Magicians...

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Magicians...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:02 am But he also gave me a simple card trick, which was scientifically impossible, but it worked every time.
The point of all magic tricks is that they appear to do what is scientifically impossible.

The fact that it worked every time actually proves that what the magician did —-which was to create an illusion — is scientifically possible to do, even though it doesn’t really defy the laws of physics or whatever.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:02 am Nowadays think that certain part of the contemporary magic is explainable only by some form of Yogachara type of ideology. And that the contemporary arena of magic tricks hides in it some "real" magic, -for want of a better term.
Its yogacara teaching alright. Magical tricks are subjective mental imputations onto physical phenomenons and are of imagined nature. A deva would probably observe a magic trick with his/her celestial senses and laugh at its amateurism while shaking his/her head at the humans who are impressed by the fake wizard.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Archie2009 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:56 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:37 pm
Giovanni wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:08 am If an intelligent person who is interested in Dharma comes across people who identify as Buddhists claiming that showbiz magic is actually due to supernatural suspensions of the laws of physics..what effect might that have on their interest in Buddhism?
An intelligent person should realise that people who identify as Buddhists are as diverse as people who identify as Christian or female or flexitarian or Asian or baseball fans or ... (etc, etc, world without end, amen) and acknowledge that so identifying doesn't automatically confer good health, riches or wisdom on anyone.

:coffee:
Kim
Right, they could just as well be turned off by the copious display of crystals and minerals at their local new-agey 'dharma' store. There is even a real Nyingma dharma store in Amsterdam that sells excellent meditation cushions (their own brand) which is otherwise full off crystals, minerals and singing bowls.
The range of belief within Western Buddhist circles certainly goes from the hardline rationalism of Secular Buddhists (who don't believe anything that can't be scientifically proven) to the middle ground where most of us live (willing to believe anything that can't be disproved by science, which is a much weaker test) to the New-Agey fringe (willing to believe things even if they have been disproved by science).
I think the range of belief in Asian Buddhist circles is skewed more towards trusting the faith and ignoring the science, but that's probably changing there - just as it changed for the Christians in the West a hundred or so years ago.

:coffee:
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

Bristollad wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:37 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:02 am But he also gave me a simple card trick, which was scientifically impossible, but it worked every time.
I strongly suspect your belief that this "simple card trick" is actually scientifically impossible is false - it's simply that you don't understand the mechanism behind that trick that allows it to work every time. Your friend taught you the "what to do" for the trick, but not the "why it works". It's like telling someone to behave ethically if they want a good life but not explaining karma and results - behaving ethically will bring good results whether you understand karma or not.
The trick is or was impossible scientifically. Your comparison does not apply. I performed this card trick maybe for ten years or so, but not very often. Then I decided not do it anymore.

Magic charms are mentioned a few times in the sutras/suttas. A good example of their use is found in the Jatakas. (Can't remember the name of that Jataka now, I'll try to find it). Magic charms are mentioned as a metaphor in the Perfection of Wisdom sutras, for example in the Questions of Suvikrantavikramin. At the time of Buddha Gautama magic charms belonged to the normal view of life and existence. They were not so utterly extraordinary or fantastical as they are today. Rather they a were a logical and accepted explanation for various things.

Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevatta, translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu :
"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Gandhari charm by which the monk wielded manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Magicians...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:06 am The trick is or was impossible scientifically.
So you say.
I used to know a lot of card tricks. Maybe I know this one. What is it? What’s the effect? What does the person watching the trick see and experience?

This is a purely speculative and one-sided discussion until you tell us more about the trick.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Knotty Veneer »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:19 am
This is a purely speculative and one-sided discussion until you tell us more about the trick.
Pretty much every card trick ever is on YouTube. Perhaps Aemilius could find it there and show us.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

Bristollad wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:37 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:02 am But he also gave me a simple card trick, which was scientifically impossible, but it worked every time.
I strongly suspect your belief that this "simple card trick" is actually scientifically impossible is false - it's simply that you don't understand the mechanism behind that trick that allows it to work every time. Your friend taught you the "what to do" for the trick, but not the "why it works". It's like telling someone to behave ethically if they want a good life but not explaining karma and results - behaving ethically will bring good results whether you understand karma or not.
It is not like that, the comparison is not appropriate. World has changed quite a lot form the times of Gautama Shakyamuni.
In His times magic charms or magic spells were part of the accepted consensus reality. They were part of the explanation how things happen in the world. Magic spells or magic charms are mentioned in this manner in the sutras, for example in the Kevatta (or Kevaddha) sutta DN 11. There are also at least six Jataka stories in which magic spells play a prominent part.

