Western Philosophy and emptiness

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:35 pm the śunyatā-bimba)?
At which point in the five paths does one experience “reflections of emptiness (stong pa’i gzugs bsnyan)?
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:03 am At which point in the five paths does one experience “reflections of emptiness (stong pa’i gzugs bsnyan)?
We agreed not to get sidetracked into tantra here, I just mentioned them parenthetically and they weren't integral to my response. I'm more than happy to start a separate thread elsewhere discussing Kālacakra, explaining the innate buddha qualities, etc.
Malcolm
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:35 pm
You further say that the buddha qualities spontaneously arise from resting in gnosis, but that doesn't logically follow.
1) Are buddha qualities the same as or different than omniscience? If they are the same, then the elimination of affliction through realizing emptiness free of extremes and attainment of omniscience are the same thing, just as raising a lamp in the dark room dispels darkness that’s been there for 1000 years. 1) if they are different than omniscience, than what are they? Where do they exist in the five aggregates that define a sentient being?
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:46 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:35 pm You further say that the buddha qualities spontaneously arise from resting in gnosis, but that doesn't logically follow.
1) Are buddha qualities the same as or different than omniscience? If they are the same, then the elimination of affliction through realizing emptiness free of extremes and attainment of omniscience are the same thing, just as raising a lamp in the dark room dispels darkness that’s been there for 1000 years. 1) if they are different than omniscience, than what are they? Where do they exist in the five aggregates that define a sentient being?
Explaining how realizing emptiness will/won't manifest buddha qualities depends, of course, on the type of emptiness in question. For instance, all of Mahayana agrees that the mere realization of emptiness of the skandhas won't do the trick. For the gzhanstong position, the emptiness being realized is replete with all the buddha qualities, and so obviously realization of emptiness is sufficient.

What isn't clear to me is how the (non)experience(?) of the non-arising of conceptual mind, that you and Cāndrakīrti hint at obliquely but never really describe with any specificity or clarity necessarily entails (per the below), for instance, that one will have an untiring intention to help others (part of Maitreya's definition of omniscience). Okay, so no concepts arise, which means that one doesn't reify objects to grasp onto, nor do they have any sense of self as the grasper who seeks an impossible satisfaction and completion, and all therefore appears as a dynamic unfolding dreamlike interdependent flux. What about that means a person will tirelessly devote their time to helping others?
stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:35 pm How precisely does gnosis "see" anything? You before said that any such seeing/witnessing/awareness would axiomatically have to fall within the 18 dhatus or contradict the buddha's teaching. Why is gnosis an exception, other than because it is defined as such? You say gnosis is ineffable, and like Cāndrakīrti deny that it is a mere absence of experience but provide little actual explanation of the phenomenological contours of gnosis, all while describing others who say similar things as hiding behind "apophatic mysticism." You say gnosis sees suchness, but don't you define suchness as emptiness that is a non-implicative negation, which would mean there's nothing to "see"...
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

stong gzugs wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:47 pm What about that means a person will tirelessly devote their time to helping others?
Are you basically asking on what principle
does awakening (direct realization of emptiness)
launch compassion?

Does it create an “urge” to free others from samsara, and if so, why?

Is this the question?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:58 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:47 pm What about that means a person will tirelessly devote their time to helping others?
Are you basically asking on what principle
does awakening (direct realization of emptiness)
launch compassion?

Does it create an “urge” to free others from samsara, and if so, why?

Is this the question?
Yes, but specifically from the viewpoint of Cāndrakīrti. We have to remember that Cāndrakīrti's basically unable to provide any specificity about the actual (non)experience(?) of Buddhas. But he does say what it isn't, and that much enough is problematic. Because for Cāndrakīrti jñana is merely the non-arising of the mind paralleling the non-arising of any phenomena, then Buddhas not only don't even perceive the conventional reality like tables and chairs (because even perceptions are conceptually structured in his theory, unlike in Dharmakīrti's), but Buddhas also don't know ultimate reality either (because there's no mind to know and nothing to be known, as jñana is defined as an absence of mind, not asserted as something positive with its own qualities).

