Nirvana with and without remainder

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ThreeVows
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Nirvana with and without remainder

Post by ThreeVows »

This may seem like a Theravada question, and in many ways it is, but it's not limited to Theravada so I feel it's appropriate enough to ask.

The general orthodoxy seems to be that Nirvana with remainder is when an arhat is still alive, and then nirvana without remainder is when the arhat dies.

My question is, are there scriptural citations in either theravada or mahayana texts (not commentary, specifically sutras) that explicitly says this? Or is it simply the orthodox understanding?

I ask in part because in the Pali Canon for instance it says,
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
This doesn't seem to explicitly say what was stated above, to my eyes, at least not definitively. It actually even says 'here in this very life', which could be read to imply that it is specifically NOT after death of the body.

In my opinion, there are various sort of 'standard' or 'orthodox' interpretations within Theravada that I find suspect, and I am wondering if perhaps this is one of them, but my scholarship is paltry. I appreciate any input. Again, for clarity, I am specifically asking for scriptural citations, I am not interested in orthodoxy, commentary, etc by and large, although I suppose if there are no good scriptural citations then commentary would be alright to take into account. Thank you.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Aemilius
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Re: Nirvana with and without remainder

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"Moreover, it is on the Gṛdhrakūṭaparvata that the sthavira Mo ho kia chö (Mahākāśyapa) compiled the three baskets of the Dharma (dharmapiṭaka). When he had saved the beings who could be saved, he wanted, like the Buddha, to enter nirvāṇa. In early morning (pūrvāhṇa), having taken his bowl and his cloak (patracīvaram ādāya), he entered Rājagṛha to beg (rājagṛhaṃ piṇḍāya prāvikisat). Then he ascended Gṛdhrakūṭaparvata and said to his disciples; “Today I will enter nirvāṇa-without-residue (nirupadhiśeṣanirvāṇa).” Having spoken thus, he enterd his house and, seated cross-legged (paryaṇkam ābhujya), he perfumed his body with pure absorptions (anāsravasamāpatti). The disciples of Mahākāśyapa entered Rājagṛha and said to the officials: “Do you know that the sthavira Mahākāśyapa has today entered into nirupadhiśeṣanirvāṇa?” At these words, all the officials felt very sad. They said: “The Buddha has already disappeared (niruddha) and now Mahākāśyapa who protected (pālayati) the Buddhadharma also wants to enter nirupadhiśeṣanirvāṇa!” At twilight, officials and bhikṣus met at the Gṛdhrakūṭaparvata. That same night, the sthavira Mahākāśyapa came out of his concentration (samāpatter vyutthāya), entered the assembly and sat down.

He praised impermanence (anityatā):

“All conditioned dharmas (saṃskṛtadharma), the results of causes and conditions (pratītyasamutpānna), are impermanent; non-existent yesterday, existent today, tomorrow they return to non-existence; therefore they are impermanent. Being impermanent, they are suffering (duḥkha). Being suffering, they are without substance (anātmaka). As they are without substance, the sage (paṇḍita) should not be attached (abhiniviśate) to ‘me’ and ‘mine’ (ādymātmīya). If he is attached to ‘me’ and ‘mine’, he experiences immense sadness and suffering. The mind (citta) should experience disgust (saṃvega) in the presence of all the universes (loka) and seek renunciation (vairāgya).”

Proclaiming in every way the suffering at the heart of the universes (lokadhātu), he freed his mind in order to enter into nirvāṇa. When he had finished preaching, he put on the robe (saṃghātī) that he had received from the Buddha once more and, taking his robe (cīvara), his bowl (pātra) and his staff (daṇḍa), he rose up into space like the golden-winged bird (garuḍa), [assumed] the four bodily postures (kāyeryāpatha); seated, lying down, walking and standing. In his one body there appeared innumerable bodies that filled the universes of the east, then these innumerable bodies became one single body again. From the upper part of his body there came forth fire (agni), while from the lower part there came forth water (udaka); then from the upper part there came forth water, while from the lower part there came forth fire. And he repeated the same phenomenon in the directions of the south, the west and the north. The community felt disgust for the world (lokasaṃvega) and all its members rejoiced. Then Mahākāśyapa with his robe, his bowl and his staff made the following vow on the summit of Gṛdhrakūṭaparvata: “I wish that my body will not rot." "

commentary on the Pancavimsatisahasrika Prajnaparamita https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25046.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: Nirvana with and without remainder

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The Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra, Chapter Four, LXXX

"Mahāmati, at the eighth stage there is Nirvana for the Śrāvakas and Pratyekabuddhas and Bodhisattvas; but the Bodhisattvas are kept away by the power of all the Buddha from [being intoxicated by] the bliss of the Samādhi, and thereby they will not enter into Nirvana. When the stage of Tathagatahood is not fulfilled there would be the cessation of all doings, and if [the Bodhisattvas] were not supported [by the Buddhas] the Tathagata-family would become extinct. Therefore, the Buddhas, the Blessed Ones, point out the virtues of Buddhahood which are beyond conception. Therefore, [the Bodhisattvas] do not enter into Nirvana, but the Śrāvakas and Pratyekabuddhas, engrossed in the bliss of the Samādhis, therein cherish the thought of Nirvana."

