Lung oral transmission

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pmI hope ye guys will not jump at my throat because I raise the following questions... Please bear with me, I’m just trying to understand the situation which is quite opaque to me. I’d be really interested in having clear answers (although I understand the subject is a total mess, at least for me...)
I wish we had clear official answers to all these questions.

I am happy to share my (obviously limited and unstatisfactory) understanding but of course I am a perfect no one. I do not have any privileged access to anything. I have seen no secret documents (if such exist). I have done my best, though, to make sense of the situation, and spent hours talking to those who know more than I do, and have been wiling to share. Still, caveat etc.
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm1-1) Can any SMS instructor give any of the lungs that Rinpoche used to give at the end of his retreat?
They cannot. Rinpoche said that in order to give lungs for practices one must be thoroughly familiar with it, and needs to have practiced it with signs. No idea about the requirements to transmit lungs for tantras etc.
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm1-2) Or is their authorization to instruct limited to SMS exclusively?
The official stance would be that they can instruct on what they are authorised to instruct, but not give lungs. Which is why no single SMS instructor has ever given any lungs for practices practiced in the DC.
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm1-3) Does that imply that an individual who is not necessarily a SMS instructor but who has dedicated some long retreats to a specific practice (Garuda, Mandarava, etc.) until signs occur can give the corresponding lung?
There are no clear instructions here. That would certainly have been Rinpoche's understanding, if you ask me. That said, Nina Robinson, who has spent her life practising Mandarava (and is definitely one the most inspiring DC practitioners I have met), has never ever given lungs for the practice cycle.
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pmMy two cents (please correct me if I’m wrong): To me, in Bön, when you receive a lung (I mean a whole text, not a mantra only), you can transmit it again. However, so far it’s all been done in Tibetan and according to Yongdzin Rinpoche you need to understand what you read (even if what you read is not understandable [even for Tibetans, owing to the speed-of-light reading] by those receiving the lung). So the answer would be yes you can transmit the lung of a whole text (including mantra or not) if you read Tibetan, but to give the mantra you also need the level to activate its capacity (in particular if one intends to transmit the mantra and the activity mantras)). Is that the same in the DC? I mean, let’s take the red Garuda practice from Adzom Drukpa: it’s not merely the mantra(s), there is a small liturgy, stuff to recite (beyond mantra), etc.
I have read a transcript of SMS teachings where ChNN insists that you must understand what you are transmitting AND need to have a really proper grasp on it, experientially; and with mantras, yes, you obviously need to have received signs that make you fully confident you can transmit it. So I think this is the correct reading, although once again, we do not have any document that would put it unambiguously like this. (Which is why you have people "transmitting" Longsal lungs to their friends.)
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm1-4) So if one limits the transmission to reciting a mantra, wouldn’t the lung be considered incomplete?
No official answer, but it stands to reason, if you ask me.
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm1-5) Can Yeshi give any of the lungs? I mean: does he reads Tibetan and understand it sufficiently to give the lungs?
No official answer. Ten years ago he did not speak/read Tibetan. No idea if this has changed. Yeshi has not given any lungs so far, in any case.
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm1-6) If he does not give the lung in Tibetan (because of not understanding it, which, I have been told, is the actual situation), can he do so in english/italian or simply in phonetics? Transmitting something based on phonetics would really sounds weird to me. But would that be OK in the DC?
Rinpoche would have disapproved of it, just as he insisted we sing/recite the liturgies in Tibetan if they were originally written (down) in Tibetan.
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm2-1) The Chinese Khenpo mentioned in this thread is officially authorized to confer the empowerment ritual of the Longsel. Have I understood correctly?
This is my understanding. Rinpoche has written (in the famous letter) that Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo can teach the "many practices" Rinpoche has allowed him teach. We do not know what exactly this means, and it is not clear what is meant here by teaching. But we also know that he has been formally and officially given the Longsal hat by Rinpoche during Rinpoche's last stay in China. It has been read as formal authorisation -- since I have learned of it, I have thought as much as well. But there is no public document that would state it plainly, and the International Gakyil has so far not approached Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo (or has, but we know nothing about it).
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm2-2) Is anyone in the DC (with the exception of this Khenpo) trained in conferring the empowerment ritual of the Longsel? I mean to transmit the Longsel texts, one definitely needs to be able to confer its empowerment ritual and then, for individual texts, to have sufficiently performed the concerned practices and have reached signs. Thus, is anybody in the DC in this position?
I do not know. There is no official position here spelled out, although the broader official position deals with it, probably: Only ChNN is the teacher in the DC, and hence only ChNN can teach/give wangs/DI etc.: https://www.dzogchen.cz/wp-content/uplo ... DC_eng.pdf (This may also conflict with the reading that posits the khenpo as a Longsal lineage holder.)
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm3-1) There is a lot of misunderstanding in the DC and elsewhere about the DI (I am not referring here to the DC or other groups as a whole, only to those who have not understood the principle, have understood it wrongly, or rely simply on a blurry feeling instead of a limpid knowledge, so please don’t think I generalize haphazardly). Most notable deviations are that something magical (like instant, definitive realization) happens at that time, that it liberates by itself, and so forth. In Bön, one is authorized to give DI when one’s master has authorized one to do so. For that, there is a dialogue between the master and his disciple during which the former makes sure the latter has a perfect understanding and is not deviating into his own fantasies about something which is actually crystal-clear and very precisely delimited in terms of its specific definition. Would Yeshi be in this situation?
We know of no particular procedure here. We also know ChNN certainly wanted Yeshi to take over, something which Yeshi refuses to do. Hence there has been no formal recognition of Yeshi as ChNN's spiritual heir (and Yeshi himself rejects that role). When Rinpoche was alive, Yeshi claimed his role was to help people understand what his father taught. He did not see himself as a teacher.

