The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

stong gzugs
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stong gzugs »

Terma wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:01 am As a side note, according to the A-Khrid Dzogchen tradition, this equipoise is essentially the merging of the emptiness of external space/appearance with the internal emptiness of one's awareness, thus cutting the mind off from any duality. In this system, this is what they refer to as "resting in great equipoise."
Interesting! So the equipoise of lhaktong is described as basically mixing the twofold spaces instead of the threefold spaces? If so, that's an elegant way to think about what it does and where it falls short.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Terma »

stong gzugs wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 4:26 am
Terma wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:01 am As a side note, according to the A-Khrid Dzogchen tradition, this equipoise is essentially the merging of the emptiness of external space/appearance with the internal emptiness of one's awareness, thus cutting the mind off from any duality. In this system, this is what they refer to as "resting in great equipoise."
Interesting! So the equipoise of lhaktong is described as basically mixing the twofold spaces instead of the threefold spaces? If so, that's an elegant way to think about what it does and where it falls short.
I think as a result of merging the outer and inner, the secret space is also mixed. I guess you can say by mixing the two one is able to recognise nature of mind/rigpa.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:21 am
Lingpupa wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 5:19 pm. But DI is, even so, not the be-all and end-all of transmission.
Of course it is, it’s present in every major empowerment and blessing. Without it, the example wisdom cannot be induced in the student. What else do you think the fourth empowerment is?

The special point of view of the Dzogchen tradition is that the three lower empowerments are unnecessary, the fourth empowerment alone is sufficient for ripening the student. The four Dzogchen empowerments-elaborate through very unelaborate-are in fact elaborations of the fourth empowerment.

What we call “direct introduction” is just the most simple way of conferring the word empowerment.

There is also something similar in the Kagyu Mahamudra tradition.
A perfectly sound answer imho, and largely my point from a different angle. What I refer to as the "fetishization of DI" is the suggestion that only those (including myself, as it happens, not that I counted myself as a particular student of NNR, just grateful for the experience and the teaching) who received "DI" in the form done by NNR from himself, or nowadays his son I suppose, can understand or practice dzogchen. When I said that DI is not the be all and end all, I did not mean to denigrate pointing out instructions or empowerments in general, but was referring to the exclusivist understanding of "DI" as something unique to the DC and NNR's transmission.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

stong gzugs wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:26 am The whole innovation of vipassana practice is claiming that you can gain insight into the three marks of existence without first cultivating serious śamatha. Vipassana practice is not a glorified form of śamatha, but is rather a method explicitly designed to bypass śamatha, which became particularly useful in the political context of combating Western colonialism in Burma and Thailand, among other places in SE Asia.
Those supporters of dry insight meditation even took it further, they claim that its possible to achieve Arahanthood without cultivating dhyana. The subsequent debates and movement almost causing a split in Theravadin communities.
Terma wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:01 am
As a side note, according to the A-Khrid Dzogchen tradition, this equipoise is essentially the merging of the emptiness of external space/appearance with the internal emptiness of one's awareness, thus cutting the mind off from any duality. In this system, this is what they refer to as "resting in great equipoise."
Sounds to me like another way of explaining/defining emptiness of object & emptiness of subject.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:16 pm
merilingpa wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:07 pm Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred of them.................
And that's what they are. Secondary. Not the primary practice.
Well, they are but I think they are important for most people and somewhat downplayed in this forum sometimes. The secondary practices are underestimated and needed to get better at recognizing and staying in rigpa for most people I think. You could ofcourse also be in rigpa while reciting mantras for short moments of time. So they can become in this way a primary practice with some secondary features. :smile:
And I think its not so easy to stay in rigpa for a long time. Its about seconds or split seconds, not just sounding Ah and walking off and talking to friends and making coffee and thinking that you are in rigpa while doing it.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:37 am A perfectly sound answer imho, and largely my point from a different angle. What I refer to as the "fetishization of DI" is the suggestion that only those (including myself, as it happens, not that I counted myself as a particular student of NNR, just grateful for the experience and the teaching) who received "DI" in the form done by NNR from himself, or nowadays his son I suppose, can understand or practice dzogchen. When I said that DI is not the be all and end all, I did not mean to denigrate pointing out instructions or empowerments in general, but was referring to the exclusivist understanding of "DI" as something unique to the DC and NNR's transmission.
Where did anyone say this?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:37 am but was referring to the exclusivist understanding of "DI" as something unique to the DC and NNR's transmission.
I have never advanced such an idea.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

merilingpa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:04 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:16 pm
merilingpa wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:07 pm Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred of them.................
And that's what they are. Secondary. Not the primary practice.
Well, they are but I think they are important for most people and somewhat downplayed in this forum sometimes. The secondary practices are underestimated and needed to get better at recognizing and staying in rigpa for most people I think.


If you think you need, that’s up to you. It’s not up to you to decide for others. The method we use in the DC for maintaining instant presence is Song of Vajra.

You could ofcourse also be in rigpa while reciting mantras for short moments of time.(quote]

We use SOV, and number of other Dzogchen mantras that have nothing to do with creation and completion.