"Further, Mahāmati, the Śrāvakas and Pratyekabuddhas at the eighth stage of Bodhisattvahood are so intoxicated with the happiness that comes from the attainment of perfect tranquillisation, and, failing to understand fully that there is nothing in the world but what is seen of the Mind itself, they are thus unable to overcome the hindrances and habit-energy growing out of their notions of generality and individuality; and adhering to the egolessness of persons and things and cherishing views arising therefrom, they have the discriminating idea and knowledge of Nirvana, which is not that of the truth of absolute solitude. Mahāmati, when the Bodhisattvas face and perceive the happiness of the Samādhi of perfect tranquillisation, they are moved with the feeling of love and sympathy owing to their original vows, and they become aware of the part they are to perform as regards the [ten] inexhaustible vows. Thus, they do not enter Nirvana. But the fact is that they are already in Nirvana because in them there is no rising of discrimination. With them the discrimination of grasped and grasping no more takes place; as they [now] recognise that there is nothing in the world but what is seen of the Mind itself, they have done away with the thought of discrimination concerning all things. They have abandoned adhering to and discriminating about such notions as the Citta, Manas, and Manovijñāna, and external objects, and self-nature; however, they have not given up the things promoting the cause of Buddhism; because of their attainment of the inner insight which belongs to the stage of Tathagatahood; whatever they do all issues from their transcendental knowledge."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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ThreeVows
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Re: Nirvana with and without remainder

Post by ThreeVows »

Aemilius wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:34 am Mahākāśyapa...
That's all interesting, thank you. Isn't the general idea that Mahākāśyapa is preserving certain things that will then be given to Maitreya in the future by him? That is despite him entering into nirupadhiśeṣanirvāṇa? In other words, it's not simply that his inert corpse won't decompose but that it will actually serve a function in the future?
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Aemilius
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Re: Nirvana with and without remainder

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Maha Prajnaparamita Sastra:

"When Mi lö (Maitreya) becomes Buddha, my skeleton (asthisaṃghāta) will reappear and with him I will save beings.” Having reflected in this way, he penetrated right into the rock forming the mountain summit as if entering soft mud; and after he had penetrated into it, the mountain closed up once more. In future generations, the human lifespan will be 84,000 years and a man’s height 80 feet. When the Buddha Maitreya comes, the height of the Buddha will be 160 feet, his face will measure 24 feet and his halo (vyomaka) will be 10 li. Then, when beings learn that the Buddha Maitreya has appeared in the world (prādurbhūta), all together will embrace the religious life (pravrajita) to follow the Buddha. When the Buddha will proclaim the Dharma in the assembly (saṃgha) for the first time, 99 prabhedas of human beings will attain the state of arhat and will be endowed (samanvāgata) with the six superknowledges (abhijñā); in the second great assembly, 96 prabhedas of human beings will attain the state of arhat; in the third there will be 93 prabhedas. These in turn will save innumerable men. At that time, people will often be lazy (kusīda) and the Buddha Maitreya, seeing men in that state, will strike Gṛdhrakūṭaparvata with his fingers; then the skeleton of Mahākāṣyapa, clothed in his saṃghati, will appear and prostrate at the feet of Maitreya, rise up into space and [once more] manifest the transformations (pariṇāma) described above. Then the disciples of Buddha Maitreya, full of astonishment, will ask: “Who is this man? We say ‘man’ but he is so tiny. He is dressed in monk’s robes and can accomplish the transformations.”

The Buddha Maitreya will reply:
“This man is a disciple of the past Buddha Śākyamuni. He is called Mahākāśyapa, He is the foremost of the bhikṣus who dwell in the forest (araṇyavāsin), who have no desire (alpeccha), are content [with little] (saṃtuṣṭa) and follow the strict observances (dhūtaguṇavādin). He is a great arhat who possesses the six superknowledges (abhijñā) and the deliverances (vimokṣa). During his time, the human lifespan was 100 years; births were rare and deaths were frequent. If, with his minuscule body, Mahākāśyapa was able to accomplish such great things, why do you not accomplish such miracles with your great bodies and your sharp faculties (tīkṣṇendriya)?”


Foot note: According to some sources, when the rock closed up over Kāśyapa, he at once entered into nirvāṇa (Mūlasarvāstivādin Vinaya, T 1451, k. 40, p. 409a; Legend of Aśoka, T 2042, K. 4, p. 115a; Vibhāṣā, T 1545, K. 135, p. 698b; Hiuan tsang, T 2087, k. 9, p. 910). – According to other sources, and the Mppś is one of these, Kāśyapa is merely slumbering or in nirodhasamāpatti and will enter nirvāṇa only after having given the Buddha’s robe back to Maitreya (Ekottarāgama, T 125, k. 44, p. 789a; T 456, p. 433b). (Gelongma Karma Migme Chödrön)

prabheda= 10 000
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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