referring to?

Khon Konchog Gyalpo, far too early to be Lama Shang of white panacea fame.

I mentionned it in this thread or another one

I agree with Malcolm

- "bla ma shangs pa" in the Sum pa re'u mig (of Sumpa Khenpo) for instance generally refers to Khyungpo Neljor (d. 1139) with this caveat: at the end of his life, when he settled in zhang zhang / zhong zhong (in the shangs area of Tsang) but shangs pa is also the clan/family (rus) name of Khyungpo Neljor's mother - gLe lung mkhan rabs, p. 382
according to this source, one of the branches is the Rinpung dpon

The long biography in the Shangs pa gser chos also uses the form "bla ma shangs pa" - Khyung po rnal byor gyi rnam thar - p. 80 vol. 1 of the Shang chos vol. 1

I completed not long ago the full survey of Künga Drölchog Thob yig , I won't, like Namdröl, certify 100% that this is Khyungpo Neljor, but both name and dates are in agreement and so, very highly probable, it says of bla ma shangs pa:
+ disciple of Khön Könchog Gyelpo (1034-1102)
+ master of Sachen Künga Nyingpo (1092-1158) - Kun dga' grol mchog thob yig - f. 158a (p. 277) - gnyug ma dran gsal

and this seems a phyag chen instruction - Namdröl, familiar of the lam 'bras tradition has possibly some more information
This instruction appear in the gDams ngag mdzod in the Jo nang khrid brgya - of who, guess?, Drölchog
According to the Thob yig, this instruction was received by Khetsün Zhönnu Drub ( a key compiler of the Shangpa systems), before finally entering the Lam 'bras corpus with Lama Dampa Sönam Gyeltsen

As for bla ma zhang g.yu brag pa / brtson 'grus grags (1123-1193) - I'm quite familiar with his biographies, never appears as bla ma shangs - zhang is his clan name , his dates are pretty certain and was born 22 years after Könchog Gyelpo's departure

Ergo ...

Regards to both you and to all readers who wonder what all this has to do with samaya

Well, if these teachers are mentioned with respect many hundred of years after their departure, they must have had quite pure samayas

[conebeckham]

Thanks to you both for the clarification as well as the fascinating history!

[nyonchung]

How are you?

In fact this entry in Drölchog's "Records of Received Teachings" is quite important for confirming Khyungpo Neljor's dates
1139 for his death, from Sumpa Khenpo is almost certain, when compared to elements in Mochogpa's biography
This fits with perfectly with Sachen's dates (1092-1158)
Khhuyungpo Dzoki is often given born in 990 and Gö Lotsawa himselself, in his "Blue Annals" warns his reader about the absurdity of such a claim.
Matthew Kapstein (otherwise excellent, we all agree, and with capacities far beyond lmine) ) did a forgetable article on the subject at the beginning of his extraordinary career.
A close textual study of the two rnam thar (Gö Lo's is different from the shang chos one) and of various Shangpa sources, plus some sources (including in bsTan 'gyur) strangely left aside by Western research show the claim that he was born on a tiger year doesn't stand scrutiny (some say possibly same as Milarepa 1040 - not as Stearns , 1052, that creates more problem than it's supposed to solve starting with Drogmi's and Bari Lo's careers)
If born a tiger year, 1052 would certainly do, it would be long to go here into details, but Khyungpo Drubchen was most probably in his late thirties / early forties by 1082/3, the most probable time of his first to India, not long before Maitripa's death (two dates known).
This is were this entry is vital since Lama Shangpa must be born somewhere in between Könchog Gyelpo (b. 1034) and Sachen (b. 1092) ...
I'll recheck with Sachen' biography sometime later

Again far
Kudos