An Inevitable Exodus...

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Sādhaka
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Sādhaka »

Virgo wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 6:29 amAccepting that homo-sapiens are apes is not going to be a deal-breaker for any scientifically literate Buddhist.

I see the Abhidharma, Aggañña Sutra and Sound Tantra presentation as valid. I.e. that we originally descended from deva like beings (we would all have once been these beings), which implies that apes are an devolution, not an evolution.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 12:09 pm
Virgo wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 6:29 am That said, science has largely been pointing towards physicalism (or at least that is what people have believed). As it starts pointing elsewhere, as it is now, that trend of displacement will stop (I am surprised this part isn't obvious to people).
I don’t think there’s really an “elsewhere” involved. What I mean is, no changing directions.

Rather, materialists are always trying to better understand and to redefine matter. As a result, we now understand that the physical world is not as solid as we thought it was a century ago. And they will continued to do so, until the concepts of “physical” and “material” as we know them today simply don’t apply any more.
I think this may be the point you are making.

They may eventually align closer with the way the universe is viewed in various spiritual traditions but I think this would suggest two different roads leading eventually to the same destination, rather than a directional shift by either.

At the same time, look at how often Buddhists get excited when some “physicalist” scientific research ‘validates’ things such as the effects of meditation. It works both ways.
Yes, it’s best to avoid being doctrinaire about this and just discuss the ideas.

The scientific method is hugely useful and can do incredible, vital things when pointed in a positive direction. It’s also valuable to learn about how science works to be more media literate, and to realize how bad a lot of science reporting is.

That said, approaching existence as if it is only physical carries with it certain assumptions that are contrary to Dharma practice. I think we can recognize and talk about that without being dogmatic, just as non-Buddhist philosophers, etc. can and do.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Agnikan
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Agnikan »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 3:22 pm
Virgo wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 6:29 amAccepting that homo-sapiens are apes is not going to be a deal-breaker for any scientifically literate Buddhist.

I see the Abhidharma, Aggañña Sutra and Sound Tantra presentation as valid. I.e. that we originally descended from deva like beings (we would all have once been these beings), which implies that apes are an devolution, not an evolution.
Or it implies that human bodies evolved from ape bodies, but human consciousness descended from deva-like beings.
Or it implies that apes descended from less-than-deva-like beings.
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Sādhaka
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Sādhaka »

Agnikan wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 5:44 pmOr it implies that human bodies evolved from ape bodies, but human consciousness descended from deva-like beings.
Or it implies that apes descended from less-than-deva-like beings.

Yeah I don’t really know. The said Buddhist scriptures just make more sense to me than the current mainstream scientifical world view.

H.P. Blavatsky’s writings seem to fill in some of the blanks, that is of some things not specifically mentioned in the Abhidharma, Aggañña Sutra and Sound Tantra, regarding human origins and evolution & devolution. Most here probably wouldn’t agree ….
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jun 01, 2024 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Sorry to jump right back to the OP but this only just crossed my mind...
Virgo wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 7:54 am The coming complete and utter exodus from physicalism by scientists is inevitable. This inevitability is just beginning now, but it will sweep through the scientific community in the coming decades. It just takes time ...
Quite a lot of time, actually.
Jeans embraces a variant of metaphysical idealism. Not only does the universe begin “to look more like a great thought than like a great machine” (page 137), but some kind of active agent seems to be involved: “If the universe is a universe of thought, then its creation must have been an act of thought” (pages 133–134). Although Jeans does not think that such a creative act of thought necessarily had humans or human emotions in mind, he does posit the existence of some kind of creator—a “Great Architect” who appears to be a “pure mathematician” (page 122). And if true, then the mind “no longer appears as an accidental intruder into the realm of matter; we are beginning to suspect that we ought rather to hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter” (page 137).
Who? James Jeans, mathematician, physicist, astronomer, honorary secretary of the Royal Society of London for a decade, etc.
When? 1930.

Those quotes are in https://pubs.aip.org/physicstoday/artic ... niverseThe, in a long essay which roams freely from Russell and Wittgenstein to Moore and Sagan.
:reading:

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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Virgo »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 12:09 pm
Rather, materialists are always trying to better understand and to redefine matter. As a result, we now understand that the physical world is not as solid as we thought it was a century ago. And they will continued to do so, until the concepts of “physical” and “material” as we know them today simply don’t apply any more.
I think this may be the point you are making.
No, it isn't at all. It has to do with quantum entanglement, the violation of Bell's Inequality, and things of that nature. But don't worry about it.

:namaste: Virgo
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Miorita
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Miorita »

Quantum entanglement would be dependent origination in Buddhism.
And Bell's Inequality I did not study yet. Sorry, I'm not at the level of a genius!

But I still don't see what you want to prove.
A scientist has his own tools in science and results would be in science, and a buddhist has his mind as contemplative object with tools acquired in time.

Independent researches and inquiries may lead to similar results and it has happened many time before, but it would not explain nor will there be an exodus of people migrating with cats and dogs from one point of view to another. The problem is false.

Rather you could say that in the future science will converge in some or all of its tenents with long held buddhist views of the world.
Last edited by Miorita on Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by natusake »

Miorita wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:47 pm Quantum entanglement would be dependent origination in Buddhism.
Indeed, all the results of the physical sciences are examples of dependent origination.
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by PeterC »

Queequeg wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 1:50 pm I'm not suggesting Buddhadharma be introduced and advocated in the manner of our Evangelical fellows. I don't think that is in our DNA. But, we probably ought to have better outreach, more openness about what we do and what we believe. Right now, the most popular image of Buddhism is probably a home decor store Buddha. Light a scented candle, get a glass of pink wine, and find your bliss. Buddhadharma is a much more serious and I would say, hard hitting, approach to the world. It is radical and revolutionary, and frankly, a message the world would really benefit from hearing, regardless of whether they became practitioners or not. The separation of Church and State means we're not in danger of getting aligned with the State. We're adequately relegated to the fringes that we can share our ideas without becoming a threat to anyone. We are free to toss out the little seeds of ideas where they will take in fertile soil if it is there. Right now, we mostly keep to our little bonsai pots for whatever complex of reasons and sensibilities.
This characterization may be broadly true in the U.S. and Europe, but that is a small minority of the world’s population.

