Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

dpcalder
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Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by dpcalder »

First, I want to say that I have emailed a teacher for professional advice, so this is something I am actively investigating rather than just spamming this (admittedly very helpful) board!

I wanted to bounce something off you guys though, because I think I may be misunderstanding zazen

It was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation - you just sit in awareness and monitor your thoughts as they arise and fall away, like clouds passing in the sky, and this is all there is to it.

But I am getting the impression that it is a very specific kind of meditation and that “open monitoring meditation” doesn’t quite adequately summarize it.

I’m not asking for an exhaustive summary btw. I just want to know if zazen is really something quite specific rather than just generic open monitoring meditation
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by narhwal90 »

I think if you're building concepts around it- interpreting what it is or is not- then you're still enmeshed in the discursive grasping mind. Or put another way, talking about what riding a bicycle is and is not is not the same as riding one.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by reiun »

The practice of zazen can lead to samadhi (right concentration, Eightfold Path). The practice is not necessarily perfect, and quality means more than quantity. What is perfect is realization of true nature through this practice.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am First, I want to say that I have emailed a teacher for professional advice, so this is something I am actively investigating rather than just spamming this (admittedly very helpful) board!

I wanted to bounce something off you guys though, because I think I may be misunderstanding zazen

It was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation - you just sit in awareness and monitor your thoughts as they arise and fall away, like clouds passing in the sky, and this is all there is to it.

But I am getting the impression that it is a very specific kind of meditation and that “open monitoring meditation” doesn’t quite adequately summarize it.

I’m not asking for an exhaustive summary btw. I just want to know if zazen is really something quite specific rather than just generic open monitoring meditation
I think there is much more (less?) to it than just monitoring thoughts.

My Zen teacher used to talk about it being about letting go, doing less, sitting like a mountain and all that, in a sense purposeless.

So, if you are sitting and watching that is an action, with a doer doing something. In my limited Zen experience sitting and watching thoughts is basically the default preliminary (because that’s what you pay attention to sitting there!) and the deeper dimension comes from gradual practice and teacher guidance.

It’s subtle stuff and not necessarily a set of discrete instruction someone can just hand over in natural language alone.

Also just my two cents but to me being in a actual Zendo, learning how to bow, getting help on posture (the posture is huge, not a passing thing) how to work with your cushion, etc. it’s all of a piece. That’s not to say in person stuff is necessarily the only way by any means, just that progression (such as it is, not the best term) requires immersion in the tradition and not just using a technique.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by PeterC »

dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am It was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation - you just sit in awareness and monitor your thoughts as they arise and fall away, like clouds passing in the sky, and this is all there is to it.
There's a lot more to it. To start with, as JD pointed out you're still in the subject/object with that description.

There are a few people on this board who could give you a better explanation than I could, but I'm certain they would say that it's an activity practiced under a teacher, and your first step should be finding a qualified teacher.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Anders »

dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am First, I want to say that I have emailed a teacher for professional advice, so this is something I am actively investigating rather than just spamming this (admittedly very helpful) board!

I wanted to bounce something off you guys though, because I think I may be misunderstanding zazen

It was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation - you just sit in awareness and monitor your thoughts as they arise and fall away, like clouds passing in the sky, and this is all there is to it.

But I am getting the impression that it is a very specific kind of meditation and that “open monitoring meditation” doesn’t quite adequately summarize it.

I’m not asking for an exhaustive summary btw. I just want to know if zazen is really something quite specific rather than just generic open monitoring meditation
Hi,

I am not attached to a soto lineage so others will no doubt chime in with better explanations, but imo this is a bit reductive. Dogen referred to it as "wholehearted practise of the way". Hakuun Yasutani said of it "Sit with such intensely heightened concentration, patience, and alertness that if someone were to touch you while you are sitting, there would be an electrical spark! Sitting thus, you return naturally to the original Buddha, the very nature of your being."
I would say "just sitting" is 'just so' from one angle, but from another it is throwing the whole of your existence into sitting.

Taigen Dan Leighton wrote of it like this:

"One way to categorize the meditation practice of shikan taza, or “just sitting,” is as an objectless meditation. ... "
"But objectless meditation focuses on clear, non-judgmental, panoramic attention to all of the myriad arising phenomena in the present experience. Such objectless meditation is a potential universally available to conscious beings, and has been expressed at various times in history. This just sitting is not a meditation technique or practice, or any thing at all. “Just sitting” is a verb rather than a noun, the dynamic activity of being fully present."

Going well back, Shitou wrote “Turn around the light to shine within, then just return. . . . Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely. Open your hands and walk, innocent.”

