Pointing out instructions

[bowsamic]

It helps talking to sober-minded people who have been in the game for a longer time. Most problematic teachers who visit/reside here are fairly well-known as problematic teachers (though their own students will of course see it differently). Also, "dedicating fully" is probably not a matter of decision, nor something that happens instantly. Patience is of immense value here. But of course I agree about the dangers. There are predators of various sorts around -- certainly a small minority, but just as certainly, they are there.

The ancient advice to go out and meet as many teachers in person (and online too, why not) as possible still strikes me as as sane as one can get here. No great commitment at that stage, of course.

I agree with the advice. I guess, it is difficult, since I am a lazy and depressed person, and not at all sociable. That is why in the past I have focussed on Pure Land, after I left my old Zen teacher because I did not trust him, and he gave me advice that left me permanently physically injured.

Than, maybe you should and do yourself and others a favor, and just look for something else. Saves your time, saves others time, and does not cause digpa, by ranting about other peoples Lamas.

No Guru, no Dzogchen

I guess I agree, but this is quite a rude response. I don't think I've said anything that warrants this. Please try and be at least somewhat patient with me.

Also I don't think I'm ranting about anyone. I respect Lama Lena greatly and I enjoy her teachings. I distrust her, of course, but I distrust everyone, including myself.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Than, maybe you should and do yourself and others a favor, and just look for something else. Saves your time, saves others time, and does not cause digpa, by ranting about other peoples Lamas.

No Guru, no Dzogchen

I guess I agree, but this is quite a rude response. I don't think I've said anything that warrants this. Please try and be at least somewhat patient with me.

This is a special feature of Western Buddhists who post online. Those who stay offline will not say such a thing right-in-your-face as easily (though they carry their own crosses, of course. As we all do).

[Dawa Ösel]

It helps talking to sober-minded people who have been in the game for a longer time. Most problematic teachers who visit/reside here are fairly well-known as problematic teachers (though their own students will of course see it differently). Also, "dedicating fully" is probably not a matter of decision, nor something that happens instantly. Patience is of immense value here. But of course I agree about the dangers. There are predators of various sorts around -- certainly a small minority, but just as certainly, they are there.

The ancient advice to go out and meet as many teachers in person (and online too, why not) as possible still strikes me as as sane as one can get here. No great commitment at that stage, of course.

I agree with the advice. I guess, it is difficult, since I am a lazy and depressed person, and not at all sociable. That is why in the past I have focussed on Pure Land, after I left my old Zen teacher because I did not trust him, and he gave me advice that left me permanently physically injured.

Than, maybe you should and do yourself and others a favor, and just look for something else. Saves your time, saves others time, and does not cause digpa, by ranting about other peoples Lamas.

No Guru, no Dzogchen

I guess I agree, but this is quite a rude response. I don't think I've said anything that warrants this. Please try and be at least somewhat patient with me.

Also I don't think I'm ranting about anyone. I respect Lama Lena greatly and I enjoy her teachings. I distrust her, of course, but I distrust everyone, including myself.

I am sorry if that came rude to you.
Maybe noone did tell you, that speaking Bad about (other ppls) Gurus should be avoided, you never know whos enlightened..Trust in the Guru is an essential Part of Vajrayana and Dzogchen/Mahamudra.
If you can not overcome your scepticicm it won't work.

Also i have dug out the quote you might have meant

[Nyondo] In lieu of having direct access to a teacher that teaches practices aiming toward Dzogchen, is there anything that a practitioner can do to guide themselves?

[Lama Lena] Sutrayana. Read and intellectually learn. But even for the practice of tantra you need an initiations, you need teachings and explanations. You need teachers.
And you will fool yourself without such.
There are ways you can find a teacher, teachers, spiritual friends, those who can assist you avoiding fooling yourself.
When you are clinging on to the last cliff for dear life, somebody’s got to kick your fingers loose. Because no one in their right mind would let go. And if you’re in your run mind it won’t work.
What was it Trungpa said: “I have good news and bad news for you. The bad news is that we have fallen from a cliff. The good news is that there’s no bottom to hit”.

