Yogacara and the Tathgatagarbha - split from Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

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Yogacara and the Tathgatagarbha - split from Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

Post by a Zen Rōnin »

Vajrasvapna wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:56 pm...

I even think that some explanations I have received, where causality is seen as very deterministic, contradict what is said in the Pali Canon, Abhidharma Literature, and even the idea that everything is a result of multiple causes and effects, as a nonlinear model in mathematics is a model that appears random but isn't.

If someone tells you that your suffering is the result of conventional consciousness of attachment, that doesn't seem negative, especially for victims of abuse. As in the Yogacara and Pramanadin doctrines, cultivating the Buddha-consciousness: reflective science is the remedy. Moreover, there is the example of Ratnakashanti with the 4 yogas, providing an open explanation and a practice explanation along with the tantric yogas of generation and completion.


Yogācāra did not believe nor espoused so-called "Buddha-consciousness". If you look and read properly the "Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra" and "Ch'eng Wei-Shih Lun (The Doctrine of Mere-Consciousness", Yogācāra did not adhere to such notion as "tathagatagarbha " (aka, Buddha-conciousness/Buddha Mind). Yogācāra teaches that there is no good and pure essence in each of us. In fact, Yogācāra teaches that there are some who are classified as "icchantika" (sentient beings lacking the nature (potential) for liberation). The 8th consciousness (alaya-vijñāna) is NOT the Buddha nature. It is the storehouse of all our karmic (thoughts, speech, deeds) seeds we have accumulatated, which consists of both good and bad. Therefore, Yogācāra teaches the eradication of this alaya-vijñāna to attain enlightenment (which takes three asaṃkhya kalpas) and be free from the cycle of rebirth or samsara, and not to polish it.

:namaste:

Cheng Wei shi lun https://archive.org/details/chengweishi ... 9/mode/2up
https://www.lastelladelmattino.org/wp-c ... usness.pdf

Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra https://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/CE018.pdf
Last edited by Ayu on Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

a Zen Rōnin wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:27 am
Vajrasvapna wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:56 pm...

I even think that some explanations I have received, where causality is seen as very deterministic, contradict what is said in the Pali Canon, Abhidharma Literature, and even the idea that everything is a result of multiple causes and effects, as a nonlinear model in mathematics is a model that appears random but isn't.

If someone tells you that your suffering is the result of conventional consciousness of attachment, that doesn't seem negative, especially for victims of abuse. As in the Yogacara and Pramanadin doctrines, cultivating the Buddha-consciousness: reflective science is the remedy. Moreover, there is the example of Ratnakashanti with the 4 yogas, providing an open explanation and a practice explanation along with the tantric yogas of generation and completion.


Yogācāra did not believe nor espoused so-called "Buddha-consciousness". If you look and read properly the "Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra" and "Ch'eng Wei-Shih Lun (The Doctrine of Mere-Consciousness", Yogācāra did not adhere to such notion as "tathagatagarbha " (aka, Buddha-conciousness/Buddha Mind). Yogācāra teaches that there is no good and pure essence in each of us. In fact, Yogācāra teaches that there are some who are classified as "icchantika" (sentient beings lacking the nature (potential) for liberation). The 8th consciousness (alaya-vijñāna) is NOT the Buddha nature. It is the storehouse of all our karmic (thoughts, speech, deeds) seeds we have accumulatated, which consists of both good and bad. Therefore, Yogācāra teaches the eradication of this alaya-vijñāna to attain enlightenment (which takes three asaṃkhya kalpas) and be free from the cycle of rebirth or samsara, and not to polish it.

:namaste:

Cheng Wei shi lun https://archive.org/details/chengweishi ... 9/mode/2up
https://www.lastelladelmattino.org/wp-c ... usness.pdf

Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra https://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/CE018.pdf
The alaya purified of habit energy, etc. is the Buddha Nature, for example in the Lankavatara sutra.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

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Demonstration of Conciousness Only is a commentary on Vasubandhu’s Triṃśikā
https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/thre ... ness-only/
https://bdkamerica.org/download/1861

THE TREATISE ON THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE DOCTRINE OF CONSCIOUSNESS-ONLY
https://www.dhalbi.org/publ/journ1/wt_j1.pdf

The Discourse On Realizing There is Only The Virtual Nature of Consciousness Vijñapti Matratā Siddhi
https://anlacpublications.com/wp-conten ... e-cwsl.pdf
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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

Post by a Zen Rōnin »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:32 pm
a Zen Rōnin wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:27 am
Vajrasvapna wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:56 pm...