There are people who consider him their teacher (some actually claim it is he, and not ChNN, that they feel closest to). He used to insist he is not a teacher and never will be, and wants no students. This may have changed. No official dicuments here either.

I personally do not get the teacher/instructor distinction. If somebody helps me understand -- experientially -- what ChNN teaches, that would make them my teacher, wouldn't it? But in the DC the difference is crucial. Was when Rinpoche was alive, and still is. Again, the official position is that there is one spiritual master/spiritual teacher of the DC ("The President is the spiritual master of the International Dzogchen Community and the lineage-holder of the of the Dzogchen teachings as specified in Art.1 of this Statute. The incumbent President of the International Dzogchen Community is Chögyal Namkhai Norbu"), and many instructors "by him designated to explain specific methods or aspects of the teachings" (and not to give lungs, wangs or DI). Again see here: https://www.dzogchen.cz/wp-content/uplo ... DC_eng.pdf
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:25 pm3-2) Are his explanations of the DI, if he ever gave one (I have no idea), in harmony (even at the level of the lexicon, which, for all those who have correctly understood the principle of the DI, is crucial) with that of Norbu Rinpoche?
This is a can of worms, and I am sure it will trigger violent arguments. I can only speak about the lexicon: Yeshi significantly differs from Rinpoche in this regard.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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Thanks for your very interesting answers. I guess the end of the tunnel is unfortunately not soon to come...
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:30 pm Thanks for your very interesting answers. I guess the end of the tunnel is unfortunately not soon to come...
I am afraid so, very much.

The fact that the IDG deliberately avoids clarifying things or responding to what Yeshi says (during the last Merigar event he said that while he provides DI for the newcomers, transmissions of secondary practices can be received by watching relevant recordings of ChNN. This sounded very much like an announcement of a brand new policy, and one that would not be uncontroversial. I expected an official statement. There has been none) does not help.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by tinylocusta »

heart wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:02 pm
tinylocusta wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:50 pm It's not just about Longsal, which are marvelous and extremely precious for those who are practicing them, but also Rinpoche's Kama lineage (which is SMS).
SMS is full of Terma. Only Semde is what the Nyingma call Kama.
I completely disagree. There might be some tiny bits of Terma on the Base Level, but even there the root is Man ngag lta ba'i phreng ba which is the only Padmasabhava's text in Nyingma Kama. It is not appropriate to get into details though.

