The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:59 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:17 pm Well if you generate it, that is a development stage. If you just think it always been there, that is just a thought.
If you visualize your fleshy heart, as a method to recollect its presence and function, have you generated it or merely recollected that which has been there but simply can’t be seen with your eyes?
I left this discussion a while ago.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:13 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:59 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:17 pm Well if you generate it, that is a development stage. If you just think it always been there, that is just a thought.
If you visualize your fleshy heart, as a method to recollect its presence and function, have you generated it or merely recollected that which has been there but simply can’t be seen with your eyes?
I left this discussion a while ago.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by muni »

To relax means to have no concepts. It does not mean that you become like a stone , or that you are without consciousness. You are present and aware of everything , but you are not making judgements. In that moment you are beyond time and space. This is the state of Ati Guru Yoga. Then, at some point, maybe you think “Am I relaxed or not?” Or maybe some other thought arises in your mind. At that moment you do not do anything, you just relax with that thought. You do not follow it, nor do you try to block it. You try to continue in that state as much as possible.

This is what it means to work with the transmission, which is like an electrical current that is indispensable to turn on that inner light. If the power is off, the light does not come on. The practice of Guru Yoga is the essence of all transmissions.

You are not always aware of that inner light that you experienced during or after receiving direct transmission from the teacher. But if you discovered your real condition, you have what is called the Base. This is the first step. Of course, just that first experience is not enough , we should try to have it more often, becoming familiar with it , until one day we will be in that state all the time. How do we do that? First of all, we can practice meditation.

When we say “I do meditation”, it is always a concept. There is something on which to meditate. But in the Dzogchen teaching, we do not apply meditation in a conceptual way. We just train ourselves to be in our real nature: we sit comfortably in a quiet place, do Guru Yoga and rest in that state. When you try and be in that state day after day, you become more familiar with it. in this way, you become more and more free. When you are in that state always, day and night, you are completely free from transmigration in samsara. This is called enlightenment, or realization. We are no longer slaves to our emotions and dualistic condition: This is how we should apply the teaching.

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Lingpupa »

Or you can just practice
Image
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Lingpupa »

Not to flog a dead horse, but whereas it's obvious that an approach to the essential practices of dzogchen might typically start by establishing the view, and doing THAT through shamatha, vipassana and their unification, there really do seem to be a few people who assert the possibility of jumping directly into trekcho and thogal without preliminary sadhana and the like. But having given enough time for someone to provide
references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana,
there has been nothing but an assertion that my estimate (i.e. that sadhana-free dzogchen doesn't get a lot of credence outside certain corners of the internet) is a mis-estimate, and a claim that they somehow must be there somewhere.

What's now more than clear, even if some are found at this stage, that such practioners are rare as garudas' teeth. My curiosity is satisfied.
All best wishes

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Lingpupa wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:53 pm Not to flog a dead horse, but whereas it's obvious that an approach to the essential practices of dzogchen might typically start by establishing the view, and doing THAT through shamatha, vipassana and their unification, there really do seem to be a few people who assert the possibility of jumping directly into trekcho and thogal without preliminary sadhana and the like. But having given enough time for someone to provide
references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana,
there has been nothing but an assertion that my estimate (i.e. that sadhana-free dzogchen doesn't get a lot of credence outside certain corners of the internet) is a mis-estimate, and a claim that they somehow must be there somewhere.

What's now more than clear, even if some are found at this stage, that such practioners are rare as garudas' teeth. My curiosity is satisfied.
To play devils advocate here, we could easily put this down to Tibetan religious culture generally, rather than the two stages being necessities for Dzogchen.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Jules 09 »

muni wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:03 am
To relax means to have no concepts. It does not mean that you become like a stone , or that you are without consciousness. You are present and aware of everything , but you are not making judgements. In that moment you are beyond time and space. This is the state of Ati Guru Yoga. Then, at some point, maybe you think “Am I relaxed or not?” Or maybe some other thought arises in your mind. At that moment you do not do anything, you just relax with that thought. You do not follow it, nor do you try to block it. You try to continue in that state as much as possible.

This is what it means to work with the transmission, which is like an electrical current that is indispensable to turn on that inner light. If the power is off, the light does not come on. The practice of Guru Yoga is the essence of all transmissions.

You are not always aware of that inner light that you experienced during or after receiving direct transmission from the teacher. But if you discovered your real condition, you have what is called the Base. This is the first step. Of course, just that first experience is not enough , we should try to have it more often, becoming familiar with it , until one day we will be in that state all the time. How do we do that? First of all, we can practice meditation.

When we say “I do meditation”, it is always a concept. There is something on which to meditate. But in the Dzogchen teaching, we do not apply meditation in a conceptual way. We just train ourselves to be in our real nature: we sit comfortably in a quiet place, do Guru Yoga and rest in that state. When you try and be in that state day after day, you become more familiar with it. in this way, you become more and more free.