I even think that some explanations I have received, where causality is seen as very deterministic, contradict what is said in the Pali Canon, Abhidharma Literature, and even the idea that everything is a result of multiple causes and effects, as a nonlinear model in mathematics is a model that appears random but isn't.

If someone tells you that your suffering is the result of conventional consciousness of attachment, that doesn't seem negative, especially for victims of abuse. As in the Yogacara and Pramanadin doctrines, cultivating the Buddha-consciousness: reflective science is the remedy. Moreover, there is the example of Ratnakashanti with the 4 yogas, providing an open explanation and a practice explanation along with the tantric yogas of generation and completion.


Yogācāra did not believe nor espoused so-called "Buddha-consciousness". If you look and read properly the "Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra" and "Ch'eng Wei-Shih Lun (The Doctrine of Mere-Consciousness", Yogācāra did not adhere to such notion as "tathagatagarbha " (aka, Buddha-conciousness/Buddha Mind). Yogācāra teaches that there is no good and pure essence in each of us. In fact, Yogācāra teaches that there are some who are classified as "icchantika" (sentient beings lacking the nature (potential) for liberation). The 8th consciousness (alaya-vijñāna) is NOT the Buddha nature. It is the storehouse of all our karmic (thoughts, speech, deeds) seeds we have accumulatated, which consists of both good and bad. Therefore, Yogācāra teaches the eradication of this alaya-vijñāna to attain enlightenment (which takes three asaṃkhya kalpas) and be free from the cycle of rebirth or samsara, and not to polish it.

:namaste:

Cheng Wei shi lun https://archive.org/details/chengweishi ... 9/mode/2up
https://www.lastelladelmattino.org/wp-c ... usness.pdf

Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra https://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/CE018.pdf
The alaya purified of habit energy, etc. is the Buddha Nature, for example in the Lankavatara sutra.

No, it is not. The alaya-vijñāna is NOT a fixed entity or suchness, neither pure Tathagata-garbha. There were mistranslations of Chinese translators upon coming of the Buddhist sutras of Xuan Zhang. The chinese translators were not in line with how Xuan Zang understood the teachings that he procured from Nalanda.
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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

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a Zen Rōnin wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:38 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:32 pm
a Zen Rōnin wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:27 am


Yogācāra did not believe nor espoused so-called "Buddha-consciousness". If you look and read properly the "Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra" and "Ch'eng Wei-Shih Lun (The Doctrine of Mere-Consciousness", Yogācāra did not adhere to such notion as "tathagatagarbha " (aka, Buddha-conciousness/Buddha Mind). Yogācāra teaches that there is no good and pure essence in each of us. In fact, Yogācāra teaches that there are some who are classified as "icchantika" (sentient beings lacking the nature (potential) for liberation). The 8th consciousness (alaya-vijñāna) is NOT the Buddha nature. It is the storehouse of all our karmic (thoughts, speech, deeds) seeds we have accumulatated, which consists of both good and bad. Therefore, Yogācāra teaches the eradication of this alaya-vijñāna to attain enlightenment (which takes three asaṃkhya kalpas) and be free from the cycle of rebirth or samsara, and not to polish it.

:namaste:

Cheng Wei shi lun https://archive.org/details/chengweishi ... 9/mode/2up
https://www.lastelladelmattino.org/wp-c ... usness.pdf

Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra https://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/CE018.pdf
The alaya purified of habit energy, etc. is the Buddha Nature, for example in the Lankavatara sutra.