But it's true the Upadesha levels would be related to terma, it's a great pity we didn't have the good fortune to make them happen.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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tinylocusta wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:23 pm
heart wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:02 pm
tinylocusta wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:50 pm It's not just about Longsal, which are marvelous and extremely precious for those who are practicing them, but also Rinpoche's Kama lineage (which is SMS).
SMS is full of Terma. Only Semde is what the Nyingma call Kama.
I completely disagree. There might be some tiny bits of Terma on the Base Level, but even there the root is Man ngag lta ba'i phreng ba which is the only Padmasabhava's text in Nyingma Kama. It is not appropriate to get into details though.

But it's true the Upadesha levels would be related to terma, it's a great pity we didn't have the good fortune to make them happen.
It is not a question of opinion, the word Kama has a specific meaning.

"Nyingma Kama (rnying ma bka’ ma) literally means the Oral Lineage of the Ancient Ones. The term Kama in general refers to the Buddhist teachings that came through a long lineage from one master to another. Nyingma Kama specifically is a collection of teachings from the three inner tantras (nang brgyud sde gsum) that are considered to have been brought to Tibet from India and translated into Tibetan during the early translation period (8th and 9th centuries)."'

https://treasuryoflives.org/bo/foundations/view/8
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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heart wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 8:16 am
tinylocusta wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:23 pm
heart wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:02 pm

SMS is full of Terma. Only Semde is what the Nyingma call Kama.
I completely disagree. There might be some tiny bits of Terma on the Base Level, but even there the root is Man ngag lta ba'i phreng ba which is the only Padmasabhava's text in Nyingma Kama. It is not appropriate to get into details though.

But it's true the Upadesha levels would be related to terma, it's a great pity we didn't have the good fortune to make them happen.
It is not a question of opinion, the word Kama has a specific meaning.

"Nyingma Kama (rnying ma bka’ ma) literally means the Oral Lineage of the Ancient Ones. The term Kama in general refers to the Buddhist teachings that came through a long lineage from one master to another. Nyingma Kama specifically is a collection of teachings from the three inner tantras (nang brgyud sde gsum) that are considered to have been brought to Tibet from India and translated into Tibetan during the early translation period (8th and 9th centuries)."'

https://treasuryoflives.org/bo/foundations/view/8
Yes, of course. SMS, at least the Semde and Longe levels, are based on Kama.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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tinylocusta wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:39 pm
heart wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 8:16 am
tinylocusta wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:23 pm

I completely disagree. There might be some tiny bits of Terma on the Base Level, but even there the root is Man ngag lta ba'i phreng ba which is the only Padmasabhava's text in Nyingma Kama. It is not appropriate to get into details though.

But it's true the Upadesha levels would be related to terma, it's a great pity we didn't have the good fortune to make them happen.
It is not a question of opinion, the word Kama has a specific meaning.

"Nyingma Kama (rnying ma bka’ ma) literally means the Oral Lineage of the Ancient Ones. The term Kama in general refers to the Buddhist teachings that came through a long lineage from one master to another. Nyingma Kama specifically is a collection of teachings from the three inner tantras (nang brgyud sde gsum) that are considered to have been brought to Tibet from India and translated into Tibetan during the early translation period (8th and 9th centuries)."'

https://treasuryoflives.org/bo/foundations/view/8
Yes, of course. SMS, at least the Semde and Longe levels, are based on Kama.
Only Semde, to the best of my knowledge.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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heart wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:02 pm
tinylocusta wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:39 pm
heart wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 8:16 am

It is not a question of opinion, the word Kama has a specific meaning.

"Nyingma Kama (rnying ma bka’ ma) literally means the Oral Lineage of the Ancient Ones. The term Kama in general refers to the Buddhist teachings that came through a long lineage from one master to another. Nyingma Kama specifically is a collection of teachings from the three inner tantras (nang brgyud sde gsum) that are considered to have been brought to Tibet from India and translated into Tibetan during the early translation period (8th and 9th centuries)."'

https://treasuryoflives.org/bo/foundations/view/8
Yes, of course. SMS, at least the Semde and Longe levels, are based on Kama.
Only Semde, to the best of my knowledge.
Only Semde and Longde, to the best of my knowledge :)

But this is completely beside the point. My point is, if Lama Tsultrim received Rinpoche's permission to give lungs for specific practices[1] 30 years ago, there has been nothing to stop anyone from following her footsteps, doing the practice the correct way, accumulating the required accumulations, getting the signs of practice and so on.

