How flatworms acquire consciousness?

[Miorita]

But I admit I cheated. I drew closer to seeing an image of a worm. Based on my copying on the work of others, scientists, I can affirm that if you try to separate 2 entities in one body, that is to excise a demon out of it, that would be a different story.
To operate in the mindstream is and I say hesitantly, the object of meditative practices, and part of daily living. We continuously edit our mindstreams. We make aspirations prayers so that we in turn prove disciples of our teachers, ultimately Buddha. A disciple is one in training.
It’s also a lesson for me that I did not study enough the worms to know that they have eyes in a head. Others have brought this handy for me in the argument. I’m grateful they took the time to give an accurate detail of a worm. Perhaps I will keep a copy for myself to remember to be compassionate to supposedly 1 or 2 neuron being. It moved and it was alive.
Quo vadis worm?

[Vajrasambhava]

If you cut the worm lengthwise, the worm is killed and it cannot regenarate.
2 halves of the brain need each other in order to work. If you destroy the master box, that's it! It won't grow another one on a whim.

It's not a common worm, is a specific flatworm who can be divided vertically and in any other way, it has been divided in 279 different pieces, any of them has successfully formed a whole indipendent body

[Vajrasambhava]

So, in case we cut a worm, which segment will be occupied by a new gandharva and which segment will hold the same gandharva held when the worm was uncut? That's my original question

Neither, because there’s nothing that is a continuous gandharva (or any other type of being).
They both arise as new beings.
There never was a continuous gandharva, even before the worm was cut.

I understand your question. But the answer is eluding you because you are still thinking of beings as continuous entities.

Each moment of the arising of a being is actually just a very close reproduction of the previous moment of arising, caused by the previous moment of arising. The appearance of a continuous being occurs because moment to moment, the causes and conditions are nearly identical (which is, for example, why you don’t see yourself aging in real time but as an adult you can easily see that you are no longer a child).

It’s like how images in a motion picture of animated cartoon appear to have continuous movement even though they are really a series of separate, still images.

The difference between images on movie film and sentient beings is that there is no unchanging moment in time that defines a being, the way that there are unchanging frames on a strip of movie film.

This is why consciousnesses is more like the flow of a river. You can’t say where one section of a river stops and the one following it begins.

So with subdividing a creature, whether before, during, and after it is sliced, its appearance of a continuous entity is just that —an appearance, an illusion. At any given moment, what was there has already produced something else. Or, to be more precise, has already become the cause for something new.

I think I understood now. That's so precious for me, you really gave me a different panorama to meditate upon. Thank you very much

[Miorita]

If you cut the worm lengthwise, the worm is killed and it cannot regenarate.
2 halves of the brain need each other in order to work. If you destroy the master box, that's it! It won't grow another one on a whim.

It's not a common worm, is a specific flatworm who can be divided vertically and in any other way, it has been divided in 279 different pieces, any of them has successfully formed a whole indipendent body

The dead body part severed remains dead because you failed to prove how the worm provides for a broken synergy otherwise known as a living organism.
I make no prayers, you have to revive the dead body part to an entire individual. I wait for proof.

[DNS]

Neither, because there’s nothing that is a continuous gandharva (or any other type of being).
They both arise as new beings.
There never was a continuous gandharva, even before the worm was cut.
...
Each moment of the arising of a being is actually just a very close reproduction of the previous moment of arising, caused by the previous moment of arising. The appearance of a continuous being occurs because moment to moment, the causes and conditions are nearly identical (which is, for example, why you don’t see yourself aging in real time but as an adult you can easily see that you are no longer a child).

It’s like how images in a motion picture of animated cartoon appear to have continuous movement even though they are really a series of separate, still images.

Good Buddha-Dharma answer. I wonder how other religions might answer. I suppose monotheistic-creationist religions would say animals don't have a soul, but from evolution we know that you can't say humans have a soul and animals don't; it has to be the same for humans and animals; either both groups have souls or both don't since humans are animals too. Buddhism would say no soul for both groups.

Hindus say that some animals have multiple souls, so a worm might have "100 souls" or some other large number and then if cut into new beings, some souls could go to the new being.