When you are in that state always, day and night, you are completely free from transmigration in samsara. This is called enlightenment, or realization. We are no longer slaves to our emotions and dualistic condition: This is how we should apply the teaching.

- Starting the Evolution


_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
To relax means to have no concepts. It does not mean that you become like a stone , or that you are without consciousness. You are present and aware of everything , but you are not making judgements. In that moment you are beyond time and space. This is the state of Ati Guru Yoga...

You are not always aware of that inner light that you experienced during or after receiving direct transmission from the teacher. But if you discovered your real condition, you have what is called the Base. This is the first step. Of course, just that first experience is not enough, we should try to have it more often, becoming familiar with it, until one day we will
be in that state all the time. How do we do that? First of all, we can practice meditation.

When we say “I do meditation”, it is always a concept. There is something on which to meditate. But in the Dzogchen teaching, we do not apply meditation in a conceptual way. We just train ourselves to be in our real nature: we sit comfortably in a quiet place, do Guru Yoga and rest in that state. When you try and be in that state day after day, you become more familiar with it. in this way, you become more and more free.

When you are in that state always, day and night, you are completely free from transmigration in samsara. This is called enlightenment, or realization. We are no longer slaves to our emotions and dualistic condition: This is how we should apply the teaching.
Different masters, different words - but the meaning is the same:
According to the tradition of pith instructions, the ultimate attainment, the unexcelled realization of Samantabhadra, can be pointed out right now in the gap between two thoughts. It is pointed out by a master as
nonconceptual wakefulness, the naked state of dharmakaya [rigpa].

Through this pointing-out instruction, we can personally recognize, exactly as it is, the innate state present in ourselves as our nature. By training in this recognition, it can become unbroken and continue throughout day and night.


Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche,
from the Foreword to the book 'Rainbow Painting' by Tulku Urgyen.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:53 pm Not to flog a dead horse, but whereas it's obvious that an approach to the essential practices of dzogchen might typically start by establishing the view, and doing THAT through shamatha, vipassana and their unification, there really do seem to be a few people who assert the possibility of jumping directly into trekcho and thogal without preliminary sadhana and the like. But having given enough time for someone to provide
references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana,
there has been nothing but an assertion that my estimate (i.e. that sadhana-free dzogchen doesn't get a lot of credence outside certain corners of the internet) is a mis-estimate, and a claim that they somehow must be there somewhere.

What's now more than clear, even if some are found at this stage, that such practioners are rare as garudas' teeth. My curiosity is satisfied.
:zzz: :zzz:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by PeterC »

Lingpupa wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:53 pm Not to flog a dead horse, but whereas it's obvious that an approach to the essential practices of dzogchen might typically start by establishing the view, and doing THAT through shamatha, vipassana and their unification, there really do seem to be a few people who assert the possibility of jumping directly into trekcho and thogal without preliminary sadhana and the like. But having given enough time for someone to provide
references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana,
there has been nothing but an assertion that my estimate (i.e. that sadhana-free dzogchen doesn't get a lot of credence outside certain corners of the internet) is a mis-estimate, and a claim that they somehow must be there somewhere.

What's now more than clear, even if some are found at this stage, that such practioners are rare as garudas' teeth. My curiosity is satisfied.
So, a living/recent master. Dzogchen is barely into its first generation in the west, so we’re talking about Tibetans, and that would mean people who have gone through a traditional tibetan education. How many of those do you think would, when they were young, have been able to opt out of doing lots of sadhanas?

There are of course stories of recent practitioners that fit this profile, like ChNNr’s teacher Changchub Dorje and his students, but these are not high-profile people. And of course that is the second adverse selection issue - who do we get to hear of as famous masters? Typically people who come from an established power base, such as the Derge military-theocratic complex.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:21 am
So, a living/recent master. Dzogchen is barely into its first generation in the west, so we’re talking about Tibetans, and that would mean people who have gone through a traditional tibetan education. How many of those do you think would, when they were young, have been able to opt out of doing lots of sadhanas?

There are of course stories of recent practitioners that fit this profile, like ChNNr’s teacher Changchub Dorje and his students, but these are not high-profile people. And of course that is the second adverse selection issue - who do we get to hear of as famous masters? Typically people who come from an established power base, such as the Derge military-theocratic complex.
I am quite curious, but how do you know what Changchub Dorje practiced before appearing in that valley 70 or so years ago before ChNNR met him? As far as I am aware nobody knew much about him, much less his practice.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:21 am
Lingpupa wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:53 pm ...
What's now more than clear, even if some are found at this stage, that such practitioners are rare as garudas' teeth. My curiosity is satisfied.
:zzz: :zzz:
You underline my point succinctly. But I think I really will leave the playground.
All best wishes

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:00 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:21 am
So, a living/recent master. Dzogchen is barely into its first generation in the west, so we’re talking about Tibetans, and that would mean people who have gone through a traditional tibetan education. How many of those do you think would, when they were young, have been able to opt out of doing lots of sadhanas?

