Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Natan
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Natan »

krodha wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:51 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:39 pm
krodha wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:28 pmMost who have practiced both paths in a serious manner state that in addition to being conceptually different, they are also experientially different.
Of course they would. They are, in both instances, judging a non-conceptual experience via their currently existing karmic view, after all.
No, I am saying that those who have practiced both paths, report that they are qualitatively different in an experiential sense. Like the taste of sugar and salt.

One would not assert that the taste of sugar and salt only differ in the aftermath of tasting them, when the non-conceptual experience of each is described differently.

They are actually different, experientially, as non-conceptual tastes. The same goes for these paths and their respective realizations, etc.
Let’s be honest there’s no wisdom path except Ati. Everything else is path of afflictions.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Natan »

Never in a trillion years will any advaita discover the mirror like wisdom emerging as deities and five lights. Come ON!!!! zap you with my ray gun.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Grigoris »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
Who said anything about accidents or chance? There is this thing called past karma/accumulations.

On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?

There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:08 pm By definition there can be no difference among/between non-conceptual experiences, the idea of difference only exists conceptually/relatively. ;)

A direct perception (pratyakṣa) by definition is nonconceptual and apprehends an intrinsic characteristic.

Since the intrinsic characteristic of red is different than that of blue, the nonconceptual direct perception of red and blue respectively are both experientially different and substantively different, just as the direct perception of something which is hot and something which is cold is experientially different and substantively different, even though both experiences are nonconceptual. The same applies to tasting salt and sugar.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
Who said anything about accidents or chance?

On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?

There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
The absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:14 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:08 pm By definition there can be no difference among/between non-conceptual experiences, the idea of difference only exists conceptually/relatively. ;)

A direct perception (pratyakṣa) by definition is nonconceptual and apprehends an intrinsic characteristic.

Since the intrinsic characteristic of red is different than that of blue, the nonconceptual direct perception of red and blue respectively are both experientially different and substantively different, just as the direct perception of something which is hot and something which is cold is experientially different and substantively different, even though both experiences are nonconceptual. The same applies to tasting salt and sugar.
So are you now saying there is more than one intrinsic characteristic? Does very phenomenon have their own intrinsic characteristic then?

OM SWABHAWA SHUDDHA SARWA DHARMA SAWBHAWA SHUDDHO HANG
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
Who said anything about accidents or chance?

On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?

There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
The absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.
I would say that the absolutely essential ingredient is one's true nature. It is there even when the Guru is not there.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Norwegian »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm Who said anything about accidents or chance?

On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?

There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
The absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.
I would say that the absolutely essential ingredient is one's true nature. It is there even when the Guru is not there.
It is there yes, but it will never be known if it is not introduced to you by a qualified teacher of Dzogchen. That's a fact.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:18 pm So are you now saying there is more than one intrinsic characteristic? Does very phenomenon have their own intrinsic characteristic then?
Yes, every phenomena can have one or more intrinsic characteristics (svalakṣana), for example, water has the intrinsic characteristics of limpidity, coolness, and wetness.

The intrinsic characteristics of a blue vase will be blueness, etc.

You need to go to Shedra, Greg.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm Who said anything about accidents or chance?

On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?

There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
The absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.
I would say that the absolutely essential ingredient is one's true nature. It is there even when the Guru is not there.
That is like the pauper who spends their whole life using a rock as a pillow, who dies not understanding that there is a wishfulfilling gem inside the rock.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Grigoris »

Norwegian wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:48 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pm

The absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realize one's true nature is the upadeśa of the guru, and virtually no one has that.
I would say that the absolutely essential ingredient is one's true nature. It is there even when the Guru is not there.
It is there yes, but it will never be known if it is not introduced to you by a qualified teacher of Dzogchen. That's a fact.
I agree that it will not be known if it is not introduced to you by a qualified teacher, and I will grant you the validity of the "of Dzogchen" qualifier, since we are in the Dzogchen forum. :smile:
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:51 pmYes, every phenomena can have one or more intrinsic characteristics (svalakṣana), for example, water has the intrinsic characteristics of limpidity, coolness, and wetness.

The intrinsic characteristics of a blue vase will be blueness, etc.

You need to go to Shedra, Greg.
I agree that this is true at the relative level.

Otherwise you are describing Socratic noumena and as a Diogenian Cynic I will have to disagree.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:51 pmYes, every phenomena can have one or more intrinsic characteristics (svalakṣana), for example, water has the intrinsic characteristics of limpidity, coolness, and wetness.

The intrinsic characteristics of a blue vase will be blueness, etc.

