The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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Shaiksha
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Shaiksha »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:34 am
I have done 2 full ngondros during my years of practice while working full time. It isn't more difficult than doing any other practice you just have to be properly motivated and have some discipline. While I was doing ngondro I also did other practices, like Dzogchen, yidams and so on. Ngondro is not a punishment nor is it keeping you from the main practice and once you understood that it is quite easy and rewarding.
Very inspiring. It is the attitude, isn't it? If we don't get fixated with the numbers, then maybe we can be more relaxed and enjoy doing it more.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:26 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:37 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:31 am
It’s not rare. I’m sure there are many people on their forum who have done multiple ngondros.
It is rare, and very demanding for most of us now, which of course does not mean that no one does it (just as completing a three year retreat is terribly rare and yet I am friends with a handful of people who have been through it). Kids are ngondro-killers (and generally tend to drastically limit one's formal practice in general). So can be ageing or ill parents, serious health issues, serious job-related challenges (and who is free of them these days?).

Being able to devote 2 hours to formal practice a day, every day, is a wonderful, and incredibly rare opportunity these days.
Ok, obviously we can only speak from our own experience, but every vajrayana practitioner I am friends with has done at least one, most have done two or more. I did three though the last one was abbreviated.
Quite wonderful. There are vast differences then, which must have to do with one's localities (the sangha, the country, the social class, etc) and perhaps one's age (all the people who I know to have completed a ngondro or ngondros are in their mid 40s or older, usually older).
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

For many practitioners (in my circle), 2-3 hours of daily practice is just the norm for completing the compulsory daily sadhana commitments (Dzogchen related or not). Ngondro is just added on optional practice with an additional time of one or two more hours since its not compulsory, flexible and non stress.

Completing the medium length sadhana is actually more time consuming and effort than ngondro. And lots of commentaries actually recommended one to practice four sessions a day if possible. :rolleye:
yagmort wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:25 am in drukpa and drikung they do 3 cycles of ngondro usually, westerners included. i knew one western guy who completed 3 cycles as part of drikung 3 y retreat in Lachi. i also once asked some drukpa monks at one place and all of them did 3 cycles of ngondro (short prostrations though) and 3 y retreat. no one was boasting about it.
I used to have the delusion that my practice is long/fast enough until I realized many Asians (young or not) finished ngondro within one year. Then after an instant of embarrassment that humbled me, more motivation arises.
Last edited by Kai lord on Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Shaiksha »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:34 pm
I used to have the delusion that my practice is long/fast enough until I realized many Asians (young or not) finished ngondro within one year. Then after an instant of embarrassment that humbled me, more motivation arises.
Why were your embarrased? Is speed or quantity a good benchmark for practice success?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:45 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:34 pm
I used to have the delusion that my practice is long/fast enough until I realized many Asians (young or not) finished ngondro within one year. Then after an instant of embarrassment that humbled me, more motivation arises.
Why were your embarrased? Is speed or quantity a good benchmark for practice success?
No but they have demonstrated more diligent and motivation probably as a result of deep reflecting on the four thoughts. Meanwhile I realize that I had been finding excuses to relax more in the comfort of samsara. :rolling:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:21 pm
heart wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:34 am
I have done 2 full ngondros during my years of practice while working full time. It isn't more difficult than doing any other practice you just have to be properly motivated and have some discipline. While I was doing ngondro I also did other practices, like Dzogchen, yidams and so on. Ngondro is not a punishment nor is it keeping you from the main practice and once you understood that it is quite easy and rewarding.
Very inspiring. It is the attitude, isn't it? If we don't get fixated with the numbers, then maybe we can be more relaxed and enjoy doing it more.
It is all about the attitude. The first ngöndro is many times done in a rush to try to get to the so called good stuff. But if you can have the right attitude it is a really nice practice. Sadhana practice can also be nice and useful. It is all about the attitude......

As Malcolm said on the last page" Dzogchen practice does not entail sadhana practice, though many practitioners practice anuyoga sadhanas, etc., and even maintain monastic vows, because we don’t use Dzogchen as a limitation."

So why limit yourself? Dzogchen includes everything, it does not excude anything, not even ngöndro!
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Shaiksha »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:51 pm
No but they have demonstrated more diligent and motivation probably as a result of deep reflecting on the four thoughts. Meanwhile I realize that I had been finding excuses to relax more in the comfort of samsara. :rolling:
It is the boddhisatva vow - you want stay as long as possible in samsara to help as many sentient beings as possible.

It is said that Santideva had a relaxed attitude toward life or something along this line which I am sure most of us have heard the story. :thumbsup:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:45 pm Is speed or quantity a good benchmark for practice success?
imho it is a benchmark of dedication. i've seen lots of folks who don't seem to realize what are at stake. they want to be enlightened, to feel good, to soothe their childhood traumas and what not. they also naive enough to believe they just get direct introduction and enlightenment is basically around the corner without leaving netflix, social media addiction and tinder hookup culture. they didn't internalize the very basics of mind trainings from Vima Nyingthig, like impermanence, deceptive nature of pleasure, futility of our projects, futility of life in general etc. i m not saying it with any sort of judgement.