We must remember that the scientific world view was nonexistent at the time of Buddha Gautama. From the Jataka stories and from the Kevaddha sutta we can see that the magic spells were the normal established explanation of how things work in the universe. Buddha's view and teaching about how things arise in the world was something quite new and modern compared to it. Magic spells are mentioned in the Jatakas: 150, 159, 203, 241, 386, and 543 IV. This is not a comprehensive list. As an example we can take No. 386. Kharaputta Jataka:

"....The young nāgas hearing this turned back at once to the nāga-world and told their king. He being moved went instantly to the king's chamber, told him all and was forgiven: then be said, "In this way I make amends," and gave the king a charm giving knowledge of all sounds: "This, O king, is a priceless spell: if you give anyone this spell you will at once enter the fire and die." The king said, "It is well," and accepted it. From that time he understood the voice even of ants. One day he was sitting on the dais eating solid food with honey and molasses: and a drop of honey, a drop of molasses, and a morsel of cake fell on the ground. An ant seeing this comes crying, "The king's honey jar is broken on the dais, his molasses-cart and cake-cart are upset; come and eat honey and molasses and cake." The king hearing the cry laughed. The queen being near him thought, "What has the king seen that he laughs?" When the king had eaten his solid food and bathed and sat down cross-legged, a fly said to his wife, "Come, lady, let us enjoy love." She said, "Excuse me for a little, husband: they
will soon be bringing perfumes to the king; as he perfumes himself some powder will fall at his feet: I will stay there and become fragrant, then we will enjoy ourselves lying on the king's back." The king hearing the voice laughed again. The queen thought again, "What has he seen that he laughs?" Again when the king was eating his supper, a lump of rice fell on the ground. The ants cried, "A wagon of rice has broken in the king's palace, and there is none to eat it." The king hearing this laughed again. The queen took a golden spoon and helping him reflected, "Is it at the sight of me that the king laughs?" She went to the bed-chamber with the king and at bed-time she asked, "Why did you laugh, O king?" He said, "What have you to do with why I laugh?" but being asked again and again he told her. Then she said, "Give me your spell of knowledge." He said, "It cannot be given": but though repulsed she pressed him again.

The king said, "If I give you this spell, I shall die." "Even though you die, give it me." The king, being in the power of womankind, saying, "It is well," consented and went to the park in a chariot, saying, "I shall enter the fire after giving away this spell." At that moment, Sakka, king of gods, looked down on the earth and seeing this case said, "This foolish king, knowing that he will enter the fire through womankind, is on his way; I will give him his life ": so he took Sujā, daughter of the Asuras, and went to Benares... etc.."

complete text: https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j3/j3087.htm


Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevatta:

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Gandhari charm by which the monk wielded manifold psychic powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"
"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

complete sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Magicians...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:40 pm
World has changed quite a lot form the times of Gautama Shakyamuni.
In His times magic charms or magic spells were part of the accepted consensus reality. They were part of the explanation how things happen in the world. Magic spells or magic charms are mentioned in this manner in the sutras, for example in the Kevatta (or Kevaddha) sutta DN 11. There are also at least six Jataka stories in which magic spells play a prominent part. We must remember that the scientific world view was nonexistent at the time of Buddha Gautama.
1. That’s not entirely true. There was quite a lot of scientific knowledge in Ancient India, and Gautama employed scientific reasoning in many of his teachings.

2. Consensus doesn’t make something true. There are more people in the world who believe in Jesus and Allah than there are Buddhists. Does that mean that Jesus and Allah exist? No, it doesn’t.

Again, what’s the card trick?
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Re: Magicians...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 pm But there are lots of "tricks" that are hard to explain in an other way.
that’s why they are such good tricks.
But they are still just tricks.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:13 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 pm But there are lots of "tricks" that are hard to explain in an other way.
that’s why they are such good tricks.
But they are still just tricks.
Then why don't you perform just one of them? I wonder, I mean the ones shown in the video.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Magicians...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 8:53 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:13 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 pm But there are lots of "tricks" that are hard to explain in an other way.
that’s why they are such good tricks.
But they are still just tricks.
Then why don't you perform just one of them? I wonder, I mean the ones shown in the video.
Really? That’s your logic:
If I can do something and nobody else knows how I did it, therefore I have supernatural powers.