That free-fall is Dzogchen. Where the Three Jewels are one; Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya. The innately vital awaken aware infinite vast expanse, which sparkles with playfulness of creativity.

Come here, get off the text, and off the text onto the table. There you go. [Lama Lena talking to the cat] Next question.

She doesn't say one can practice Sutrayana without a teacher and become enlightened.

Anyway this discussion will lead to nowhere, so i am Out

cheers

[bowsamic]

Than, maybe you should and do yourself and others a favor, and just look for something else. Saves your time, saves others time, and does not cause digpa, by ranting about other peoples Lamas.

No Guru, no Dzogchen

I guess I agree, but this is quite a rude response. I don't think I've said anything that warrants this. Please try and be at least somewhat patient with me.

This is a special feature of Western Buddhists who post online. Those who stay offline will not say such a thing right-in-your-face as easily (though they carry their own crosses, of course. As we all do).

Perhaps, though I've actually noticed some quite disturbing "open Dharma combat" in my old Zen sangha. People challenging each other in a way that felt scary and aggressive, not backing down and continuously asking, bc they didn't want to fold and look weak. I've even seen the leader of our sangha, our head teacher, shout at people when frustrated. My personal teacher even told me multiple stories about egotistic practitioners who got into such arguments and said such things in person in the sangha.

So, I think it's a western Buddhist thing, not just an online thing. Or perhaps my sangha was really dysfunctional, I don't really know for sure. But, from what I've heard, every sangha has drama. There is a Rinzai Zen practitioner on YouTube called Shozan Jack Haubner (YT channel
Zen Confidential) and he has some absolute crackers to tell about what students will do to sound like they "get it", which involves mocking and hazing other students.

Personally, I think there could be a reason for it to be bad in western buddhism, and that's that likely most of the people here who feel the need to look for Buddhism have some kind of mental illness. I actually think that spiritual bypassing is an absolute epidemic in the west, that is, trying to ignore your life problems by instead turning to spiritual pursuits because you are too scared to face the pain in your own mundane life

I am sorry if that came rude to you.
Maybe noone did tell you, that speaking Bad about (other ppls) Gurus should be avoided, you never know whos enlightened..Trust in the Guru is an essential Part of Vajrayana and Dzogchen/Mahamudra.
If you can not overcome your scepticicm it won't work.

Who have I spoken bad about?

Also i have dug out the quote you might have meant

That isn't the quote I meant

[conebeckham]

Pointing Out instructions, no matter in what tradition, require a great degree of faith in the teacher who is bestowing them. Aside from all the opinions regarding on-line, real time, meat-space, recordings and transcripts and books........a degree of faith and trust in the teacher is essential to receiving the gist of things. The secret to getting Pointing Out Instructions is to be in a state of concentration and non-distraction, and to have faith, and even better, devotion, to the guru. Those are the key ingredients. I should also say that they really cannot be "faked."

I've experienced transmissions via Streaming, via large empowerments with thousands of people and video screens, and in smaller groups, and also one-to-one. I've also watched videos purporting to be " Direct Introduction," and read transcripts......

I've had a variety of experiences in all those "modalities," but I think the key factors I outlined above, combined with the more intimate and live, "embodied" modalities, are still the most complete and satisfactory circumstances to actually have an experience regarding what it "pointed out."

Being in a one-on-one meeting in private with a teacher who you don't place your trust in will not work. It's your own mental state, as well as the mental state of the guru, which are the key factors. But I personally do not find recordings or transcripts/books to be efficacious at all, as primary means. But they have their place, for experienced students who have had a taste.

[bowsamic]

Pointing Out instructions, no matter in what tradition, require a great degree of faith in the teacher who is bestowing them. Aside from all the opinions regarding on-line, real time, meat-space, recordings and transcripts and books........a degree of faith and trust in the teacher is essential to receiving the gist of things. The secret to getting Pointing Out Instructions is to be in a state of concentration and non-distraction, and to have faith, and even better, devotion, to the guru. Those are the key ingredients. I should also say that they really cannot be "faked."

