When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

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Burnoutrecovery1976
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When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by Burnoutrecovery1976 »

Hey everyone.

A bit of background.

I have suffered a lot of trauma. To the point where I can watch "Carrie" and relate to what happened to her. I am sparing everyone the list I typed out but it is long.

I originally became Buddhist(via a center that was basically Gelug with the serial numbers filed off to be less sectarian) in 2002 after my second sexual assault basically changed my personality and, to be blunt, as a man in a conservative area of the US, the local mental health community didn't believe me(yes, I know, keep trying but eventually you run out of therapists).

Many years later I moved north and went around the various groups until I found the Dudjom Tersar.

I was a student of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche until he achieved Paranirvana. Though I respect his son he is not my teacher. At Rinpoche's request I accumulated the usual number of accumulations for a round of Ngondro(I've noticed that people get very touchy when you say you finished your Ngondro).

My time doing my Ngondro was one of the more intense periods of my life. That was when I spent a week in inpatient care and my third and final SA(I'm trying not to dwell but at the same time convey the seriousness). But, I was able to get the numbers in.

However, I think the combination of pushing to get the numbers on top of everything else broke something in me.

I don't want to practice as, though I'm sure it works for some people, it hasn't done anything for me for years. That isn't true. Sometimes I cry. Sometimes it makes me regret all of the things I did or didn't do to make me a nervous wreck. It doesn't make me more compassionate, happier, able to deal with things better, get me any closer to Enlightenment, etc.

I have a similar story for every aspect of my life(for example, I did enough 50 hour weeks in February that my February 2023 had an extra week in it by hours) and my therapist says I have a novel form of burnout that we are calling "everything everywhere all at once burnout" where I have burnout level experiences in multiple areas of life.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm asking here but let's start with this.

What do you do when the Dharma does the opposite of what it is supposed to do? If your answer is "don't practice", please give a bit more detail.

And if this is too much and has to get locked or deleted, that's OK. My story is an edge case and not exactly fun to read.
jet.urgyen
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by jet.urgyen »

Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pm Hey everyone.

A bit of background.

I have suffered a lot of trauma. To the point where I can watch "Carrie" and relate to what happened to her. I am sparing everyone the list I typed out but it is long.

I originally became Buddhist(via a center that was basically Gelug with the serial numbers filed off to be less sectarian) in 2002 after my second sexual assault basically changed my personality and, to be blunt, as a man in a conservative area of the US, the local mental health community didn't believe me(yes, I know, keep trying but eventually you run out of therapists).

Many years later I moved north and went around the various groups until I found the Dudjom Tersar.

I was a student of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche until he achieved Paranirvana. Though I respect his son he is not my teacher. At Rinpoche's request I accumulated the usual number of accumulations for a round of Ngondro(I've noticed that people get very touchy when you say you finished your Ngondro).

My time doing my Ngondro was one of the more intense periods of my life. That was when I spent a week in inpatient care and my third and final SA(I'm trying not to dwell but at the same time convey the seriousness). But, I was able to get the numbers in.

However, I think the combination of pushing to get the numbers on top of everything else broke something in me.

I don't want to practice as, though I'm sure it works for some people, it hasn't done anything for me for years. That isn't true. Sometimes I cry. Sometimes it makes me regret all of the things I did or didn't do to make me a nervous wreck. It doesn't make me more compassionate, happier, able to deal with things better, get me any closer to Enlightenment, etc.

I have a similar story for every aspect of my life(for example, I did enough 50 hour weeks in February that my February 2023 had an extra week in it by hours) and my therapist says I have a novel form of burnout that we are calling "everything everywhere all at once burnout" where I have burnout level experiences in multiple areas of life.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm asking here but let's start with this.

What do you do when the Dharma does the opposite of what it is supposed to do? If your answer is "don't practice", please give a bit more detail.

And if this is too much and has to get locked or deleted, that's OK. My story is an edge case and not exactly fun to read.
practices are not precisely for changing, are for understanding.

some things might change, one can become a more happier or cheerful person, more relaxed; or one can discover the bitter side of oneself that was hidden, or remember thing that happened and that one ignored, etc., but it is always byproduct of that understanding.