[Vajrasambhava]

If you cut the worm lengthwise, the worm is killed and it cannot regenarate.
2 halves of the brain need each other in order to work. If you destroy the master box, that's it! It won't grow another one on a whim.

It's not a common worm, is a specific flatworm who can be divided vertically and in any other way, it has been divided in 279 different pieces, any of them has successfully formed a whole indipendent body

The dead body part severed remains dead because you failed to prove how the worm provides for a broken synergy otherwise known as a living organism.
I make no prayers, you have to revive the dead body part to an entire individual. I wait for proof.

[kirtu]

These Flatworms Can Regrow A Body From A Fragment. How Do They Do It And Could We?

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... d-could-we

Key to planarians' regenerative ability are powerful cells called pluripotent stem cells, which make up one-fifth of their bodies and can grow into every new body part. Humans only have pluripotent stem cells during the embryonic stage, before birth. After that, we mostly lose our ability to sprout new organs.

[Miorita]

..

Yes, the high number of stem cells in a planarian is an important factor in regeneration because of the stem cells' versatility.

The "eyes" are eyespots:

Flatworms have prominent eyespots that constitute their most prominent sensory organs. The eyespots consist of a single layer of photosensitive cells that contain a pigment that reacts to light and signal nerve cells when they do so. Planarian flatworms have two lensless, primitive eyespots on their heads that can detect the intensity of light.

Light-averse planarian flatworms, known for their incredible ability to regenerate lost body parts, shy away from light even after they have been decapitated. This suggests they have evolved a second way to respond to light that doesn’t involve eyes.

They prefer red light over blue light and visible over ultraviolet light. And shy away in self-protection and to dedicate energy to healing. https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... capitated/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... of-a-tail/
It has to do with electricity.

the “gut instinct” response to UV light may be an ancient mechanism, with the eyespot and brain-controlled response to visible light a later evolutionary acquisition. As such, the researchers wonder whether their experiments might “replay” evolution in fast forward, showing how flatworms went from responding to ultraviolet light as an unthinking reflex to responding to visible light through a brain-controlled pathway.

I would consider continuum what relates to visible light perception and electricity since at ultraviolet light the planarian gives a gut answer. From the original specimen, the pieces inherit the conditions and the body mass assigned to a piece.
Each piece perceives the amount of light. More harmful than visible light is the ultraviolet light.

I don't know what they have as continuum. I give the video I've watched.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I would consider continuum what relates to visible light perception and electricity since at ultraviolet light the planarian gives a gut answer.

Doesn’t matter.
It’s a continuum only in the sense of being a chain of arising and dispelling moments. Again, it’s like a river or stream. Yes, it’s a continuous flow but a flow of what? Constant motion and changes, arising conditionally.

[Miorita]

I would consider continuum what relates to visible light perception and electricity since at ultraviolet light the planarian gives a gut answer.

Doesn’t matter.
It’s a continuum only in the sense of being a chain of arising and dispelling moments. Again, it’s like a river or stream. Yes, it’s a continuous flow but a flow of what? Constant motion and changes, arising conditionally.

So which is true?

Is the original specimen separate and totally different from the 3 cut parts?
or,
Is the original rather inseparable from the parts?
or
Is the original an aspect of the parts and for this reason ultimately identical to them?

[PadmaVonSamba]

user[/i]_id=15735]
I would consider continuum what relates to visible light perception and electricity since at ultraviolet light the planarian gives a gut answer.

Doesn’t matter.
It’s a continuum only in the sense of being a chain of arising and dispelling moments. Again, it’s like a river or stream. Yes, it’s a continuous flow but a flow of what? Constant motion and changes, arising conditionally.

So which is true?

Is the original specimen separate and totally different from the 3 cut parts?
or,
Is the original rather inseparable from the parts?
or
Is the original an aspect of the parts and for this reason ultimately identical to them?

None of the above.
The original is already an ever-changing composite.

In other words, when looked for, nothing is found that actually can be identified as the original.

This is basic anatman / sunyata understanding.
The Buddha’s teaching about the chariot merely being an assemblage of parts applies to the flatworm as well.