[1] http://melong.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... y-1990.pdf - p. 4
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:30 pm Thanks for your very interesting answers. I guess the end of the tunnel is unfortunately not soon to come...
A lung-related update:

"For those newcomers who have Yeshi Namkhai's transmission and who are seeking to deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, the IG suggests that Gars and Lings follow Yeshi Namkhai's advice given during his retreat in May 2023. For those people, the recordings of Rinpoche's teachings - available through the Archives at Merigar West, and some through Rinpoche Retreat Replay on the Webcast channel - are an invaluable resource. Gars and Lings are encouraged to make use of these retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors. Newcomers and longtime practitioners can participate by watching video recordings of Rinpoche’s teachings in the morning, followed in the afternoon by practicing together with an SMS instructor who leads the practices that Rinpoche gave in the recorded retreat."
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:31 pm
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:30 pm Thanks for your very interesting answers. I guess the end of the tunnel is unfortunately not soon to come...
A lung-related update:

"For those newcomers who have Yeshi Namkhai's transmission and who are seeking to deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, the IG suggests that Gars and Lings follow Yeshi Namkhai's advice given during his retreat in May 2023. For those people, the recordings of Rinpoche's teachings - available through the Archives at Merigar West, and some through Rinpoche Retreat Replay on the Webcast channel - are an invaluable resource. Gars and Lings are encouraged to make use of these retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors. Newcomers and longtime practitioners can participate by watching video recordings of Rinpoche’s teachings in the morning, followed in the afternoon by practicing together with an SMS instructor who leads the practices that Rinpoche gave in the recorded retreat."
Basically, lungs are not important. I don't think Rinpoche would agree.
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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heart wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:38 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:31 pm
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:30 pm Thanks for your very interesting answers. I guess the end of the tunnel is unfortunately not soon to come...
A lung-related update:

"For those newcomers who have Yeshi Namkhai's transmission and who are seeking to deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, the IG suggests that Gars and Lings follow Yeshi Namkhai's advice given during his retreat in May 2023. For those people, the recordings of Rinpoche's teachings - available through the Archives at Merigar West, and some through Rinpoche Retreat Replay on the Webcast channel - are an invaluable resource. Gars and Lings are encouraged to make use of these retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors. Newcomers and longtime practitioners can participate by watching video recordings of Rinpoche’s teachings in the morning, followed in the afternoon by practicing together with an SMS instructor who leads the practices that Rinpoche gave in the recorded retreat."
Basically, lungs are not important. I don't think Rinpoche would agree.
One could also ask how can the newcomer who has Yeshi Namkhai's transmission "deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu." Yeshi does not transmit the latter. "Deepen" is a "Gain" in disguise here.

If lungs are bracketed, and tri can be obtained from "retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors," they could just say as much without all the stealth. Btw, the beginning of the email clarifies that Mandarava courses are available to all who have received transmission from ChNN or Yeshi Namkhai. So it is as if transmission contained all the lungs ChNN ever gave. I also wonder what is meant by authorisation here -- one may read it as contradicting the (in)famous letter.

Oh well.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:29 pm
heart wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:38 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:31 pm

A lung-related update:

"For those newcomers who have Yeshi Namkhai's transmission and who are seeking to deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, the IG suggests that Gars and Lings follow Yeshi Namkhai's advice given during his retreat in May 2023. For those people, the recordings of Rinpoche's teachings - available through the Archives at Merigar West, and some through Rinpoche Retreat Replay on the Webcast channel - are an invaluable resource. Gars and Lings are encouraged to make use of these retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors. Newcomers and longtime practitioners can participate by watching video recordings of Rinpoche’s teachings in the morning, followed in the afternoon by practicing together with an SMS instructor who leads the practices that Rinpoche gave in the recorded retreat."
Basically, lungs are not important. I don't think Rinpoche would agree.
One could also ask how can the newcomer who has Yeshi Namkhai's transmission "deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu." Yeshi does not transmit the latter. "Deepen" is a "Gain" in disguise here.