For example, i understood that poverty isn't the path for me, so i can enjoy my job and wealth now in a more relaxed way, and also don't chase it to much nor i don't reject it anymore. because of that understanding my life became more easier.

sometimes one doesn't want to practice, that can happen. even if is something you should talk to your teacher, i dare to say it's ok as long as one observe and try to know why one doesn't want to practice.
What do you do when the Dharma does the opposite of what it is supposed to do?
this is an opportunity for you to resolve it.

this is a free advice: look at it, try to resolve it with a common professional, a psicologist o psiquiatrist, because if one doesn't somehow "resolve" trauma then that haunts oneself. a lifetime can be wasted in repeating a hurtful memory. understand that whatever happened, it doesn't exists anymore.

take care of yourself.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Zhen Li
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by Zhen Li »

Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pmWhat do you do when the Dharma does the opposite of what it is supposed to do?
In my experience, I sought an alternative Dharma practice which works for me. There are a proverbial 84000 Dharma Doors, and each of them is not perfect for everyone in every situation, but suited to particular people with particular conditions. As much as shopping in the spiritual supermarket isn't looked upon as admirable, it can also be an important phase in finding the right practice for oneself.

This kind of practice where you add lots of tasks to your existing set of tasks... doesn't seem to me to be what you need.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pm I'm not exactly sure what I'm asking here but let's start with this.
I don’t think that everyone’s ‘ngondro needs’ are the same. Ngondro is a preliminary practice designed to help you work through all of your baggage so that you have a clean vessel for the Vajrayana practices that come next (or that you may be doing now). It’s like cleaning your plate before a meal so that it doesn’t still have bits of yesterday’s lunch still stuck to it.

Some people can just rinse stuff off. For others, a lot of scrubbing is needed. Either way, there’s no way around the simple, blunt fact that at some point you need to just let all that stuff go. I think facing that is the biggest challenge.

Obviously that’s not an easy task. I’m not stupidly saying “oh just get over it”, which would be a
Statement both cruel and ignorant.

I’m just saying that ultimately that’s what people need to do, and there’s no other way around it. Whether it’s from the help of psychiatry or Buddhism or whatever doesn’t matter. Buddhism is really not so much about ‘self help’ as it is about liberation from samsara, but that’s another issue.

But whatever your needs are, I think keeping that goal in mind is most important. In simple shamatha mediation, when thoughts arise, you see them and go back to the job of watching the breath. You don’t dwell on them. You come back to the present moment, ‘where you always have been’.

This forms the basis for letting go of emotional baggage that you don’t need anymore. When you let go of it, then it’s workable. It can become the foundation for your own realization. But it’s difficult, because that baggage is one’s history. It’s the identity that one has built oneself around. “My life story” and so on. The past may always leave scars, but they no longer need to be wounds.

You have to be deadly honest with yourself too. After starting ngondro, after 11,000 prostrations, I realized I was just totally pretending, that I felt no connection whatsoever to that practice, and it was just piling on more self-grasping for me. I was doing it because everybody else in the sangha was doing it and I thought it was what I was “supposed to do”. But I’ve never done what I was supposed to do (which is sometimes good and sometimes not so good) and I’ve learned to live with that, and I stopped banging my head on the floor. So, be honest with who you “really are” underneath all that trauma.

Anyway, I’m only sharing what I’ve learned for me, from my own experience. Maybe it will help you and maybe not. All I know is, the less I hold onto stuff, the freer I get.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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It'sYa1UPBoy
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by It'sYa1UPBoy »

It's a slightly different case than yours, but I have various health issues that I'm having to cope with, and when I know that pushing myself to pray or read or try to meditate (it's pretty hard for me to try to meditate because of brain fog and lack of teachers accessible to me) would make me feel worse, I just...don't. In those periods, the most I do is change out the flowers on the altar if they're wilted (which I'd do anyways), water the bamboo plant if it needs it (which I'd do anyways), and nod to the statues when I pick up my laptop nearby. I find that trying to apply the methods of emotional development in my daily life helps me more than rote ritual--- and I do have a ritual book that I use when I'm feeling well. Especially because of your traumatic experiences, I would advise you to put more focus on internal growth, probably in tandem with your therapist as well as through religious practice, if you're feeling burnt out from ritual practice. Of course, I'm also not of a Tibetan Vajrayana practice, so I can't really give a very detailed recommendation because I don't know a whole lot about the specifics of those schools.

In gassho,

:anjali:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Dharma practice causes ripening of all kinds of circumstances, many of which are not necessarily pleasant.