What we are referring to as consciousness isn’t a static entity. It’s an ever-arising process. The process of consciousness is already in motion in the flatworm, and the process continues in the subdivided parts.

It’s like how fire spreads.

[Miorita]

Doesn’t matter.
It’s a continuum only in the sense of being a chain of arising and dispelling moments. Again, it’s like a river or stream. Yes, it’s a continuous flow but a flow of what? Constant motion and changes, arising conditionally.

So which is true?

Is the original specimen separate and totally different from the 3 cut parts?
or,
Is the original rather inseparable from the parts?
or
Is the original an aspect of the parts and for this reason ultimately identical to them?

None of the above.
The original is already an ever-changing composite.

In other words, when looked for, nothing is found that actually can be identified as the original.

This is basic anatman / sunyata understanding.
The Buddha’s teaching about the chariot merely being an assemblage of parts applies to the flatworm as well.

What we are referring to as consciousness isn’t a static entity. It’s an ever-arising process. The process of consciousness is already in motion in the flatworm, and the process continues in the subdivided parts.

It’s like how fire spreads.

Thank you for assembling me back!
I wanted to isolate the worms and id circumstances for them. It is why I defined a continuum of circumstances that sticks with them rather than a stream for each part. I did that because I still do not know if there is a real separation or not when one attempts to cut it.
My feeling then is that there is none.
So I accept your answer as a valid answer.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Thank you for assembling me back!

What I find interesting, and sort of relates to this whole question, is that even within a human body, there are things like white blood cells that attack foreign substances such as germs and bacteria. They swarm around invading organisms and destroy them, almost as if they had minds of their own.
Although my experience is that of a singular individual, I’m really a mountain of microscopic cells. Everything about you and me is actually occurring at a level we can’t even see. In fact, the respiratory system functions on a molecular level: we breathe partly because carbon dioxide is heavier than oxygen!

Compared to this, even the sections of a flatworm are on a more complex level.

Similarly, a Portuguese Man-o-war, commonly mistaken for a jellyfish (although it is a medusoid) is actually three separately living or functioning organisms: the float, the tendrils, and the digestive system. I guess technically these would be interchangeable parts.

It really does push the question of “where” consciousness, or a perception of (and perhaps intentional interaction with) a creature’s surroundings occurs, especially when so many animals do not have brains or sensory functions as we understand the term.

[Miorita]

4 volumes of Abhidharmakośa-Bhāsya of Vasubandhu may answer the question.

One random quote:

Why the unconditioned factors do not forn part of the aggregates?
...
Why do the unconditioned factors (asamskrta), which are part of the sense-sphere of factors (dharmayatana) and of the element of factors (dharmadhatu, not form part of the aggregates?
22ab. The unconditioned factors are not named with respect to the aggregates because they do not correspond to the meaning [of skandha]

The 3 unconditioned factors are space, cessation due to deliberation, cesation not due to deliberation. - 3 fold classification of factors

It may look like

This community (Physalia physalis) is exposed to a unique set of environmental conditions including prolonged exposure to intense ultraviolet light, desiccation risk, and rough sea and wave conditions.

The zooids: pneumatophore (filled with gas, gives buoyancy), gastrozoid (feeds and excretes, has no tentacle), dactylozoids (tentacles with the sting secreting nematocysts) and the reproductive gonodendron

The function each has in the colony is determined, ie. specialized. They are working together, but can they survive without each other?
I say that because of the instant that working together becomes necessity, they are a one body.

What was I saying? Are they 1 or are they 3?



Again what I said depends on my/the perception.
The image is given for individual decision making.

[Miorita]

The polyps responsible for reproduction are the gonozooids, which are comprised of gonophores; sacs containing either ovaries or testes. Fertilization occurs externally when the men of war shed their gametes into the open ocean; sperm from one colony fuses with the eggs of another colony. It is unknown what causes this spawning cycle to begin. However, the release of gametes may be triggered by a chemical response due to the presence of men of war in large quantities in a single locality. This critical density is probably needed for successful fertilization. Physalia physalis also reproduces a sexually by means of budding or mitotic division.

http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2008/ni ... uction.htm

The hypothesis is that density is an environmental factor that triggers the release of gamets. It's a stress on a mass of colonies. And they answer by reproducing via zygotes rather than asexually. Sexual reproduction causes evolution.