No, it is not. The alaya-vijñāna is NOT a fixed entity or suchness, neither pure Tathagata-garbha. There were mistranslations of Chinese translators upon coming of the Buddhist sutras of Xuan Zhang. The chinese translators were not in line with how Xuan Zang understood the teachings that he procured from Nalanda.
I didn’t say it was a “fixed entity” whatever that is, also unsure why you are relating that and suchness.. but this is a standard idea from the Lankavatara and is pretty non-controversial, regardless of translation, which is covered by the Sutra itself, and explains how the Tathagatagarbha is not a self, soul, etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:40 pm
a Zen Rōnin wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:38 am The alaya-vijñāna is NOT a fixed entity or suchness, neither pure Tathagata-garbha.
I didn’t say it was a “fixed entity” whatever that is
I think the point being made is that Buddha-nature (tathagatagharba) isn’t some kind of entity in itself. It’s like saying that fire has heat-nature and light-nature to describe the fundamental or original nature of fire. Tathagatagharba is the original, fundamental nature of mind. This Buddha-mind is the same perfect clarity regardless if it is experienced by prince siddhartha or you or me.

This is actually a very significant point because there were those in India that held the view that mind’s original nature was confused and needed to be cleared up by means of various austere practices and so forth. This is not unlike the Christian view of being born with original sin of which one needs to be cleansed.

And really the whole point about driving all blames into one (And you can find even more self-effacing practices such as this in 37 Practices of Bodhisattva) is In order to get the practitioner to cut through self cherishing, self grasping, etc., and not a means of victim-blaming or of coming up with some sort of superstitious explanation for why people had birthmarks of were disabled or whatever. Obviously, through the centuries people often took it in that direction.
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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:49 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:40 pm
a Zen Rōnin wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:38 am The alaya-vijñāna is NOT a fixed entity or suchness, neither pure Tathagata-garbha.
I didn’t say it was a “fixed entity” whatever that is
I think the point being made is that Buddha-nature (tathagatagharba) isn’t some kind of entity in itself. It’s like saying that fire has heat-nature and light-nature to describe the fundamental or original nature of fire. Tathagatagharba is the original, fundamental nature of mind. This Buddha-mind is the same perfect clarity regardless if it is experienced by prince siddhartha or you or me.

This is actually a very significant point because there were those in India that held the view that mind’s original nature was confused and needed to be cleared up by means of various austere practices and so forth. This is not unlike the Christian view of being born with original sin of which one needs to be cleansed.

And really the whole point about driving all blames into one (And you can find even more self-effacing practices such as this in 37 Practices of Bodhisattva) is In order to get the practitioner to cut through self cherishing, self grasping, etc., and not a means of victim-blaming or of coming up with some sort of superstitious explanation for why people had birthmarks of were disabled or whatever. Obviously, through the centuries people often took it in that direction.
I mean, it’s a pretty typical criticism of Yogcara, “hey that’s just like a soul”, but IMO a somewhat sloppy one, and one which again is addressed by various Tathagatagarbha sutras, in the Tibetan traditions often handled by referencing Madhymaka, etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

Post by a Zen Rōnin »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:40 pm
a Zen Rōnin wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:38 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:32 pm
The alaya purified of habit energy, etc. is the Buddha Nature, for example in the Lankavatara sutra.

No, it is not. The alaya-vijñāna is NOT a fixed entity or suchness, neither pure Tathagata-garbha. There were mistranslations of Chinese translators upon coming of the Buddhist sutras of Xuan Zhang. The chinese translators were not in line with how Xuan Zang understood the teachings that he procured from Nalanda.
I didn’t say it was a “fixed entity” whatever that is, also unsure why you are relating that and suchness.. but this is a standard idea from the Lankavatara and is pretty non-controversial, regardless of translation, which is covered by the Sutra itself, and explains how the Tathagatagarbha is not a self, soul, etc.
sorry, I just based it from what you previously said "equating" the Tathagata-garbha (Buddha-nature) with alaya-vijñāna (8th consciousness aka storehouse consciousness). You said "The alaya purified of habit energy, etc. IS Buddha Nature". The alaya is never pure. It is a mixture of good and evil tendencies acquired through speech, thought, and actions. The Buddha Nature is "pristine, pure" capable of rising toward Buddhahood by removing defilements on it. You cannot remove defilements acquired in the alaya-vijñāna (so it is not Buddha-nature); instead eradication of the alaya-vijñāna leads to enlightenment and Buddhahood. Quite different.