Where, in all this, do you get the ability and motivation to teach others? Consider ability: if Buddhas don't even see the conventional world, how do they interact with sentient beings to benefit them, as they don't even really see sentient beings which are part of conventional reality; and how could they use language, as they are without concepts that undergird all language? Because Buddhas don't know any thing, they can't really teach or benefit others. And even if you could somehow account for the ability, where does this motivation come from?

Surely Cāndrakīrti must have a good answer to these major problems in his system? No, not really. Cāndrakīrti's explanation of how Buddhas teach and benefit others is as vague and far-fetched as his explanations of what the Buddhas' experience of jñana is. In terms of ability, he roughly claims that form bodies are produced through accumulations of merit and the teachings emerge (in some mysterious unexplained way) as sounds from this non-arising of mind that knows nothing and has no content, and that these sounds aren't just coming from mouths but also from other random objects? What about motivation? The Buddhas don't have any mind any more, but back when they did, they were like potters spinning a wheel and had intentions to act to benefit others, and the wheel continues to spin even now that they have lost their minds that can create intentions to act. (So if the accumulations of merit and vows and intentions that produce the form bodies are dependently originated through action, won't the wheel eventually slow down and stop spinning, so Buddhas are also impermanent?). And if you really push him on this? Well, again another vague metaphor, he says there is no real ability or motivation to help others presently for Buddhas, but the Buddhas are instead like wish fulfilling gems that grant wishes and help mechanically, without using any mind or feeling of compassion whatsoever.

So, anybody is absolutely free to build their view around Cāndrakīrti and place their enlightenment in his hands. But I'm not really going to put my trust in someone who can't coherently explain the experience of Buddhas and how/why Buddhas benefit others, especially when he basically seems to be describing something akin to a zombie. These issues are well-known and there simply aren't good answers, even though people have offered their own convoluted fixes to these ideas. As I have said before, Cāndrakīrti wasn't a serious commentator in India, and had maybe only one Indian seriously engage with his ideas, Jayānanda, who points out these issues. Cāndrakīrti only became popularized in the Tibetan polemical context, especially promoted by Tsongkhapa, who had a very novel re-interpretation of Cāndrakīrti anyways, in part because of these issues. I get the sense that this conversation has wound itself down, and I've also lost steam on this to reply much further, but I find it funny that rangtongpas standing in this house of glass try to throw stones at gzhanstong. But this will have to be a conversation for another day!
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:54 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Does it create an “urge” to free others from samsara, and if so, why?

Is this the question?
Yes, but specifically from the viewpoint of Cāndrakīrti. We have to remember that Cāndrakīrti's basically unable to provide any specificity about the actual (non)experience(?) of Buddhas.
So are you asking how does compassion arise from a state of non-experience?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:55 am So are you asking how does compassion arise from a state of non-experience?
There are number of interconnected problems for me specifically in Cāndrakīrti's view (which is not the same as Nāgārjuna's), that I've elaborated in my post above. I'd like to see clear answers from Cāndrakīrti about (a) what the Buddha's experience of jñana is like and then explanations for how that experience logically relates to the (b) ability and (c) motivation to help others. From what I've read of Cāndrakīrti, his attempt at answers all rely on vague metaphors about spinning pottery wheels, sounds emerging from void, and wish-fulfilling gems that aren't all that clear or convincing.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:58 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:55 am So are you asking how does compassion arise from a state of non-experience?
There are number of interconnected problems for me specifically in Cāndrakīrti's view (which is not the same as Nāgārjuna's), that I've elaborated in my post above. I'd like to see clear answers from Cāndrakīrti about (a) what the Buddha's experience of jñana is like and then explanations for how that experience logically relates to the (b) ability and (c) motivation to help others. From what I've read of Cāndrakīrti, his attempt at answers all rely on vague metaphors about spinning pottery wheels, sounds emerging from void, and wish-fulfilling gems that aren't all that clear or convincing.
Well if you ever meet him, I guess you can ask him. But I wouldn’t count on it being any time soon.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:30 pm Well if you ever meet him, I guess you can ask him. But I wouldn’t count on it being any time soon.
My problem is that if Cāndrakīrti got enlightened and became a Buddha, even if I did meet him and ask him my question, if his theory is true, he wouldn't be able to answer :lol:
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by boda »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:23 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:04 am For me, the more interesting questions are about how sunyata should affect the way we live in the world.
This is such an important and interesting question! Do you have a source you turn to for answers to how we should live in the world if it and us are empty?
If everything is empty there’s nothing to grasp, so realization of it should result in a profound sense of ease.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:58 pm
I'd like to see clear answers from Cāndrakīrti about (a) what the Buddha's experience of jñana is like and then explanations for how that experience logically relates to the (b) ability and (c) motivation to help others.
Ultimately, if there’s a direct realization of phenomena bring empty of inherent existence,
then there are no “others”.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:20 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:30 pm Well if you ever meet him, I guess you can ask him. But I wouldn’t count on it being any time soon.
My problem is that if Cāndrakīrti got enlightened and became a Buddha, even if I did meet him and ask him my question, if his theory is true, he wouldn't be able to answer :lol:
Textual wisdom is one thing, living experience of realization is another.