So, my take is that one should not expect a peaceful life from Dharma practice, because there is really no such thing in samsara. Rather, hopefully we can work better with our circumstances and gently bend them towards better possibilities for ourselves and others, in terms of external circumstances.

As one of my Dharma friends always says though, the world is an emergency room, and we shouldn’t expect anything else from it.

One Lojong instruction is to remind oneself that difficult circumstances don’t actually have some deep meaning to figure out, rather they are simply the nature of samsara.

Our own circumstances are unique in one sense because they are ours, and we are all at the center of our own ‘mandala of samsara’, but on a larger scale there’s no message there, it’s just ignorance, etc. in operation, not a puzzle.

So, my two cents is not necessarily to look at the external circumstances of your life to evaluate your practice, or what practice to do, but to look right at your mind, and work with that.

Subjectively, just doing uncommon Ngondro seems like an inflexible approach to me, and given all that you’ve said, it’s probably worth exploring other practices too, concurrent with making contact with a teacher you trust.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Meggo
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by Meggo »

Maybe try going for a more classical theravada route? Read through the book "The Mind Illuminated" by Culadasa and try achieving the Jhanas. They will increase your psychological wellbeing quite substantually.
Also take a look at "Mastering the Core teachings of the Buddha" by Daniel Ingram, you can download it for free at the authors website.
It is based on Mahasi Sayadaws type of vipassana (noting meditation), which will lead you through so called insight stages, which are very well described in the book. Being aware of those stages while you practice will give you a feeling of control over your meditation progress so you don't feel so lost anymore.
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It'sYa1UPBoy
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by It'sYa1UPBoy »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:23 pm One Lojong instruction is to remind oneself that difficult circumstances don’t actually have some deep meaning to figure out, rather they are simply the nature of samsara.

Our own circumstances are unique in one sense because they are ours, and we are all at the center of our own ‘mandala of samsara’, but on a larger scale there’s no message there, it’s just ignorance, etc. in operation, not a puzzle.
This is something I really appreciate being said. I come from a very Christian culture where every difficulty in life is a sign from God, or a punishment from God, or a gift from God... Even if I know logically that there's no "purpose" to my pain and suffering, it's good to remind myself of it every so often.
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by Moha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:23 pm Dharma practice causes ripening of all kinds of circumstances, many of which are not necessarily pleasant.

So, my take is that one should not expect a peaceful life from Dharma practice, because there is really no such thing in samsara. Rather, hopefully we can work better with our circumstances and gently bend them towards better possibilities for ourselves and others, in terms of external circumstances.
:good:

This has been my experience as well.
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Re: When dharma-practice results in the opposite of what was expected

Post by Miorita »

Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pm Hey everyone.

... in 2002 after my second sexual assault basically changed my personality
Hi!
I place #1 for this statement of yours above.
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pm I was a student of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche until he achieved Paranirvana. Though I respect his son he is not my teacher.
#2
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pm At Rinpoche's request I accumulated the usual number of accumulations for a round of Ngondro.
#3
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pmMy time doing my Ngondro was one of the more intense periods of my life. That was when I spent a week in inpatient care and my third and final SA(I'm trying not to dwell but at the same time convey the seriousness). But, I was able to get the numbers in.
#4
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pm However, I think the combination of pushing to get the numbers
#5
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pmon top of everything else broke something in me.
#6
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pmit hasn't done anything for me for years." That isn't true. Sometimes I cry. Sometimes it makes me regret all of the things I did or didn't do to make me a nervous wreck. It doesn't make me more compassionate, happier, able to deal with things better, get me any closer to Enlightenment, etc.
#7
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pmI have a similar story for every aspect of my life(for example, I did enough 50 hour weeks in February that my February 2023 had an extra week in it by hours) and my therapist says I have a novel form of burnout that we are calling "everything everywhere all at once burnout" where I have burnout level experiences in multiple areas of life.
#8
Burnoutrecovery1976 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pmI'm not exactly sure what I'm asking here but let's start with this.

What do you do when the Dharma does the opposite of what it is supposed to do?
You find the cause.
Look at # 1-8 ! They all convey meaning.
Your work is with yourself to overcome, eliminate, minimize the impact of these causes. Find solutions to each and create conditions for happiness!
Observe, ground yourself, relax, delegate, eliminate clutter! Take care of things for you and see them through to the end!
Better scheduling, keep boundaries, learn to say "No!"!
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