i remember how Tenzin Palmo mentioned a new batch of young nuns from Zangskar at her nunnery. she was amazed how those young girls without any prior training were able just sit still, without any constant urges to distract themselves. she assumed since they came from the very rural place with traditional way of life, their mind didn't develop the unhealthy patterns of staring at the screen all the time or doing things to get validation. so perhaps for western practitioners to do ngondro or some other sadhana-based stuff is not a bad idea at all...
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Shaiksha »

merilingpa wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:56 pm So why limit yourself? Dzogchen includes everything, it does not excude anything, not even ngöndro!
No, of course not. As it is, it is part of my practice. I have received the lungs for a few ngondro practices. But, I never saw it as my main practice. If you look at my previous posts, I was referring to the "formal ngondro program" - where you accumulate certain numbers within a certain time period. But, some really good points have been made about this so no further comment from me - I am just enjoying the wisdom from some long-term practitioners here
Last edited by Shaiksha on Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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yagmort wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:17 pm i remember how Tenzin Palmo mentioned a new batch of young nuns from Zangskar at her nunnery. she was amazed how those young girls without any prior training were able just sit still, without any constant urges to distract themselves. she assumed since they came from the very rural place with traditional way of life, their mind didn't develop the unhealthy patterns of staring at the screen all the time or doing things to get validation.
Thats quite true, those Asians that I mentioned, are from rural areas....And their bodies are very fit and healthy since the most time consuming part of ngondro, is the prostrations. Pass that, everything else is a breeze.......
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:26 pm ..Pass that, everything else is a breeze.......
can't vote for others, but my tongue was so exhausted during Dorje Sempa i couldn't pronounce shit towards the end of a day with 2-3 the amount of time needed per each mantra recitation. couldn't even imagine that uttering things could be so taxing
Last edited by yagmort on Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Tata1 »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:26 pm
yagmort wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:17 pm i remember how Tenzin Palmo mentioned a new batch of young nuns from Zangskar at her nunnery. she was amazed how those young girls without any prior training were able just sit still, without any constant urges to distract themselves. she assumed since they came from the very rural place with traditional way of life, their mind didn't develop the unhealthy patterns of staring at the screen all the time or doing things to get validation.
Thats quite true, those Asians that I mentioned, are from rural areas....And their bodies are very fit and healthy since the most time consuming part of ngondro, is the prostrations. Pass that, everything else is a breeze.......
For me mandala was way harder
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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yagmort wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:17 pm imho it is a benchmark of dedication.
I somewhat have a different experience and therefore a different perspective. Let's take the classical ngondro book - The Words of My Perfect Teacher. This is such a beautiful book. When I first read it, it moved me deeply and I almost had tears (and laughters too) while reading it. It is defintely one of my top dharma books. I plan to re-read it again and just let the words sink into my continuum. I am sure I will learn many new things again even if I have read it before.

Same thing when I am doing refuge and boddhicitta, etc slowly. I can hear my own words and they sometimes move me because many of the words are also beautiful (if they are in English, of course). On the other hand, if I do it at speed, it just does not happen and I have done them at speed many times.

So, prima facie, reading a book about ngrondro has had a more profound effect than doing the ngondro practice itself, strangely enough. However, of course, I understand you cannot judge it like that. These practices also work on the subconscoius level, don't they?

Having said this, I am open-minded to doing the "formal ngondro program" - maybe when the time and circumstances are right, then I will do it. Meanwhile, I can still enjoy getting distracted on the internet forum... :coffee:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:21 pm
heart wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:34 am
I have done 2 full ngondros during my years of practice while working full time. It isn't more difficult than doing any other practice you just have to be properly motivated and have some discipline. While I was doing ngondro I also did other practices, like Dzogchen, yidams and so on. Ngondro is not a punishment nor is it keeping you from the main practice and once you understood that it is quite easy and rewarding.
Very inspiring. It is the attitude, isn't it? If we don't get fixated with the numbers, then maybe we can be more relaxed and enjoy doing it more.
In Dzongsar Khyentses Ngondrogar you do it by time instead.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:06 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:26 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:37 am


It is rare, and very demanding for most of us now, which of course does not mean that no one does it (just as completing a three year retreat is terribly rare and yet I am friends with a handful of people who have been through it). Kids are ngondro-killers (and generally tend to drastically limit one's formal practice in general). So can be ageing or ill parents, serious health issues, serious job-related challenges (and who is free of them these days?).

Being able to devote 2 hours to formal practice a day, every day, is a wonderful, and incredibly rare opportunity these days.
Ok, obviously we can only speak from our own experience, but every vajrayana practitioner I am friends with has done at least one, most have done two or more. I did three though the last one was abbreviated.
Quite wonderful. There are vast differences then, which must have to do with one's localities (the sangha, the country, the social class, etc) and perhaps one's age (all the people who I know to have completed a ngondro or ngondros are in their mid 40s or older, usually older).
I’m not sure. I know people of all ages and backgrounds who have completed a cycle of preliminaries.

I think it boils down to two points. First, if you’re serious about the Dharma you’re going to need to put a lot of time and effort into practice, which might be (at some point) preliminaries, or three roots, or perhaps just Dzogchen practices directly - but you can’t avoid it. Second, if you’re serious about doing that, you’ll find the time. Some people might have a more or a less time available, and everyone needs to be pragmatic about how they prioritize their lives, but there’s no getting around that.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:48 pm So Vimalamitra WAS practicing Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya, but he wasn't REALLY practicing them, so it doesn't count?

Philosophy 101, anyone?
Well, it’s said that Vimalamitra practiced khorde rushen for 6 months out of the year each year. And he went jalü phowa chenpo, which we know requires a lot of togal practice. So not sure how much time he spent on sadhanas. And at a certain point in togal one must cease to speak to the point of not even saying prayers or reciting mantras.
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