You believe a buddha wouldn't be able to help you understand the meaning of emptiness?
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:54 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:58 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:47 pm What about that means a person will tirelessly devote their time to helping others?
Are you basically asking on what principle
does awakening (direct realization of emptiness)
launch compassion?

Does it create an “urge” to free others from samsara, and if so, why?

Is this the question?
Yes, but specifically from the viewpoint of Cāndrakīrti. We have to remember that Cāndrakīrti's basically unable to provide any specificity about the actual (non)experience(?) of Buddhas. But he does say what it isn't, and that much enough is problematic. Because for Cāndrakīrti jñana is merely the non-arising of the mind paralleling the non-arising of any phenomena, then Buddhas not only don't even perceive the conventional reality like tables and chairs (because even perceptions are conceptually structured in his theory, unlike in Dharmakīrti's), but Buddhas also don't know ultimate reality either (because there's no mind to know and nothing to be known, as jñana is defined as an absence of mind, not asserted as something positive with its own qualities).

Where, in all this, do you get the ability and motivation to teach others? Consider ability: if Buddhas don't even see the conventional world, how do they interact with sentient beings to benefit them, as they don't even really see sentient beings which are part of conventional reality; and how could they use language, as they are without concepts that undergird all language? Because Buddhas don't know any thing, they can't really teach or benefit others. And even if you could somehow account for the ability, where does this motivation come from?

Surely Cāndrakīrti must have a good answer to these major problems in his system? No, not really. Cāndrakīrti's explanation of how Buddhas teach and benefit others is as vague and far-fetched as his explanations of what the Buddhas' experience of jñana is. In terms of ability, he roughly claims that form bodies are produced through accumulations of merit and the teachings emerge (in some mysterious unexplained way) as sounds from this non-arising of mind that knows nothing and has no content, and that these sounds aren't just coming from mouths but also from other random objects? What about motivation? The Buddhas don't have any mind any more, but back when they did, they were like potters spinning a wheel and had intentions to act to benefit others, and the wheel continues to spin even now that they have lost their minds that can create intentions to act. (So if the accumulations of merit and vows and intentions that produce the form bodies are dependently originated through action, won't the wheel eventually slow down and stop spinning, so Buddhas are also impermanent?). And if you really push him on this? Well, again another vague metaphor, he says there is no real ability or motivation to help others presently for Buddhas, but the Buddhas are instead like wish fulfilling gems that grant wishes and help mechanically, without using any mind or feeling of compassion whatsoever.