Suggested reading:

1. How Buddhism Acquired a Soul on the Way to China (Dungnon Park)
Link: https://archive.org/details/howbuddhism ... ngnok_56_u

2. Indian transplants: tathāāgatagarbha and Yogāācāāra. Buddhist philosophy,Chinese (Dan Lusthaus)
Link: https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/ ... d-yogacara

"In their classical formulations the ālaya-vijñāna and tathāgatagarbha were distinct items differing from each other in important ways – for instance, enlightenment entailed bringing the ālaya-vijñāna to an end, while it meant actualizing the tathāgatagarbha; the ālaya-vijñāna functioned asthe karmic mechanism par excellence, while tathāgatagarbha was considered the antipode to allkarmic defilements. Nonetheless some Buddhist texts, such as the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra, conflatedthe two. Those identifying the two argued that the ālaya-vijñāna, like tathāgatagarbha, was pureand its purity became permanently established after enlightenment. Those opposing theconflation countered that the ālaya-vijñāna was itself defiled and needed to be eliminated inorder to reach enlightenment. For the conflators, tathāgatagarbha was identified with Buddha-nature and with mind (xin) (see Xin). Mind was considered pure, eternal, and the ontologicalground of reality (Dharma-dhātu), while defiled thought-instants (nian) that engaged indelusionary false discriminations had to be eliminated."
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Re: Criticism of Kadampa and Atisha Mind Training

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

a Zen Rōnin wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 4:08 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:40 pm
a Zen Rōnin wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:38 am


No, it is not. The alaya-vijñāna is NOT a fixed entity or suchness, neither pure Tathagata-garbha. There were mistranslations of Chinese translators upon coming of the Buddhist sutras of Xuan Zhang. The chinese translators were not in line with how Xuan Zang understood the teachings that he procured from Nalanda.
I didn’t say it was a “fixed entity” whatever that is, also unsure why you are relating that and suchness.. but this is a standard idea from the Lankavatara and is pretty non-controversial, regardless of translation, which is covered by the Sutra itself, and explains how the Tathagatagarbha is not a self, soul, etc.
sorry, I just based it from what you previously said "equating" the Tathagata-garbha (Buddha-nature) with alaya-vijñāna (8th consciousness aka storehouse consciousness). You said "The alaya purified of habit energy, etc. IS Buddha Nature". The alaya is never pure. It is a mixture of good and evil tendencies acquired through speech, thought, and actions. The Buddha Nature is "pristine, pure" capable of rising toward Buddhahood by removing defilements on it. You cannot remove defilements acquired in the alaya-vijñāna (so it is not Buddha-nature); instead eradication of the alaya-vijñāna leads to enlightenment and Buddhahood. Quite different.

Suggested reading:

1. How Buddhism Acquired a Soul on the Way to China (Dungnon Park)
Link: https://archive.org/details/howbuddhism ... ngnok_56_u

2. Indian transplants: tathāāgatagarbha and Yogāācāāra. Buddhist philosophy,Chinese (Dan Lusthaus)
Link: https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/ ... d-yogacara

"In their classical formulations the ālaya-vijñāna and tathāgatagarbha were distinct items differing from each other in important ways – for instance, enlightenment entailed bringing the ālaya-vijñāna to an end, while it meant actualizing the tathāgatagarbha; the ālaya-vijñāna functioned asthe karmic mechanism par excellence, while tathāgatagarbha was considered the antipode to allkarmic defilements. Nonetheless some Buddhist texts, such as the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra, conflatedthe two. Those identifying the two argued that the ālaya-vijñāna, like tathāgatagarbha, was pureand its purity became permanently established after enlightenment. Those opposing theconflation countered that the ālaya-vijñāna was itself defiled and needed to be eliminated inorder to reach enlightenment. For the conflators, tathāgatagarbha was identified with Buddha-nature and with mind (xin) (see Xin). Mind was considered pure, eternal, and the ontologicalground of reality (Dharma-dhātu), while defiled thought-instants (nian) that engaged indelusionary false discriminations had to be eliminated."
Ok, maybe someone else is interested in a reshashing of this debate, so I gave it's own thread separate from the Atisha/Mind training thread.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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