Is this done consciously?
They float, they bring food closer, feed, and when time comes, plop, the gametes are out, evicted.

[PadmaVonSamba]

What was I saying? Are they 1 or are they 3?



Again what I said depends on my/the perception.
The image is given for individual decision making.

The lungs that are now in my chest used to belong to someone else. How much difference is there between me and this blue croissant?
Perhaps each of its parts experiences the whole thing is “me”. If you ask the float, it says “I am am the man-o-war, look at my tendrils” and if you ask the part with the tendrils, it says “I am the man-o-war, look at my float”.

My brain doesn’t think, “I am this person, PVS, and I also have arms and legs”.

I think the man-o-war consciousness may be like that of a trio of talented musicians, all experiencing a perfectly coordinated, collective mindset. If you’ve ever been part of a choir or instrumental group, then you will know what I’m talking about. You feel more than just your own input. Everybody is thinking together.


Interesting facts :Its favorite food is anchovies. each tendril can have 50,000 nematocysts (stingers) and the venom is a highly concentrated form of keratin. It was your mother in a past life.

[Miorita]

My mom, the man-o-war, send me to wash a coat that I keep in a bag.
I told her stinger that I'm exhausted and feel no drive to do it, that I don't want to and neither do I feel I have the resources to mobilize myself to wash it. Then I fell asleep and maybe I perceived someone in my dream.

You found anoother's lungs and the doctors after they placed you on the surgical table in the surgical suit, gave you calculated anesthesia. They took out their boxes upon boxes of instrumentary and in the sterile field as a team, attached a part to you.

Was that part alive? Absolutely necessary to ensure quality of surgery!
If things were going the right way, I would have been the one when you're in the ICU waking up to explain things to you.
I would say common sense stuff like, "your pneumatophore has been found, eat your anchovies because they provide your structure with mobility through the phosphorus ingested. You, pneumatophore, exist because PVS exists."
And there, the pneumatophore in you receives the command to stay alert and remain ingrained in the organization that wakes up at once in the recovery room.
I may have been doing japa with Mahadev mantra that the surgery is a succes and your eventual wig you use for modesty does not catch on fire from the instruments and solutions used there. I may have had to read advanced techniques of what your operation was about. But basically your command, impulse was "Breathe!" as in ABC.

When we put the foot down on the soil and step the wrong way, that is an example of a lack of coherence derived from lack of integration of all parts.
Then maybe I'll help you be discharged even though you're still in pain. I may be telling you that the pain signals you receive, are alert messages to your brain and they are there with a purpose. You'll have to keep living and chanting NMHRK even though it will hurt for a few days.
My mom ... if I step outside the door, reminds me I have to wash the coat. And I still feel beat.
But at least I sang to your song and was there to allow the conglomerate feel whole again.

Now I go wash the coat. I can do it. And you can live without pressing the morphine button constantly. You left Las Vegas long ago.

[Miorita]

I must apologize. I made a lot of logical mistakes.

Carbon monoxide is not oxygen. The alveoli need surfactant to allow the gas exchange, etc. etc.
Jumping philogenetically from zooids to human organisms is quite some acceleration. I drove without a meditation belt and I shouldn't have said what I said.

I am sorry! I take it back, I'm an idiot.

And yield back to PVS.


Miorita

[Vajrasvapna]

Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
I mean, if we cut a planarian vertically, which of the 2 separate beings is the "original" one?

Buddhist theory can be understood as nonlinear, where a single stream of consciousness can give rise to more than one being, as is the case with enlightened beings. However, this can also occur with non-enlightened beings. Additionally, it would be possible for multiple streams of consciousness to be unified.

[Miorita]

I can't shake off the feeling that Physalia physalis is only an automated closed system in nature.

... (a single stream of) consciousness can give rise to more than one being ...

This above, in scientific terms, is called a hypothesis.
What you need to do is prove its value of truth.
You need to prove that Physalia physalis is here because of its consciousness.