I also don't think that the "beyond thinking" that Dogen terms the essential art of zazen boils down to simply watching the stream of thoughts. Personally, I would say It is about the art of sitting in a way that takes in the whole of your inner and outer environment, including thoughts, without being taken in by directed thinking. But that is my personal take.
And I would say that the great ambiguity that surrounds the term "beyond thinking" is the field in which personal instruction from a realised teacher becomes necessary to ensure that your own lute is strung just right. This is the field where we learn to be responsive without being taken in, but without falling into the passivity of merely observing either. It's a delicate and engaged affair, easy to miss the mark.
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I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Tao »

First Zazen usually it's quite equivalent to self-liberation of thougths in Tibet.

You dont really observe thougths, you "just stay there" with naked awarenees, that's the meditation, but thoughts will arise at this point, so naked awareness should be able to detect the arising and let the thought fall for itself (detecting is itself letting it go or self-liberate, no action is required).

The third possibility is that you dont detect the thought arising but you get lost in it (because of attachments), but the procedure is the same, you detect you were "dreaming" and you let the thought fall fot itself (no action required).

So:

- No thoughts -> naked awareness
- Arising thoughts -> naked awareness
- Lost in thoughts -> return to naked awareness

The practice is not exactly monitoring thoughts but keeping naked awareness (without object) and that may imply some clear view of your mind call it monitoring or not.

With time (and in my opinion after kensho always) naked awareness will be present in front of thoughts.

Then there will be again three options in a similar way:

- No thoughts -> naked awareness
- Seeing thoughts pass -> naked awareness
- Lost in thoughts (show you an attachment) -> detect and return to naked awareness

And later on only the first two wil survive.

Maybe in the end only the first one will survive but I dont know.

That's, of course, an explanation that will be rejected by more epic approaches for being too simple. But it's that simple.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

This reminds me of this drawing of and old monk and a new monk, by the cartoonist Gahan Wilson.

The trick (or problem, hurdle, issue, whatever you want to call it) is that as soon as you ask, “is there more?” You’re dead, because this is still being stuck in the dualistic trap of thinking in terms of
“more / not more.”

If you just sit there staring at the wall forever, you won’t get anywhere. But as soon as you interject some “purpose” beyond that, you’re sidetracked. Right? So, it seems like there is nowhere to turn. But that’s just because of the dualistic mind. Why turn? Why go anywhere at all?

So, you have to look at this “monitoring” which is not just about being aware of your body or your breath or your environment, but also looking at or listening to the thing that is busy doing the monitoring. You have to look at the mind itself, watch the watcher.

Then, you are still “just monitoring” but the difference is, previously you were monitoring a shallow pond and now you are looking into a much deeper pond.
Does that make any sense?
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Malcolm »

dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am
But I am getting the impression that it is a very specific kind of meditation and that “open monitoring meditation” doesn’t quite adequately summarize it.
You’ve confused modern, secular mindfulness practice with Buddhist meditation.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Astus »

dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 amIt was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation - you just sit in awareness and monitor your thoughts as they arise and fall away, like clouds passing in the sky, and this is all there is to it.
Thoughts come and go anyway, no need to monitor them. If anything, it's the posture/body that one might initially pay attention to.

There is this very simplified explanation of zazen on the Soto Zen official site.

There are three main components of Zazen: Posture, Breathing, Adjusting your mind.

POSTURE
The target of the zazen posture is to sit comfortably and spontaneously. In zazen, you sit in a relaxed manner and releasing the muscles that are usually overused.
Zazen is not painful or difficult if you sit properly.

BREATHING
Breathe slowly through your nose and try to breathe carefully.
If you are not used to this, try to take deep and long breaths, focusing on the exhale.

ADJUSTING YOUR MIND
During zazen, various kinds of thoughts come to mind. It is natural as long as we are alive.
The important thing is not to chase them or hold them.
You do not need to force yourself to think about getting rid of thoughts, becoming nothing, or unifying your mind.


And there was this topic not too long ago: Is zazen a form of open monitoring meditation?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Genjo Conan »

I've been practicing zazen for years and I'm not sure I understand it.

I do think it's important to work with a teacher. A good one can cut through a lot of the questions you're having. Failing that, there are some "basic zazen instruction" videos on YouTube that I think are pretty good. Here's one from my teacher's teacher; I'm partial to it. There are others. But videos really can't compare to in-person instruction.

Edit, forgot to include the link:
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by kirtu »

dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am I’m not asking for an exhaustive summary btw. I just want to know if zazen is really something quite specific rather than just generic open monitoring meditation
Zazen is a practice that can completely awaken a sentient being. This it is beyond "open monitoring meditation" although some people can start at that point or their practice might take awhile to deepen.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by natusake »

Zazen just means sitting meditation.

What zazen actually entails depends on the specific instructions one receives from their teacher. There are a number of techniques, many general to Zen, many with specific flavours of instruction for each lineage, and so on. But zazen is pretty much just a word to refer to formal sitting practice. It doesn't mean much until you get instructions from a teacher.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by master of puppets »

Generally speaking there is nothing to understand in zen meditation.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by reiun »

master of puppets wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:15 pm Generally speaking there is nothing to understand in zen meditation.
"Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?"