I've experienced transmissions via Streaming, via large empowerments with thousands of people and video screens, and in smaller groups, and also one-to-one. I've also watched videos purporting to be " Direct Introduction," and read transcripts......

I've had a variety of experiences in all those "modalities," but I think the key factors I outlined above, combined with the more intimate and live, "embodied" modalities, are still the most complete and satisfactory circumstances to actually have an experience regarding what it "pointed out."

Being in a one-on-one meeting in private with a teacher who you don't place your trust in will not work. It's your own mental state, as well as the mental state of the guru, which are the key factors. But I personally do not find recordings or transcripts/books to be efficacious at all, as primary means. But they have their place, for experienced students who have had a taste.

I don't really understand how you can bring yourself to trust a teacher. How do you do it?

[Josef]

Pointing Out instructions, no matter in what tradition, require a great degree of faith in the teacher who is bestowing them. Aside from all the opinions regarding on-line, real time, meat-space, recordings and transcripts and books........a degree of faith and trust in the teacher is essential to receiving the gist of things. The secret to getting Pointing Out Instructions is to be in a state of concentration and non-distraction, and to have faith, and even better, devotion, to the guru. Those are the key ingredients. I should also say that they really cannot be "faked."

I've experienced transmissions via Streaming, via large empowerments with thousands of people and video screens, and in smaller groups, and also one-to-one. I've also watched videos purporting to be " Direct Introduction," and read transcripts......

I've had a variety of experiences in all those "modalities," but I think the key factors I outlined above, combined with the more intimate and live, "embodied" modalities, are still the most complete and satisfactory circumstances to actually have an experience regarding what it "pointed out."

Being in a one-on-one meeting in private with a teacher who you don't place your trust in will not work. It's your own mental state, as well as the mental state of the guru, which are the key factors. But I personally do not find recordings or transcripts/books to be efficacious at all, as primary means. But they have their place, for experienced students who have had a taste.

I don't really understand how you can bring yourself to trust a teacher. How do you do it?

It is established through your own practice. When you receive the upadesa instructions (in a proper way) and apply them diligently you will gain confidence in your own path. Through that confidence trust and confidence in your teacher(s) continues to expand. This inevitably leads to more and more confidence and devotion to your own practice and teachers.

[pemachophel]

I'm not sure you can answer "how" one has faith in a Teacher. I think it's primarily a function of past-life karma. Since you feel incapable of having faith in a real-life Teacher (at least for now), perhaps you should focus on accumulating merit through the many means of the sutrayana which do not require a Teacher-student relationship.

Without a Teacher-student relationship there is, categorically no Dzogchen. Dzogchen cannot be practiced via books and recordings alone. As Cone said, those means are meant for those who already have had pointing out from a live Teacher and other Dzogchen empowerments, lungs, and teachings. Then those methods can deepen and extend those teachings received in the flesh.

I know this may seem arbitrary and doctrinaire. It becomes understandable through personal experience as one makes progress on the path and dissolves one's naive assumptions about the nature of reality.

If one wants absolutely nothing in life other than realization and one believes that Dzogchen is the teaching capable of bringing that realization in the shortest period of time, then one will do anything to obtain those teachings, including life-and-death faith in a real-life Teacher.

But then that's just my two cents. What do I know?

[Josef]

I'm not sure you can answer "how" one has faith in a Teacher. I think it's primarily a function of past-life karma. Since you feel incapable of having faith in a real-life Teacher (at least for now), perhaps you should focus on accumulating merit through the many means of the sutrayana which do not require a Teacher-student relationship.

Without a Teacher-student relationship there is, categorically no Dzogchen. Dzogchen cannot be practiced via books and recordings alone. As Cone said, those means are meant for those who already have had pointing out from a live Teacher and other Dzogchen empowerments, lungs, and teachings. Then those methods can deepen and extend those teachings received in the flesh.

I know this may seem arbitrary and doctrinaire. It becomes understandable through personal experience as one makes progress on the path and dissolves one's naive assumptions about the nature of reality.