You need to go to Shedra, Greg.
I agree that this is true at the relative level.

Otherwise you are describing Socratic noumena and as a Diogenian Cynic I will have to disagree.
Intrinsic characteristics are not held to be ultimate. Buddhist epistemology is nominalist, not realist. In other words, so called universals are considered to be conventionally unreal in Buddhadharma, whereas particulars are considered to be conventionally real.

To understand Dzogchen terminology, one must have a basic grounding in Buddhist epistemology.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:08 pmIntrinsic characteristics are not held to be ultimate. Buddhist epistemology is nominalist, not realist. In other words, so called universals are considered to be conventionally unreal in Buddhadharma, whereas particulars are considered to be conventionally real.
You won't see me disagreeing.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Natan »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
Who said anything about accidents or chance? There is this thing called past karma/accumulations.

On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?

There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
Afflictions make self discovery impossible. Mystical experience is sort of meaningless.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Vaktar »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:18 pm
Vaktar wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:07 pm And all wrong views aside, to disprove the "claim" (more like a friendly suggestion) that Atmavadis, or Christians, or Sufis, are pointing at the same moon as Dzogchenpas, you'd have to prove there was no moon where they were pointing.
There is no moon where they are pointing. They have never been able to show it, much less prove it.

And that's not possible in a Buddhist context, unless you can disprove the theory of Buddha-nature altogether.
Whatever is the nature of the Tathāgata, that is the nature of the world;
as the Tathāgata has no nature, the world also has no nature.


-- Nāgārjuna, MMK.
OK then, it's the moon of non-moon. Analogous to the meditation of non-meditation.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Grigoris »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:14 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pmOh heel no they don’t. Atiyoga is impossible to glimpse by accident.
Who said anything about accidents or chance? There is this thing called past karma/accumulations.

On the other hand: What do you think the chances are of having a truly "mystical experience" if you try to have one?

There is only one absolutely essential ingredient necessary to realise one's true nature and EVERY - BODY/THING has that.
Afflictions make self discovery impossible. Mystical experience is sort of meaningless.
This deserves it's own topic and here it is.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

Vaktar wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:45 pm

OK then, it's the moon of non-moon. Analogous to the meditation of non-meditation.
Not even remotely...
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Sherab »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:32 pm
Sherab wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:35 am
Sherab wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:31 am
Just to clarify, by former you are referring to the nature of the Tathagata and by latter you are referring to the nature of the world?

After posting the above, I went to search for your quotation in Tibetan and noted that rang bzhin was used throughout. There was no reference to ngo bo:
de bzhin gshegs pa'i rang bzhin gang/
de ni 'gro 'di'i rang bzhin yin/
de bzhin gshegs pa rang bzhin med/
'gro ba 'di yi rang bzhin med /
If Nagarjuna when referring to the nature of the Tathagata used rang bzhin to mean ngo bo, wouldn't he have committed the fallacy of equivocation in the quotation?
I am sorry, I thought you were referring to how the term rang bzhin is used in Dzogchen as opposed to MMK. In this case, the former is prakRti and the latter is svabhAva.

As an aside, when the MMK was first translated into Tibetan in the 8th century, svabhāva was translated as ngo bo nyid.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by silence123 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:14 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:08 pm By definition there can be no difference among/between non-conceptual experiences, the idea of difference only exists conceptually/relatively. ;)

A direct perception (pratyakṣa) by definition is nonconceptual and apprehends an intrinsic characteristic.

Since the intrinsic characteristic of red is different than that of blue, the nonconceptual direct perception of red and blue respectively are both experientially different and substantively different, just as the direct perception of something which is hot and something which is cold is experientially different and substantively different, even though both experiences are nonconceptual. The same applies to tasting salt and sugar.
A direct perception of taste is indeed non-conceptual in the sense that no thought is involved.
But it is still a conception in the sense that it is phenomenal.

Milarepa says when you look into the mind, it is not a thing to be seen. Remain in this state of no-seeing.
Ramana also says that the natural state is one where there is no seeing.

This no-seeing seems like it can be expressed as no-experiencing.
The body and senses function but with the absence of an experiencing entity.

So what is meant by "The experience is different"?

Phenomenal experiences are always different.
But can the absence of experience ever be different from itself?

Is there more than one way of experiencing nothing?
First we can address possible sameness in Nirvana, and then look at subsequent differences in taste.

It seems like investment in taste is not for oneself, but for the benefit of others.
For one whose hunger is satisfied, taste is an added luxury.
Last edited by silence123 on Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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