Well, I think maybe you must have supernatural powers, because I can’t figure out any way to explain how gullible that reasoning is.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 8:53 am Then why don't you perform just one of them? I wonder, I mean the ones shown in the video.
Okay, get me a 50 foot crane and I will…



:rolling:
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:27 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:02 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:27 am

Let me get this straight. You think David copperfield is doing *real* magic?
I strongly suspect him of that.

Let me get this straight. You really don't know what magic is without getting into it yourself. As a youngster I found that there are books about magic or rather magic tricks in the public library. I then borrowed several books on magic, and tried to do some of these tricks for my friends, parents and relatives. I felt I was too clumsy and the tricks were often too simple and too easy to find out. Then on a summer vacation a stranger showed me how to do some simple tricks that mainly involved finger dexterity. But he also gave me a simple card trick, which was scientifically impossible, but it worked every time. As a teenager I didn't care so much about its philosophical implications. The important thing was that it worked.
Can you describe this card trick for us?
This took place more than 50 years ago. I hade read several books on magic tricks, and I knew what kind of card tricks there are, that are explained in the literature. This trick in question looks like the normal kind in which you let some body take one card from a deck of cards. And this person knows the card, but you don't know it. The card is put back into the deck. Then after some procedures you pick up the right card, quite amazingly. I used it for may be ten years, occasionally. Then I decided never to do it anymore. So it is some time ago.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Magicians...

Post by PeterC »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:57 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:27 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:02 am

I strongly suspect him of that.

Let me get this straight. You really don't know what magic is without getting into it yourself. As a youngster I found that there are books about magic or rather magic tricks in the public library. I then borrowed several books on magic, and tried to do some of these tricks for my friends, parents and relatives. I felt I was too clumsy and the tricks were often too simple and too easy to find out. Then on a summer vacation a stranger showed me how to do some simple tricks that mainly involved finger dexterity. But he also gave me a simple card trick, which was scientifically impossible, but it worked every time. As a teenager I didn't care so much about its philosophical implications. The important thing was that it worked.
Can you describe this card trick for us?
This took place more than 50 years ago. I hade read several books on magic tricks, and I knew what kind of card tricks there are, that are explained in the literature. This trick in question looks like the normal kind in which you let some body take one card from a deck of cards. And this person knows the card, but you don't know it. The card is put back into the deck. Then after some procedures you pick up the right card, quite amazingly. I used it for may be ten years, occasionally. Then I decided never to do it anymore. So it is some time ago.
There are several tricks like this that work automatically without the performer necessarily knowing why, I’m sure you just were taught one of those. To take a more elaborate example - if you riffle-shuffle a deck of cards a certain number of times in a certain way, the cards will all return to their starting positions. This isn’t magic, it’s just arithmetic.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:19 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:57 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:27 am

Can you describe this card trick for us?
This took place more than 50 years ago. I hade read several books on magic tricks, and I knew what kind of card tricks there are, that are explained in the literature. This trick in question looks like the normal kind in which you let some body take one card from a deck of cards. And this person knows the card, but you don't know it. The card is put back into the deck. Then after some procedures you pick up the right card, quite amazingly. I used it for may be ten years, occasionally. Then I decided never to do it anymore. So it is some time ago.
There are several tricks like this that work automatically without the performer necessarily knowing why, I’m sure you just were taught one of those. To take a more elaborate example - if you riffle-shuffle a deck of cards a certain number of times in a certain way, the cards will all return to their starting positions. This isn’t magic, it’s just arithmetic.
I never learned the riffle-suffle technique. In this trick I suffled the cards in a simple way, and they were quite certainly in a random order after that.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

The magical illusion -metaphor appears in many sutras and commentaries. From these we get some idea what kind of magical illusions were created at the time of Buddha Gautama and in the centuries after Him.

1. In the Samdhi Nirmocana sutra, Chapter One (transl. of John Powers) we have:
"Son of good lineage, for example, a magician or a magi-
cian's able student, standing at the crossing of four great
roads, after gathering grasses, leaves, twigs, pebbles or stones,
displays various magical forms, such as a herd of elephants, a
cavalry, chariots, and infantry; collections of gems, pearls,
lapis lazuli, conch-shells, crystal, and coral; collections of
wealth, grain, treasuries, and granaries."