I don’t think we have any obligation to explain anything we do, except perhaps if asked sincerely. Sakyamuni did quite a lot of that but we don’t live in his time and aren’t Samyaksambuddhas. We should set an example through how we live and interact with others as this is canonically how we’re supposed to attract other people interested in achieving liberation from suffering. But I’ve no desire to get into the competitive religions game - one which often went badly for Sakyamuni himself.

If someone has the conditions, they’ll eventually find us. We don’t need to do any PR.
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Queequeg »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:15 am
Queequeg wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 1:50 pm I'm not suggesting Buddhadharma be introduced and advocated in the manner of our Evangelical fellows. I don't think that is in our DNA. But, we probably ought to have better outreach, more openness about what we do and what we believe. Right now, the most popular image of Buddhism is probably a home decor store Buddha. Light a scented candle, get a glass of pink wine, and find your bliss. Buddhadharma is a much more serious and I would say, hard hitting, approach to the world. It is radical and revolutionary, and frankly, a message the world would really benefit from hearing, regardless of whether they became practitioners or not. The separation of Church and State means we're not in danger of getting aligned with the State. We're adequately relegated to the fringes that we can share our ideas without becoming a threat to anyone. We are free to toss out the little seeds of ideas where they will take in fertile soil if it is there. Right now, we mostly keep to our little bonsai pots for whatever complex of reasons and sensibilities.
This characterization may be broadly true in the U.S. and Europe, but that is a small minority of the world’s population.

I don’t think we have any obligation to explain anything we do, except perhaps if asked sincerely. Sakyamuni did quite a lot of that but we don’t live in his time and aren’t Samyaksambuddhas. We should set an example through how we live and interact with others as this is canonically how we’re supposed to attract other people interested in achieving liberation from suffering. But I’ve no desire to get into the competitive religions game - one which often went badly for Sakyamuni himself.

If someone has the conditions, they’ll eventually find us. We don’t need to do any PR.
That is a view. I don't think it actually lines up with the canon. And it doesn't mean being competitive or anything else. Respectfully, you read more into my comment than I wrote.

Buddhism is wilting on the vine in the cultures where it had previously been adopted.

I've said my piece on this. Nothing to belabor.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by narhwal90 »

Removed argumentative posts, please keep the conversation civil.
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Miorita »

Quantum Entanglement May Share a Profound Link With Steam Engines
When particles, atoms, or molecules are entangled, knowing something about one tells us something of the other.
The concept of quantum entanglement is less precise than dependent origination, yet scientists must work with extremely small and often negligible quantities or qualities.
If entangled states can also be undone, even in theory, it could suggest that other similarities with thermodynamics might reveal a deeper truth in quantum mechanics.
This also implies that in science, one must provide rigorous proofs for the scientific community. Sometimes the steps are incremental and matters progress linearly, derived from one another, leaving no time for contemplation.
Their latest work, using probabilistic entanglement transformations, which only succeed occasionally but offer greater power, indicates that a reversible framework for entanglement might be feasible.
Is there a parallel to a back-and-forth nature in Buddhism? Possibly!

Extraordinary developments occur in science, and creative minds continually devise new models to describe the universe!

The Bell Theorem, conceived by John Bell, serves as a method to test if quantum entanglement transmits information faster than light.
Specifically, the theorem asserts that no local hidden variable theory can account for all the predictions of quantum mechanics. Summarized, it says that quantum mechanics is very unpredictable.

When Heisenberg introduced the uncertainty principle, stating that one cannot know both the position and the velocity of a particle simultaneously, Einstein did not like the perspective and famously remarked, "God does not play dice!"
Yet, Bell's theorem offers an alternative perspective of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

Now you could explain or find the buddhist associated concepts by detailing the intricacies of Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya. Anyone?
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by humble.student »

Virgo wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 7:54 am The coming complete and utter exodus from physicalism by scientists is inevitable. This inevitability is just beginning now, but it will sweep through the scientific community in the coming decades. It just takes time for people to catch up with ideas. One of the results is that value will once again be placed on spirituality.
Is it really though?

This is hardly a new thing, since many of us here will recall or know about the whole 'quantum mysticism' of the 70s - Fritjof Capra's Tao of Physics, David Bohm and so on, without there being some sort of paradigm shift within contemporary scientific-philosophical debates since then. And, going back to the beginnings of quantum theory, one will find statements of a phenomenological nature by Einstein, Planck and co. if one looks closely enough.

I think Peter's assessment at the top of page 2 is correct, most scientists aren't interested in these issues, although since Kim mentioned James Jeans, I can also mention Jacques Monod (although he was not a physicist).

That said, having a background in science - although I am not a "practicing scientist" - I take an interest in these developments, and to be honest, I find it more fruitful to read what Tarthang Talk had to say in his Time & Space books than what some non-buddhist scientists on Youtube have to say. To each his own.
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Re: An Inevitable Exodus...

Post by Miorita »

Buddhism is a path that leads to a view of reality culminating in inquiry. This is not intuitive, it is laborious.
Science is a method of investigating the world that may culminate and rest in philosophy. Science is highly intuitive.
There will be no exodus; the interests vested in the two domains simply differ.
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