If lungs are bracketed, and tri can be obtained from "retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors," they could just say as much without all the stealth. Btw, the beginning of the email clarifies that Mandarava courses are available to all who have received transmission from ChNN or Yeshi Namkhai. So it is as if transmission contained all the lungs ChNN ever gave. I also wonder what is meant by authorisation here -- one may read it as contradicting the (in)famous letter.

Oh well.
So coz yeshe didnt teach secondary practices in his last retrear you assume he never will?
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:19 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:29 pm
heart wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:38 pm

Basically, lungs are not important. I don't think Rinpoche would agree.
One could also ask how can the newcomer who has Yeshi Namkhai's transmission "deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu." Yeshi does not transmit the latter. "Deepen" is a "Gain" in disguise here.

If lungs are bracketed, and tri can be obtained from "retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors," they could just say as much without all the stealth. Btw, the beginning of the email clarifies that Mandarava courses are available to all who have received transmission from ChNN or Yeshi Namkhai. So it is as if transmission contained all the lungs ChNN ever gave. I also wonder what is meant by authorisation here -- one may read it as contradicting the (in)famous letter.

Oh well.
So coz yeshe didnt teach secondary practices in his last retrear you assume he never will?
Yeshi has never given any lungs so far, and he has more than once dismissed lungs and lung transmissions as outdated cultural artifacts. I could make a similar move, and rhetorically ask:

So even though he has never given any, and seems to consider them a useless ornament, you are assuming he will?

Time will tell.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:52 am
...he has more than once dismissed lungs and lung transmissions as outdated cultural artifacts...

...seems to consider them a useless ornament...
This is completely false. You could probably say that Yeshi considers Dzogchen far superior than Vajrayana and something that the Dzogchen Community needs in spite of the fact of being very much focused on the so-called secondary practices. But to make such statements about person who strongly discourages people from criticizing even other religions is not only untrue but also illogical.

I could very well quote a story that clearly shows that but I feel the line has been crossed too many times here and being part of it makes no sense.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by tinylocusta »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:31 pm
mutsuk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:30 pm Thanks for your very interesting answers. I guess the end of the tunnel is unfortunately not soon to come...
A lung-related update:

"For those newcomers who have Yeshi Namkhai's transmission and who are seeking to deepen their understanding and knowledge of secondary practices transmitted by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, the IG suggests that Gars and Lings follow Yeshi Namkhai's advice given during his retreat in May 2023. For those people, the recordings of Rinpoche's teachings - available through the Archives at Merigar West, and some through Rinpoche Retreat Replay on the Webcast channel - are an invaluable resource. Gars and Lings are encouraged to make use of these retreat recordings in conjunction with the guidance and clarifications given by authorized SMS instructors. Newcomers and longtime practitioners can participate by watching video recordings of Rinpoche’s teachings in the morning, followed in the afternoon by practicing together with an SMS instructor who leads the practices that Rinpoche gave in the recorded retreat."
So given the responsibility, that's a perfect occasion for SMS teachers to gather the missing accumulations.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

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tinylocusta wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:59 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:52 am
...he has more than once dismissed lungs and lung transmissions as outdated cultural artifacts...

...seems to consider them a useless ornament...
This is completely false. You could probably say that Yeshi considers Dzogchen far superior than Vajrayana and something that the Dzogchen Community needs in spite of the fact of being very much focused on the so-called secondary practices. But to make such statements about person who strongly discourages people from criticizing even other religions is not only untrue but also illogical.

I could very well quote a story that clearly shows that but I feel the line has been crossed too many times here and being part of it makes no sense.
Sorry, but no, it is not completely false. I have heard Yeshi say that lungs are are an embellishment or an ornament, and one which is utterly unnecessary once the transmission is given. Those who attended the instructor meetings heard far more explicit things. He may have changed his views, of course, as many things he says now are very different indeed. But the letter suggests that lungs are still deemed an entirely optional feature now -- just as he said they are in 2014.

Anyway, I will bow out now, I think.

PS. I am not trying to judge Yeshi here. I do not consider him my teacher, and never have, and probably never will, but as far as I am concerned, he is entitled to his views, whether I share them or not, and certainly has his reasons to hold them. His father never feared controversy, and to be honest I admired him greatly for this. I think it has always been obvious that Yeshi will not be much less controversial, even if the details will be very different. He is clearly his own man, and I think I am rather happy to know it, even if I do not share some of his ideas, or find his approach baffling. I am also quite happy his relationship with the DC seems to have improved a lot. I hope that in time he will be officially recognised as a DC teacher, since many people seem to need it. I may not be a part of the flock, but I will be happy to know others are.
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by jet.urgyen »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:21 pm
Anyway, I will bow out now, I think.