So they can become in this way a primary practice with some secondary features. :smile:
And I think its not so easy to stay in rigpa for a long time. Its about seconds or split seconds, not just sounding Ah and walking off and talking to friends and making coffee and thinking that you are in rigpa while doing it.
If you think you cannot be in a state of trekcho while walking , talking, and making coffee, you have not really understood CHNN teachings. One does not “think” one is in instant presence. One uses mindfulness and attention to support instant presence.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stong gzugs »

Kai lord wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:03 am Those supporters of dry insight meditation even took it further, they claim that its possible to achieve Arahanthood without cultivating dhyana. The subsequent debates and movement almost causing a split in Theravadin communities.
Yes, agreed entirely! This is why I said that it is factually false to describe vipassana practice as a glorified form of śamatha. It just misrepresents what is actually happening during that practice and how that practice developed historically, which are fascinating stories. I don't practice vipassana, but I like it much better after seeing how it helped combat colonialism.
Terma wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:58 am I think as a result of merging the outer and inner, the secret space is also mixed. I guess you can say by mixing the two one is able to recognise nature of mind/rigpa.
Interesting! As an add on, Tulku Urgyen talks about people who practice without having recognized rigpa as mingling only two spaces, rather than three, so I think it's not necessarily the case that mingling the outer and inner will itself lead to recognition of rigpa or to awakened equipoise.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:16 pm
merilingpa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:04 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:16 pm

And that's what they are. Secondary. Not the primary practice.
Well, they are but I think they are important for most people and somewhat downplayed in this forum sometimes. The secondary practices are underestimated and needed to get better at recognizing and staying in rigpa for most people I think.


If you think you need, that’s up to you. It’s not up to you to decide for others. The method we use in the DC for maintaining instant presence is Song of Vajra.

You could ofcourse also be in rigpa while reciting mantras for short moments of time.(quote]

We use SOV, and number of other Dzogchen mantras that have nothing to do with creation and completion.


So they can become in this way a primary practice with some secondary features. :smile:
And I think its not so easy to stay in rigpa for a long time. Its about seconds or split seconds, not just sounding Ah and walking off and talking to friends and making coffee and thinking that you are in rigpa while doing it.
If you think you cannot be in a state of trekcho while walking , talking, and making coffee, you have not really understood CHNN teachings. One does not “think” one is in instant presence. One uses mindfulness and attention to support instant presence.
My point here is that I think it is very difficult to walk around, talking and making coffee and also be in a state of trekchö. We are all aiming for that ofcourse, but easier said than done.......
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:16 pm
Interesting! As an add on, Tulku Urgyen talks about people who practice without having recognized rigpa as mingling only two spaces, rather than three, so I think it's not necessarily the case that mingling the outer and inner will itself lead to recognition of rigpa or to awakened equipoise.
You need to receive instructions on this in person. Without direct introduction you can stare at the sky all day long. Also some other instructions are needed.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stong gzugs »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:17 pm You need to receive instructions on this in person. Without direct introduction you can stare at the sky all day long.
Yep, that's what exactly Tulku Urgyen is saying. Here's a quote:
First of all, the outer empty space is simply the openness right in front of you. The inner space of empty mind is simply the empty quality of your mind. The innermost space of empty rigpa, nondual awareness, is the moment traditionally spoken of as 'four parts without three'. This last is what is pointed out by the guru. To try to practice this without having received the pointing-out instruction and recognized rigpa is to mingle only two, not three types of space ... To train in this without having recognized rigpa, is merely a mingling of two, not the threefold space. This is what happens whenever an ordinary person relaxes and looks into the sky.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:17 pm You need to receive instructions on this in person. Without direct introduction you can stare at the sky all day long.
Yep, that's what exactly Tulku Urgyen is saying. Here's a quote:
What I am saying is that further instructions are required, since there are different versions of mixing the three spaces, with different emphasis depending on whether one is practicing trekcho or thogal.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Josef »

merilingpa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:16 pm
merilingpa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:04 am

Well, they are but I think they are important for most people and somewhat downplayed in this forum sometimes. The secondary practices are underestimated and needed to get better at recognizing and staying in rigpa for most people I think.


If you think you need, that’s up to you. It’s not up to you to decide for others. The method we use in the DC for maintaining instant presence is Song of Vajra.

You could ofcourse also be in rigpa while reciting mantras for short moments of time.(quote]

We use SOV, and number of other Dzogchen mantras that have nothing to do with creation and completion.


So they can become in this way a primary practice with some secondary features. :smile:
And I think its not so easy to stay in rigpa for a long time. Its about seconds or split seconds, not just sounding Ah and walking off and talking to friends and making coffee and thinking that you are in rigpa while doing it.
If you think you cannot be in a state of trekcho while walking , talking, and making coffee, you have not really understood CHNN teachings. One does not “think” one is in instant presence. One uses mindfulness and attention to support instant presence.
My point here is that I think it is very difficult to walk around, talking and making coffee and also be in a state of trekchö. We are all aiming for that ofcourse, but easier said than done.......
It is of course not easy, but by diligently applying the instructions of one's guru, especially if that guru is ChNN this capacity will develop over time.
People tend to be more inclined toward performative flashy ritual practices than the simple practice of "being present". Rinpoche's advice to practice guru yoga, be present, and work with circumstances, is really a complete path when taken to heart.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm
merilingpa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:16 pm

If you think you need, that’s up to you. It’s not up to you to decide for others. The method we use in the DC for maintaining instant presence is Song of Vajra.