2. The Prajñaparamita-ratnaguna-samcayagatha (Rgs) states:
"This gnosis shows him all beings as like an illusion, Resembling a great crowd of people, conjured up at the crossroads, By a magician, who then cuts off many thousands of heads; He knows this whole living world as a magical creation, and yet remains without fear." Rgs 1:19

3. Vasubandhu's Trisvabhavanirdesa, a Mahayana Yogacara "Mind Only" text,
discusses the example of the magician who makes a piece of wood appear as an elephant. The audience is looking at a piece of wood but, under the spell of magic, perceives an elephant instead.
( The Emptiness of Emptiness: An Introduction to Early Indian Madhyamika. C.W. Huntingdon, Jr. with Geshe Namgyal Wangchen)

4. Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta in Pali (and with a Chinese Agama parallel at SĀ 265) which states:
"Suppose, monks, that a magician (māyākāro) or a magician’s apprentice (māyākārantevāsī) would display a magical illusion (māyaṃ) at a crossroads."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Magicians...

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Aemilius wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 8:54 am The magical illusion -metaphor appears in many sutras and commentaries.
…yes, always pointing out that they were tricks and not really as they appear.

I’m India, there’s a long tradition of people using various tricks to create the illusion that they have magical powers. It’s okay for street performers, but very often phony gurus do these things gs to attract followers and get rich.

A famous example in recent times was Sathya Sai Baba who had quite a few tricks up his sleeve, such as seeming to produce ashes from his finger tips.
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Re: Magicians...

Post by VolkerK »

what do you think about buddhist magicians?








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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:22 am
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 8:54 am The magical illusion -metaphor appears in many sutras and commentaries.
…yes, always pointing out that they were tricks and not really as they appear.
Yes! And as the original posting of this thread said the Perfection of Wisdom is also illusory like a magical creation. This is said in the Perfection of Wisdom sutras. Your interpretation of magical illusion is arch-nihilistic. Do you understand?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Magicians...

Post by Aemilius »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:19 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:57 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:27 am

Can you describe this card trick for us?
This took place more than 50 years ago. I hade read several books on magic tricks, and I knew what kind of card tricks there are, that are explained in the literature. This trick in question looks like the normal kind in which you let some body take one card from a deck of cards. And this person knows the card, but you don't know it. The card is put back into the deck. Then after some procedures you pick up the right card, quite amazingly. I used it for may be ten years, occasionally. Then I decided never to do it anymore. So it is some time ago.
There are several tricks like this that work automatically without the performer necessarily knowing why, I’m sure you just were taught one of those. To take a more elaborate example - if you riffle-shuffle a deck of cards a certain number of times in a certain way, the cards will all return to their starting positions. This isn’t magic, it’s just arithmetic.
That is probably a modern myth. I tried what it would look like.

The deck of cards can be seen as a row of numbers: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 52

When we do a riffle-shuffle it means that we divide the first row into two rows of equal length : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 26 & 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 ... 52

As a result of a riffle-shuffle we get the row: 1 27 2 28 3 29 4 30 5 31 6 32 7 33 8 34 9 35 ... 26 52

This is again divided into two rows, which are: 1 27 2 28 3 29 4 30 5 31 6 32 ...13 39 & 14 40 15 41 16 42 17 43 18 44 ... 26 52

The second riffle-shuffle gives us the row: 1 14 27 40 2 15 28 41 3 16 29 42 4 17 30 43 5 17 30 43 6 ... 39 52

This is again divided into two rows: 1 14 27 40 2 15 28 41 3 16 29 42 4 17 30 43 5 17 30 43 6 19 32 45 7 20 & 33 46 8 21 34 47 9 22 35 48 10 23 36 49 11 24 37 50 12 25 38 51 13 26 39 52

The third riffle-shuffle gives us cards in this order: 1 33 14 46 27 8 40 21 2 34 15 47 28 9 41 22 3 35 16 48 29 10 42 23 4 36 17 49 30 11 43 24 5 37 18 50 31 12 44 25 6 38 19 51 32 13 45 26 7 39 20 52

I am quite confident that the cards will not return to the original order after tens or hundreds or one thousand riffle-shuffles.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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