If one wants absolutely nothing in life other than realization and one believes that Dzogchen is the teaching capable of bringing that realization in the shortest period of time, then one will do anything to obtain those teachings, including life-and-death faith in a real-life Teacher.

But then that's just my two cents. What do I know?

Well said.

[bowsamic]

I'm not sure you can answer "how" one has faith in a Teacher. I think it's primarily a function of past-life karma. Since you feel incapable of having faith in a real-life Teacher (at least for now), perhaps you should focus on accumulating merit through the many means of the sutrayana which do not require a Teacher-student relationship.

Without a Teacher-student relationship there is, categorically no Dzogchen. Dzogchen cannot be practiced via books and recordings alone. As Cone said, those means are meant for those who already have had pointing out from a live Teacher and other Dzogchen empowerments, lungs, and teachings. Then those methods can deepen and extend those teachings received in the flesh.

I know this may seem arbitrary and doctrinaire. It becomes understandable through personal experience as one makes progress on the path and dissolves one's naive assumptions about the nature of reality.

If one wants absolutely nothing in life other than realization and one believes that Dzogchen is the teaching capable of bringing that realization in the shortest period of time, then one will do anything to obtain those teachings, including life-and-death faith in a real-life Teacher.

But then that's just my two cents. What do I know?

Okay, I will look elsewhere then

[conebeckham]

I'm not sure you can answer "how" one has faith in a Teacher. I think it's primarily a function of past-life karma. Since you feel incapable of having faith in a real-life Teacher (at least for now), perhaps you should focus on accumulating merit through the many means of the sutrayana which do not require a Teacher-student relationship.

Without a Teacher-student relationship there is, categorically no Dzogchen. Dzogchen cannot be practiced via books and recordings alone. As Cone said, those means are meant for those who already have had pointing out from a live Teacher and other Dzogchen empowerments, lungs, and teachings. Then those methods can deepen and extend those teachings received in the flesh.

I know this may seem arbitrary and doctrinaire. It becomes understandable through personal experience as one makes progress on the path and dissolves one's naive assumptions about the nature of reality.

If one wants absolutely nothing in life other than realization and one believes that Dzogchen is the teaching capable of bringing that realization in the shortest period of time, then one will do anything to obtain those teachings, including life-and-death faith in a real-life Teacher.

But then that's just my two cents. What do I know?

Oh, you know!

Lol

A couple other points: the only way to examine a teacher is to spend time with that teacher, and I recognize that is often difficult these days. The point about gathering the accumulations is apt—and it can take the form of practicing various methods—deity yoga, ngondro, mind training, as well as study.

From my POV, it’s not so much that one chooses a root guru, the guru who successfully gets through to you— and that usually does not happen at an initial meeting. Take some teachings, and put them into practice—the time will come when the Pointing Out will take root.

[heart]

Pointing Out instructions, no matter in what tradition, require a great degree of faith in the teacher who is bestowing them. Aside from all the opinions regarding on-line, real time, meat-space, recordings and transcripts and books........a degree of faith and trust in the teacher is essential to receiving the gist of things. The secret to getting Pointing Out Instructions is to be in a state of concentration and non-distraction, and to have faith, and even better, devotion, to the guru. Those are the key ingredients. I should also say that they really cannot be "faked."

I've experienced transmissions via Streaming, via large empowerments with thousands of people and video screens, and in smaller groups, and also one-to-one. I've also watched videos purporting to be " Direct Introduction," and read transcripts......

I've had a variety of experiences in all those "modalities," but I think the key factors I outlined above, combined with the more intimate and live, "embodied" modalities, are still the most complete and satisfactory circumstances to actually have an experience regarding what it "pointed out."

Being in a one-on-one meeting in private with a teacher who you don't place your trust in will not work. It's your own mental state, as well as the mental state of the guru, which are the key factors. But I personally do not find recordings or transcripts/books to be efficacious at all, as primary means. But they have their place, for experienced students who have had a taste.

I don't really understand how you can bring yourself to trust a teacher. How do you do it?