As long as you have a teacher, and you actually practice per instruction, then there is a good chance that you don't misunderstand Soto zen. If you don't actually practice zazen, and you have never had a teacher, the chances are less likely.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Suda »

dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am First, I want to say that I have emailed a teacher for professional advice, so this is something I am actively investigating rather than just spamming this (admittedly very helpful) board!

I wanted to bounce something off you guys though, because I think I may be misunderstanding zazen

It was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation - you just sit in awareness and monitor your thoughts as they arise and fall away, like clouds passing in the sky, and this is all there is to it.

But I am getting the impression that it is a very specific kind of meditation and that “open monitoring meditation” doesn’t quite adequately summarize it.

I’m not asking for an exhaustive summary btw. I just want to know if zazen is really something quite specific rather than just generic open monitoring meditation
Hi dpcalder my view on that is that Zazen or just sitting is a lot less than monitoring meditation is about getting rid of the one doing the monitoring
It is an impostor
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Anders wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:24 am
dpcalder wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am
It was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation -
Dogen referred to it as "wholehearted practise of the way". Hakuun Yasutani said of it "Sit with such intensely heightened concentration, patience, and alertness that if someone were to touch you while you are sitting, there would be an electrical spark! Sitting thus, you return naturally to the original Buddha, the very nature of your being."
I would say "just sitting" is 'just so' from one angle, but from another it is throwing the whole of your existence into sitting.

Taigen Dan Leighton wrote of it like this:

"One way to categorize the meditation practice of shikan taza, or “just sitting,” is as an objectless meditation. ... "
"But objectless meditation focuses on clear, non-judgmental, panoramic attention to all of the myriad arising phenomena in the present experience. Such objectless meditation is a potential universally available to conscious beings, and has been expressed at various times in history. This just sitting is not a meditation technique or practice, or any thing at all. “Just sitting” is a verb rather than a noun, the dynamic activity of being fully present."

Going well back, Shitou wrote “Turn around the light to shine within, then just return. . . . Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely. Open your hands and walk, innocent.”

I also don't think that the "beyond thinking" that Dogen terms the essential art of zazen boils down to simply watching the stream of thoughts. Personally, I would say It is about the art of sitting in a way that takes in the whole of your inner and outer environment, including thoughts, without being taken in by directed thinking. But that is my personal take.
And I would say that the great ambiguity that surrounds the term "beyond thinking" is the field in which personal instruction from a realised teacher becomes necessary to ensure that your own lute is strung just right. This is the field where we learn to be responsive without being taken in, but without falling into the passivity of merely observing either. It's a delicate and engaged affair, easy to miss the mark.
This is excellent advice
:good:
Just sitting and watching is shamatha meditation.
Zazen is bright, total absorption in this very moment of everything.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Desafinado »

To me Zazen has always meant going through the Gateless Gate. Shifting from the 'I am a person with problems' mindset to 'I am one and the same as everything around me and do not need to see distinctions or make interpretations'.

Later Dogen's Shobogenzo added a lot to the practice. Paraphrasing - the mountains are always walking, the great mirror, and so on.

More recently I've shifted from a kind of materialist view to one where I accept the absolute lack of meaning or ontology of what I'm experiencing. A kind of, 'this just is'.

The only truly authentic experience of Zazen is that which you experience yourself, but fundamentally you need to get through the gateless gate. Which is the pinnacle of Buddhist experience - the embodiment of Buddhist philosophy.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Tao »

> Just sitting and watching is shamatha meditation.

Just sitting is being aware not being aware of any concret object, that's the difference with classic samatha

If you can be aware and only be aware, that's all you need... that's just sitting.

Not possible though before passing the gateless gate (as said by Hakuin many years ago).

Maitreya said:

The introduction to practicing wisdom correctly entails the following four specific aspects:

Practice involving something to focus on; (samatha and similar)
Practice involving nothing to focus on; (just sitting and similar)
Practice involving no subject to focus on; (anatta realized and just sitting)
Practice whose focus is nothing to focus on.

– Maitreya: Distinguiendo fenómeno de base.
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Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?

Post by Meido »

Tao wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:47 am Not possible though before passing the gateless gate (as said by Hakuin many years ago).
Just to nitpick since "gateless gate" has been mentioned a few times:

This is a popular mistranslation of the word mumonkan 無門關.

無 - no, negation
門 - gate
關 - barrier, checkpoint, a frontier pass.

So more accurately: "gateless barrier", i.e. the image of a checkpoint or barrier that one must pass through, but that has no apparent gate for doing so. Can refer to initial awakening, and is the title of a famous collection of koans as well.

"Gateless gate" would be 無門門 i presume, and also doesn't really make sense. The word barrier, kan 關, appears prominently elsewhere (see Hekiganroku #8) so it's best to keep the translations consistent.

Sorry for the diversion, it's a pet peeve among Zen folks.
Last edited by Meido on Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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