Love for it's own sake

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Desafinado
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Love for it's own sake

Post by Desafinado »

I've been studying and thinking deeply about Zen Buddhism for a number of years now, and eventually felt like I hit a crossroads. I discovered that I understood Zen and Buddhism, and had achieved the freedom that this entails, but I just didn't like the world I was living in. I made a previous thread about this that discussed Samsara.

And I wanted to share my resolution, which is that I can simply 'love for it's own sake', to bring more happiness, joy, and beauty into the world. If I'm basically alone in a selfish, careless world, I can be the literal antipode of that. Someone who does love and care.

I find this concept different from Metta Meditation, in the sense that I find Metta vague and unconcrete. Where 'loving for it's own sake' has a concrete rationale, it literally brings happiness and positivity into a world that desperately needs it.

What is the question? Love is the answer. Sorry for the cheese.

:namaste:
reiun
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by reiun »

Desafinado wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:13 pm I've been studying and thinking deeply about Zen Buddhism for a number of years now, and eventually felt like I hit a crossroads. I discovered that I understood Zen and Buddhism, and had achieved the freedom that this entails . . .
What was the verification of this discovery and that achievement, in your mind or otherwise?
Meido
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by Meido »

Desafinado wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:13 pm ...and had achieved the freedom that this entails, but I just didn't like the world I was living in.
Doesn't sound very free.
Desafinado
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by Desafinado »

reiun wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:35 pm
Desafinado wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:13 pm I've been studying and thinking deeply about Zen Buddhism for a number of years now, and eventually felt like I hit a crossroads. I discovered that I understood Zen and Buddhism, and had achieved the freedom that this entails . . .
What was the verification of this discovery and that achievement, in your mind or otherwise?
"Real freedom is freedom from what's bothering you" - Katsuki Sekida

I've been in the ballpark of that meaning for years, but this quote landed on the nose.
Desafinado
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by Desafinado »

Meido wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:12 am
Desafinado wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:13 pm ...and had achieved the freedom that this entails, but I just didn't like the world I was living in.
Doesn't sound very free.
Interesting reply, thanks. If life / the world weren't inherently a bit negative, we wouldn't need Zen, no? Zen is how we achieve freedom from that negativity.

And yes, maybe we can't be free of the world, but we can be free in the world.
master of puppets
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by master of puppets »

İf it is to find the meaning you will find it;
but it is to find the way that which is important.
master of puppets
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by master of puppets »

If you're enough rich you want to share it with everyone to live; ı think no more to deepen on it!
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Love for it's own sake

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Desafinado wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:13 pm I've been studying and thinking deeply about Zen Buddhism for a number of years now, and eventually felt like I hit a crossroads. I discovered that I understood Zen and Buddhism, and had achieved the freedom that this entails, but I just didn't like the world I was living in. I made a previous thread about this that discussed Samsara.
It sounds like you developed a strong sense of renunciation, it can turn to a place of pessimism if practice grinds to a halt there.
And I wanted to share my resolution, which is that I can simply 'love for its own sake', to bring more happiness, joy, and beauty into the world. If I'm basically alone in a selfish, careless world, I can be the literal antipode of that. Someone who does love and care.
The root of all dharmas is one’s own mind, there is no selfish, careless world outside of our experiences.
I find this concept different from Metta Meditation, in the sense that I find Metta vague and unconcrete. Where 'loving for its own sake' has a concrete rationale, it literally brings happiness and positivity into a world that desperately needs it.
Metta is a perspective that wishes happiness and the causes of happiness for all beings, it does not carry expectations.
Interesting reply, thanks. If life / the world weren't inherently a bit negative, we wouldn't need Zen, no? Zen is how we achieve freedom from that negativity.
That is the development of renunciation, but again the world is not inherently anything, and has no definable characteristics outside of our experiencing of it.

Why does that matter? Developing the Four Immeasurables is a relational practice, if you reify it into “I love the world despite its shittiness”, that’s a limitation, insightful you vs. stupid world.