It's not something easy for most of us. They teach, you listen. You ask questions, they answer. You watch them eat, talk to others, make jokes or maybe go to the cinema with them. You spend time with them. Then the teaching start making sense and you will find genuine trust for the teaching and later through the way the Guru actually express that teaching through his way of acting you will find trust in the Guru. It's good to let it take some time. 12 years according to some Tantras. A good connection will last for many lives, according to the teaching, so no need to rush it.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I have examined a couple teachers professional life (obviously without doing anything invasive etc.), as well as noticing how they are with people every chance I get.

How they are with people is a big deal to me. For instance when a teacher legitimately puts most of their time towards the Dharma and/or helping others, it is indicative of someone with conviction, if nothing else.

If I see them deal skillfully with situations and people in a way I could not, it’s another sign, and so on.

Very conventional stuff, but credentials don’t mean so much without it. I’ve found this stuff to be enough to at least open the door to trust when the teacher already has qualities that inspire.

[climb-up]

For both of my main teachers I spent a lot of time learning about them, and searching for controversies or negativity. I also did research into what the guru diciple relationship involves in-general/technically, and the specific expectations of my lamas from their students. This is all extremely imnportant, and the prrcess of investigation built a lot of faith in them as well.

[jet.urgyen]

Pointing Out instructions, no matter in what tradition, require a great degree of faith in the teacher who is bestowing them. Aside from all the opinions regarding on-line, real time, meat-space, recordings and transcripts and books........a degree of faith and trust in the teacher is essential to receiving the gist of things. The secret to getting Pointing Out Instructions is to be in a state of concentration and non-distraction, and to have faith, and even better, devotion, to the guru. Those are the key ingredients. I should also say that they really cannot be "faked."

I've experienced transmissions via Streaming, via large empowerments with thousands of people and video screens, and in smaller groups, and also one-to-one. I've also watched videos purporting to be " Direct Introduction," and read transcripts......

I've had a variety of experiences in all those "modalities," but I think the key factors I outlined above, combined with the more intimate and live, "embodied" modalities, are still the most complete and satisfactory circumstances to actually have an experience regarding what it "pointed out."

Being in a one-on-one meeting in private with a teacher who you don't place your trust in will not work. It's your own mental state, as well as the mental state of the guru, which are the key factors. But I personally do not find recordings or transcripts/books to be efficacious at all, as primary means. But they have their place, for experienced students who have had a taste.

I don't really understand how you can bring yourself to trust a teacher. How do you do it?

there can be many factors. karmic connection the most common, seconded by examination.

[yagmort]

I have examined a couple teachers professional life (obviously without doing anything invasive etc.), as well as noticing how they are with people every chance I get.

How they are with people is a big deal to me. For instance when a teacher legitimately puts most of their time towards the Dharma and/or helping others, it is indicative of someone with conviction, if nothing else.

If I see them deal skillfully with situations and people in a way I could not, it’s another sign, and so on.

Very conventional stuff, but credentials don’t mean so much without it. I’ve found this stuff to be enough to at least open the door to trust when the teacher already has qualities that inspire.

second that.

[tingdzin]

I don't really understand how you can bring yourself to trust a teacher. How do you do it?

As other posters have said, trust can be developed by examination of a teacher's qualities and behavior. A good part of finding faith is getting over oneself. Both are essential.

[bowsamic]

I don't really understand how you can bring yourself to trust a teacher. How do you do it?

As other posters have said, trust can be developed by examination of a teacher's qualities and behavior. A good part of finding faith is getting over oneself. Both are essential.

There's no way I'm going to be able to get over myself without having a teacher to (figuratively) beat the crap out of me

[tingdzin]

Good point, but one has to make a good-faith start before the pro takes over, or he / she won't be interested in teaching you.

[bowsamic]

Good point, but one has to make a good-faith start before the pro takes over, or he / she won't be interested in teaching you.

Well I guess that's the problem. I am a very sceptical and not at all trusting person. As I always say, I don't even trust myself, let alone another person. I don't trust my wife, or my parents, or anyone else. Trusting a Buddhist teacher is not gonna happen