So, anybody is absolutely free to build their view around Cāndrakīrti and place their enlightenment in his hands. But I'm not really going to put my trust in someone who can't coherently explain the experience of Buddhas and how/why Buddhas benefit others, especially when he basically seems to be describing something akin to a zombie. These issues are well-known and there simply aren't good answers, even though people have offered their own convoluted fixes to these ideas. As I have said before, Cāndrakīrti wasn't a serious commentator in India, and had maybe only one Indian seriously engage with his ideas, Jayānanda, who points out these issues. Cāndrakīrti only became popularized in the Tibetan polemical context, especially promoted by Tsongkhapa, who had a very novel re-interpretation of Cāndrakīrti anyways, in part because of these issues. I get the sense that this conversation has wound itself down, and I've also lost steam on this to reply much further, but I find it funny that rangtongpas standing in this house of glass try to throw stones at gzhanstong. But this will have to be a conversation for another day!
Tell me you have not understood one word of Candra without telling me you have not understood one word of Candra.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Rennigeb wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:28 pm I was thinking about how emptiness seems like a philosophical position. While I know it's against any kind of ontology or metaphysics in the Aristotelian sense, do you think there is any kind of philosophy that can be as deep and sophisticated or nearly as much as shunyata? If so, what is the criteria for choosing emptiness?
I believe that Parmenides' thesis could be understood through Dolpopa's logic of other-emptiness. Sethian Gnostic was close to some Vajrayana, while focus on luminosity practice, like Clear Light practice of Vajrayana.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:16 am You believe a buddha wouldn't be able to help you understand the meaning of emptiness?
If Cāndrakīrti's depiction was correct, which it isn't.
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:22 pm Tell me you have not understood one word of Candra without telling me you have not understood one word of Candra.
Great! So if I'm wrong on all accounts, as you imply, then you should easily be able to provide me with plentiful quotes from Cāndrakīrti's corpus where he: (a) clearly describes the Buddhas' experience of jñana and offers a coherent account of how this experience affords Buddhas the (b) ability and (c) motivation to help/teach other beings when they are defined as not having a mind or the ability to perceive conventional reality. Of course, I already mentioned the verses where he stumbles through these issues with vague unsatisfactory metaphors of potters wheels, wish-fulfilling gems, etc. so you'll have to find something better than these verses. And I'd of course love to see all the Indian commentators who took him seriously, aside from Jayānanda, who I already mentioned. Anybody in his lifetime comment on his work? Anybody a decade after? A century, two centuries, after?
Malcolm
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:16 pm And I'd of course love to see all the Indian commentators who took him seriously, aside from Jayānanda, who I already mentioned. Anybody in his lifetime comment on his work? Anybody a decade after? A century, two centuries, after?
Atisha took Candra very seriously.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by MiphamFan »

https://buddhanature.tsadra.org/index.p ... Buddhology

@stong zugs

Maybe reading this would be helpful. Almogi interprets Rongzom, as understanding that Buddhas have no jnana at all. Buddhas have no cognitive processes on their side, even though there is the appearance of such on the part of sentient beings. This seems to be the general understanding amongst Indian Madhyamikas.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by muni »

Textual wisdom is one thing, living experience of realization is another.

You believe a buddha wouldn't be able to help you understand the meaning of emptiness?

Buddha could, perhaps by helping to realize the apprehended habitual idea what we think we are is idea.

* = Emptiness-Appearances = *

The two truths were never separate, even our approach may be first conventional but that is of course not sufficient.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

MiphamFan wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2023 5:09 am Almogi interprets Rongzom, as understanding that Buddhas have no jnana at all.
Thanks for sharing! Looks like a neat read.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:27 pm Atisha took Candra very seriously.
And how many centuries after Cāndrakīrti was Atisha? I don't know why you won't just concede the fact that Cāndrakīrti was not taken seriously in India for centuries after his death and that the prominence the rangtongpas ascribe to him is largely a byproduct of Tibetan polemics and politics.

And, yes, still waiting on those plentiful quotes from Cāndrakīrti that patch the gaping holes in his views...
stong gzugs wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:16 pm Great! So if I'm wrong on all accounts, as you imply, then you should easily be able to provide me with plentiful quotes from Cāndrakīrti's corpus where he: (a) clearly describes the Buddhas' experience of jñana and offers a coherent account of how this experience affords Buddhas the (b) ability and (c) motivation to help/teach other beings when they are defined as not having a mind or the ability to perceive conventional reality. Of course, I already mentioned the verses where he stumbles through these issues with vague unsatisfactory metaphors of potters wheels, wish-fulfilling gems, etc. so you'll have to find something better than these verses. And I'd of course love to see all the Indian commentators who took him seriously, aside from Jayānanda, who I already mentioned. Anybody in his lifetime comment on his work? Anybody a decade after? A century, two centuries, after?
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