There are of course stories of recent practitioners that fit this profile, like ChNNr’s teacher Changchub Dorje and his students, but these are not high-profile people. And of course that is the second adverse selection issue - who do we get to hear of as famous masters? Typically people who come from an established power base, such as the Derge military-theocratic complex.
I am quite curious, but how do you know what Changchub Dorje practiced before appearing in that valley 70 or so years ago before ChNNR met him? As far as I am aware nobody knew much about him, much less his practice.
https://melong.com/our-masters-masters- ... hub-dorje/
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

yagmort wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:56 am even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
In the Lama Yangtik there is three roots practices and 4 guruyoga practices and protectors.
In the Khandro Yangtik there is a lot more sadhanas.....
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by ject »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:00 am I am quite curious, but how do you know what Changchub Dorje practiced before appearing in that valley 70 or so years ago before ChNNR met him? As far as I am aware nobody knew much about him, much less his practice.
From the "Guruyoga" by Namkhai Norbu:
Despite his ordinary lifestyle, Changchub Dorje was a most extraordinary man. When he first came to the region where his Gar later came into being, he was already old, and whenever people asked him how old he was he always said seventy. When I met him in 1955, sixty years after his arrival in that region, he still said the same thing.
About samatha (zhi-gnas) from "The Cycle of Day and Night" by Namkhai Norbu. I have not finished it so...

Here is the quote:
Zhi-gnas (samatha) is a calm state where discursive thoughts are not present; however this condition is not what is meant by contemplation itself. Zhi-gnas is only an experience of calmness. When thoughts arise, this is the experience of the movement of thoughts. The state of pure presence is neither this calm nor this movement, but it is the presence which is found in either of these states.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:56 am even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
One must make a distinction between practicing deity yoga as a complete path as opposed to using deity yoga for temporary benefits, like removing obstacles, life extension, and so on. One can use the two stages as a complete path, however that is not the path of Dzogchen proper.

The distinction is between employing sems as the path or ye shes as the path. The former is based on concepts, the latter is based direct perception.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:04 pm
yagmort wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:56 am even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
One must make a distinction between practicing deity yoga as a complete path as opposed to using deity yoga for temporary benefits, like removing obstacles, life extension, and so on. One can use the two stages as a complete path, however that is not the path of Dzogchen proper.

The distinction is between employing sems as the path or ye shes as the path. The former is based on concepts, the latter is based direct perception.
So Vimalamitra WAS practicing Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya, but he wasn't REALLY practicing them, so it doesn't count?

Philosophy 101, anyone?
All best wishes

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Archie2009 »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:04 pm
yagmort wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:56 am even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
One must make a distinction between practicing deity yoga as a complete path as opposed to using deity yoga for temporary benefits, like removing obstacles, life extension, and so on. One can use the two stages as a complete path, however that is not the path of Dzogchen proper.

The distinction is between employing sems as the path or ye shes as the path. The former is based on concepts, the latter is based direct perception.
So Vimalamitra WAS practicing Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya, but he wasn't REALLY practicing them, so it doesn't count?

Philosophy 101, anyone?
This whole thing is a bit too much like forcing one's own limitations on other people, particularly newcomers.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Tata1 »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:04 pm
yagmort wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:56 am even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
One must make a distinction between practicing deity yoga as a complete path as opposed to using deity yoga for temporary benefits, like removing obstacles, life extension, and so on. One can use the two stages as a complete path, however that is not the path of Dzogchen proper.

The distinction is between employing sems as the path or ye shes as the path. The former is based on concepts, the latter is based direct perception.
So Vimalamitra WAS practicing Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya, but he wasn't REALLY practicing them, so it doesn't count?

Philosophy 101, anyone?
I really dont get what you dont understand about what malcom posted. Can you explain yourself?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by MiphamFan »

I think the point isn't really that this or that master or practitioner did or didn't learn sutra, tantra, or other practices before they do Dzogchen.

The point is that Dzogchen as a path does not depend on those other practices.

I never really listened to much of Lama Lena's teachings, but yesterday she was telling a story of how her lama asked her to do a Dzogchen retreat as her very first solo retreat. She ran into some obstacles, then he told her, okay, maybe you are really not ready for Dzogchen right now, try doing Vajrakila instead. She then had some results with Vajrakila. IIRC, she said she actually never seriously did a sadhana practice before that.

I believe she was talking about Lama Wangdor.

So it might not be very common, but there are indeed traditional Tibetan teachers besides Chogyal Namkhai Norbu who did encourage their students to try practising Dzogchen right from the beginning, and then use the methods of transformation for supplementary practices.
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