PS. I am not trying to judge Yeshi here. I do not consider him my teacher, and never have, and probably never will, but as far as I am concerned, he is entitled to his views, whether I share them or not, and certainly has his reasons to hold them. His father never feared controversy, and to be honest I admired him greatly for this. I think it has always been obvious that Yeshi will not be much less controversial, even if the details will be very different. He is clearly his own man, and I think I am rather happy to know it, even if I do not share some of his ideas, or find his approach baffling. I am also quite happy his relationship with the DC seems to have improved a lot. I hope that in time he will be officially recognised as a DC teacher, since many people seem to need it. I may not be a part of the flock, but I will be happy to know others are.
Will be anyone's teacher if you actually receive transmission from him, so why you worry? Why you care?
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

jet.urgyen wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:27 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:21 pm
Anyway, I will bow out now, I think.

PS. I am not trying to judge Yeshi here. I do not consider him my teacher, and never have, and probably never will, but as far as I am concerned, he is entitled to his views, whether I share them or not, and certainly has his reasons to hold them. His father never feared controversy, and to be honest I admired him greatly for this. I think it has always been obvious that Yeshi will not be much less controversial, even if the details will be very different. He is clearly his own man, and I think I am rather happy to know it, even if I do not share some of his ideas, or find his approach baffling. I am also quite happy his relationship with the DC seems to have improved a lot. I hope that in time he will be officially recognised as a DC teacher, since many people seem to need it. I may not be a part of the flock, but I will be happy to know others are.
Will be anyone's teacher if you actually receive transmission from him, so why you worry? Why you care?
?

I thought it is patently obvious that one checks a potential teacher as the scriptures teach us to, and follows the pushes and pulls if there are any: if the gut feeling says, do meet that one, I try to do so as long as the rest seems OK. I do not know about you, but I do not meet every teacher I hear of, and try to receive transmission from them, just because there is a chance it might click.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

jet.urgyen wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:27 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:21 pm
Anyway, I will bow out now, I think.

PS. I am not trying to judge Yeshi here. I do not consider him my teacher, and never have, and probably never will, but as far as I am concerned, he is entitled to his views, whether I share them or not, and certainly has his reasons to hold them. His father never feared controversy, and to be honest I admired him greatly for this. I think it has always been obvious that Yeshi will not be much less controversial, even if the details will be very different. He is clearly his own man, and I think I am rather happy to know it, even if I do not share some of his ideas, or find his approach baffling. I am also quite happy his relationship with the DC seems to have improved a lot. I hope that in time he will be officially recognised as a DC teacher, since many people seem to need it. I may not be a part of the flock, but I will be happy to know others are.
Will be anyone's teacher if you actually receive transmission from him, so why you worry? Why you care?
He probably cares because he was/is a DC member and cares about the future of it, and of ChNNs legacy. I feel similarly. It would be weird for a student of Rinpoches to -not- care about goings on in the DC.

BTW, if people want to continue this discussion I need to move it to the DC discussion thread, if you want to participate and want access let me know.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
tinylocusta
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Re: Lung oral transmission

Post by tinylocusta »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:21 pm I have heard Yeshi say that lungs are are an embellishment or an ornament, and one which is utterly unnecessary once the transmission is given.
Ah I see now, it looks like a misunderstanding on my part. Because the root issue here is a the perennial discussion on the relationship between Vajrayana and Dzogchen. So these are two different issues: (1) if a lung for a Vajrayana practice is necessary to achieve realization on the path of Dzogchen, (2) if a lung is required for practicing Vajrayana.

As of (2), I don't believe anything has any doubts that the usual triad of wang, lung and tri is necessary in spite of slight variations how various traditions and individual master approach these matters. As of (1), this is a completely different thing, and I understand people can have very different views on that, depending on what they read in the tantras and commentaries, what their masters said and so on, but there were so many discussions here on this topic here that it's useless to do it again.
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