It serves its purpose and we’ve all been at these points before, but it’s not the whole story, just a station the vehicle stops at as it’s making its journey..don’t take off, miss the next train and get stuck in the station eating stale Funyuns.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Desafinado
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by Desafinado »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:08 pm
Desafinado wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:13 pm I've been studying and thinking deeply about Zen Buddhism for a number of years now, and eventually felt like I hit a crossroads. I discovered that I understood Zen and Buddhism, and had achieved the freedom that this entails, but I just didn't like the world I was living in. I made a previous thread about this that discussed Samsara.
It sounds like you developed a strong sense of renunciation, it can turn to a place of pessimism if practice grinds to a halt there.
And I wanted to share my resolution, which is that I can simply 'love for its own sake', to bring more happiness, joy, and beauty into the world. If I'm basically alone in a selfish, careless world, I can be the literal antipode of that. Someone who does love and care.
The root of all dharmas is one’s own mind, there is no selfish, careless world outside of our experiences.
I find this concept different from Metta Meditation, in the sense that I find Metta vague and unconcrete. Where 'loving for its own sake' has a concrete rationale, it literally brings happiness and positivity into a world that desperately needs it.
Metta is a perspective that wishes happiness and the causes of happiness for all beings, it does not carry expectations.
Interesting reply, thanks. If life / the world weren't inherently a bit negative, we wouldn't need Zen, no? Zen is how we achieve freedom from that negativity.
That is the development of renunciation, but again the world is not inherently anything, and has no definable characteristics outside of our experiencing of it.

Why does that matter? Developing the Four Immeasurables is a relational practice, if you reify it into “I love the world despite its shittiness”, that’s a limitation, insightful you vs. stupid world.

It serves its purpose and we’ve all been at these points before, but it’s not the whole story, just a station the vehicle stops at as it’s making its journey..don’t take off, miss the next train and get stuck in the station eating stale Funyuns.
I appreciate the advice, although I don't see my view as renunciation, I see it as realism, and the stem of Buddhism (and religion more broadly). The world absolutely exists, and absolutely has objective properties that I'm aware of.

I won't go into too much depth, but it's a fact that I've experienced significant violence in my life. And when I'm not experiencing violence it's usually indifference. That's not meant to be pessimistic, but realistic. In real life I'm quite successful on a lot of fronts, and living a satisfying life, I'm just also clear-eyed about how the world works.

The question I found myself facing was - in a world filled with so much ignorance, violence, and indifference, why care at all? The OP is my answer to that.
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clyde
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by clyde »

Desafinado wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:13 pm I can simply 'love for it's own sake', to bring more happiness, joy, and beauty into the world.
It seems silly to argue with that.

:namaste:
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Desafinado wrote: I appreciate the advice, although I don't see my view as renunciation, I see it as realism, and the stem of Buddhism (and religion more broadly). The world absolutely exists, and absolutely has objective properties that I'm aware of.
In Buddhism seeing samsara as it is is renunciation. That said, most forms of Buddhism do not see the world as some enduring thing with “objective properties”…I mean there are different takes but emptiness of the phenomenal world is a major theme, it is in all Dharmic religions really.
I won't go into too much depth, but it's a fact that I've experienced significant violence in my life. And when I'm not experiencing violence it's usually indifference. That's not meant to be pessimistic, but realistic. In real life I'm quite successful on a lot of fronts, and living a satisfying life, I'm just also clear-eyed about how the world works.
Yes, many people have trauma (I do too) and insist that it makes their perspective enduring, but perspectives by nature do not endure.
The question I found myself facing was - in a world filled with so much ignorance, violence, and indifference, why care at all? The OP is my answer to that.
Yes, and how to care is a major question too. I think when we take Refuge and especially Bodhisattva vows we make a commitment to take altruistic actions without expectation, excellent!
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Desafinado
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Re: Love for it's own sake

Post by Desafinado »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:11 am
Desafinado wrote: I appreciate the advice, although I don't see my view as renunciation, I see it as realism, and the stem of Buddhism (and religion more broadly). The world absolutely exists, and absolutely has objective properties that I'm aware of.
In Buddhism seeing samsara as it is is renunciation. That said, most forms of Buddhism do not see the world as some enduring thing with “objective properties”…I mean there are different takes but emptiness of the phenomenal world is a major theme, it is in all Dharmic religions really.
I won't go into too much depth, but it's a fact that I've experienced significant violence in my life. And when I'm not experiencing violence it's usually indifference. That's not meant to be pessimistic, but realistic. In real life I'm quite successful on a lot of fronts, and living a satisfying life, I'm just also clear-eyed about how the world works.
Yes, many people have trauma (I do too) and insist that it makes their perspective enduring, but perspectives by nature do not endure.
The question I found myself facing was - in a world filled with so much ignorance, violence, and indifference, why care at all? The OP is my answer to that.
Yes, and how to care is a major question too. I think when we take Refuge and especially Bodhisattva vows we make a commitment to take altruistic actions without expectation, excellent!
I think I've misunderstood your meaning behind the term renunciation, so thanks for that. Something new for me.

And yes there are a few points that I feel I differ from on the typical Buddhist view. I won't go into depth, but generally I try to avoid escapism. I feel Buddhism is, ultimately, wisdom that can be used to live a good life from a more pragmatic, realist perspective.

Also thanks for tying the Bodhisattva vow into this. I tend to forget that it's an explicit thing, as I often just follow it instinctively / it's what I do.
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