If you think you cannot be in a state of trekcho while walking , talking, and making coffee, you have not really understood CHNN teachings. One does not “think” one is in instant presence. One uses mindfulness and attention to support instant presence.
My point here is that I think it is very difficult to walk around, talking and making coffee and also be in a state of trekchö. We are all aiming for that ofcourse, but easier said than done.......
It is of course not easy, but by diligently applying the instructions of one's guru, especially if that guru is ChNN this capacity will develop over time.
People tend to be more inclined toward performative flashy ritual practices than the simple practice of "being present". Rinpoche's advice to practice guru yoga, be present, and work with circumstances, is really a complete path when taken to heart.
I hope you don't suggest that the whole mindfulness movement is resting in rigpa? Being present is really important for Dzogchen practitioners but that is not resting in rigpa.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Josef »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:48 pm
Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm
merilingpa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:58 pm

My point here is that I think it is very difficult to walk around, talking and making coffee and also be in a state of trekchö. We are all aiming for that ofcourse, but easier said than done.......
It is of course not easy, but by diligently applying the instructions of one's guru, especially if that guru is ChNN this capacity will develop over time.
People tend to be more inclined toward performative flashy ritual practices than the simple practice of "being present". Rinpoche's advice to practice guru yoga, be present, and work with circumstances, is really a complete path when taken to heart.
I hope you don't suggest that the whole mindfulness movement is resting in rigpa? Being present is really important for Dzogchen practitioners but that is not resting in rigpa.
Im not sure how anyone could possibly think that is what I am suggesting.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

merilingpa wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:58 pm My point here is that I think it is very difficult to walk around, talking and making coffee and also be in a state of trekchö.
Then I guess it is difficult for you, since you think it is difficult. It is not how I was taught. We all take away different things from the teachings, even when we follow the same teacher. Buddha is a perfect example of this phenomenon. There is both a direct way to practice Dzogchen and an indirect way, relying on secondary practices for support. Neither way is wrong. I prefer the former to the latter.

ChNN stressed that there is no such a thing as "pure Dzogchen," contra the ideas of some. On the other hand, he also stressed over and over again that Dzogchen was not just some add-on to Vajrayāna, even though this is how most people in Tibetan Buddhism relate to it.

Dzogchen is an independent vehicle. He often pointed out that each of the vehicles were independent paths, complete in themselves. For example, everyone understands Śrāvakayāna and Mahāyāna are a complete path. No one says, "To complete the path of śrāvakyāna, you must practice pratyekabuddhayāna, etc., or to complete the Mahāyāna path, you must then practice kriya tantra." Mahāyāna is a complete path, so is kriya tantra.

This does not mean it is invalid for Dzogchen tantras and texts, like the Great Space of Vajrasattva, to point out the deviations and errors of the eight or nine vehicles. Because understanding those deviations and errors is important for discovering one's primordial state and not having doubts.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun May 28, 2023 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:25 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:48 pm
Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm

It is of course not easy, but by diligently applying the instructions of one's guru, especially if that guru is ChNN this capacity will develop over time.
People tend to be more inclined toward performative flashy ritual practices than the simple practice of "being present". Rinpoche's advice to practice guru yoga, be present, and work with circumstances, is really a complete path when taken to heart.
I hope you don't suggest that the whole mindfulness movement is resting in rigpa? Being present is really important for Dzogchen practitioners but that is not resting in rigpa.
Im not sure how anyone could possibly think that is what I am suggesting.
You say "the simple practice of "being present"" and that is understood by the majority of people as mindfulness. Even ChNNR considered it mindfulness, a mindfulness that is important to be able to rest in rigpa, but it isn't rigpa.
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Josef »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:28 pm
Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:25 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:48 pm

I hope you don't suggest that the whole mindfulness movement is resting in rigpa? Being present is really important for Dzogchen practitioners but that is not resting in rigpa.
Im not sure how anyone could possibly think that is what I am suggesting.
You say "the simple practice of "being present"" and that is understood by the majority of people as mindfulness. Even ChNNR considered it mindfulness, a mindfulness that is important to be able to rest in rigpa, but it isn't rigpa.
Had I said "all you have to do is be present" then that could be a problem.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:33 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:28 pm
Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:25 pm

Im not sure how anyone could possibly think that is what I am suggesting.
You say "the simple practice of "being present"" and that is understood by the majority of people as mindfulness. Even ChNNR considered it mindfulness, a mindfulness that is important to be able to rest in rigpa, but it isn't rigpa.
Had I said "all you have to do is be present" then that could be a problem.
Exactly you said: "Rinpoche's advice to practice guru yoga, be present, and work with circumstances, is really a complete path when taken to heart." So I just really don't know where the actual resting in rigpa is while you "walk around, talking and making coffee"? I don't mean to be difficult but it isn't obvious in your response to merilingpa.
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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