Let’s be honest there’s no wisdom path except Ati. Everything else is path of afflictions.krodha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:51 pmNo, I am saying that those who have practiced both paths, report that they are qualitatively different in an experiential sense. Like the taste of sugar and salt.
One would not assert that the taste of sugar and salt only differ in the aftermath of tasting them, when the non-conceptual experience of each is described differently.
They are actually different, experientially, as non-conceptual tastes. The same goes for these paths and their respective realizations, etc.
Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Never in a trillion years will any advaita discover the mirror like wisdom emerging as deities and five lights. Come ON!!!! zap you with my ray gun.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Who said anything about accidents or chance? There is this thing called past karma/accumulations.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?
There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
A direct perception (pratyakṣa) by definition is nonconceptual and apprehends an intrinsic characteristic.
Since the intrinsic characteristic of red is different than that of blue, the nonconceptual direct perception of red and blue respectively are both experientially different and substantively different, just as the direct perception of something which is hot and something which is cold is experientially different and substantively different, even though both experiences are nonconceptual. The same applies to tasting salt and sugar.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
The absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pmWho said anything about accidents or chance?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?
There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
So are you now saying there is more than one intrinsic characteristic? Does very phenomenon have their own intrinsic characteristic then?Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:14 pm
A direct perception (pratyakṣa) by definition is nonconceptual and apprehends an intrinsic characteristic.
Since the intrinsic characteristic of red is different than that of blue, the nonconceptual direct perception of red and blue respectively are both experientially different and substantively different, just as the direct perception of something which is hot and something which is cold is experientially different and substantively different, even though both experiences are nonconceptual. The same applies to tasting salt and sugar.
OM SWABHAWA SHUDDHA SARWA DHARMA SAWBHAWA SHUDDHO HANG
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
I would say that the absolutely essential ingredient is one's true nature. It is there even when the Guru is not there.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pmThe absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pmWho said anything about accidents or chance?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?
There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
It is there yes, but it will never be known if it is not introduced to you by a qualified teacher of Dzogchen. That's a fact.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:19 pmI would say that the absolutely essential ingredient is one's true nature. It is there even when the Guru is not there.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pmThe absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm Who said anything about accidents or chance?
On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?
There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Yes, every phenomena can have one or more intrinsic characteristics (svalakṣana), for example, water has the intrinsic characteristics of limpidity, coolness, and wetness.
The intrinsic characteristics of a blue vase will be blueness, etc.
You need to go to Shedra, Greg.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
That is like the pauper who spends their whole life using a rock as a pillow, who dies not understanding that there is a wishfulfilling gem inside the rock.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:19 pmI would say that the absolutely essential ingredient is one's true nature. It is there even when the Guru is not there.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pmThe absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm Who said anything about accidents or chance?
On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?
There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
I agree that it will not be known if it is not introduced to you by a qualified teacher, and I will grant you the validity of the "of Dzogchen" qualifier, since we are in the Dzogchen forum.Norwegian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:48 pmIt is there yes, but it will never be known if it is not introduced to you by a qualified teacher of Dzogchen. That's a fact.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
I agree that this is true at the relative level.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:51 pmYes, every phenomena can have one or more intrinsic characteristics (svalakṣana), for example, water has the intrinsic characteristics of limpidity, coolness, and wetness.
The intrinsic characteristics of a blue vase will be blueness, etc.
You need to go to Shedra, Greg.
Otherwise you are describing Socratic noumena and as a Diogenian Cynic I will have to disagree.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Intrinsic characteristics are not held to be ultimate. Buddhist epistemology is nominalist, not realist. In other words, so called universals are considered to be conventionally unreal in Buddhadharma, whereas particulars are considered to be conventionally real.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:05 pmI agree that this is true at the relative level.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:51 pmYes, every phenomena can have one or more intrinsic characteristics (svalakṣana), for example, water has the intrinsic characteristics of limpidity, coolness, and wetness.
The intrinsic characteristics of a blue vase will be blueness, etc.
You need to go to Shedra, Greg.
Otherwise you are describing Socratic noumena and as a Diogenian Cynic I will have to disagree.
To understand Dzogchen terminology, one must have a basic grounding in Buddhist epistemology.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
You won't see me disagreeing.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:08 pmIntrinsic characteristics are not held to be ultimate. Buddhist epistemology is nominalist, not realist. In other words, so called universals are considered to be conventionally unreal in Buddhadharma, whereas particulars are considered to be conventionally real.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Afflictions make self discovery impossible. Mystical experience is sort of meaningless.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pmWho said anything about accidents or chance? There is this thing called past karma/accumulations.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?
There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
OK then, it's the moon of non-moon. Analogous to the meditation of non-meditation.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:18 pmThere is no moon where they are pointing. They have never been able to show it, much less prove it.
Whatever is the nature of the Tathāgata, that is the nature of the world;And that's not possible in a Buddhist context, unless you can disprove the theory of Buddha-nature altogether.
as the Tathāgata has no nature, the world also has no nature.
-- Nāgārjuna, MMK.
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
This deserves it's own topic and here it is.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:14 pmAfflictions make self discovery impossible. Mystical experience is sort of meaningless.Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pmWho said anything about accidents or chance? There is this thing called past karma/accumulations.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?
There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Thanks.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:32 pmI am sorry, I thought you were referring to how the term rang bzhin is used in Dzogchen as opposed to MMK. In this case, the former is prakRti and the latter is svabhAva.Sherab wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:35 amIf Nagarjuna when referring to the nature of the Tathagata used rang bzhin to mean ngo bo, wouldn't he have committed the fallacy of equivocation in the quotation?Sherab wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:31 am
Just to clarify, by former you are referring to the nature of the Tathagata and by latter you are referring to the nature of the world?
After posting the above, I went to search for your quotation in Tibetan and noted that rang bzhin was used throughout. There was no reference to ngo bo:
de bzhin gshegs pa'i rang bzhin gang/
de ni 'gro 'di'i rang bzhin yin/
de bzhin gshegs pa rang bzhin med/
'gro ba 'di yi rang bzhin med /
As an aside, when the MMK was first translated into Tibetan in the 8th century, svabhāva was translated as ngo bo nyid.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
A direct perception of taste is indeed non-conceptual in the sense that no thought is involved.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:14 pm
A direct perception (pratyakṣa) by definition is nonconceptual and apprehends an intrinsic characteristic.
Since the intrinsic characteristic of red is different than that of blue, the nonconceptual direct perception of red and blue respectively are both experientially different and substantively different, just as the direct perception of something which is hot and something which is cold is experientially different and substantively different, even though both experiences are nonconceptual. The same applies to tasting salt and sugar.
But it is still a conception in the sense that it is phenomenal.
Milarepa says when you look into the mind, it is not a thing to be seen. Remain in this state of no-seeing.
Ramana also says that the natural state is one where there is no seeing.
This no-seeing seems like it can be expressed as no-experiencing.
The body and senses function but with the absence of an experiencing entity.
So what is meant by "The experience is different"?
Phenomenal experiences are always different.
But can the absence of experience ever be different from itself?
Is there more than one way of experiencing nothing?
First we can address possible sameness in Nirvana, and then look at subsequent differences in taste.
It seems like investment in taste is not for oneself, but for the benefit of others.
For one whose hunger is satisfied, taste is an added luxury.
Last edited by silence123 on Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.