ChNN and formal trekchö practice

oldbob
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by oldbob »

Dear climb-up – all and All,

With caveats, it is safe to share these.

These statements are available online so I think that it is ok to publish them here with a few explanations. I have received transmission of these from several qualified Lamas and so I think it is OK to share them, as appropriate.

I have received these teachings from several qualified Lamas and so I feel that it is OK to satisfy climb-up’s curiosity about them with the caveats that no one should think that they are beyond karma / cause and effect until they can manifest the miracles of the Mahasiddhas.

And so the main caveat when sharing these ideas is:

“View as wide as the sky” and “Control your actions as small as small as a Til seed.”

The key point is that these expressions are written from within the enlightened Tregchod view and can lead to complete misunderstanding, and disaster if you try to fit them within the ordinary dualistic mind. So until you are enlightened it is best to remember the 10 Golden Things (the Buddhist 10 commandments) and not try to interpret through words what cannot be put into words – though some succeed with many opportunities for misunderstanding.

In the digital age, there are no secrets. Isn’t it wise and prudent to publish everything with the appropriate caveats and safeguards?

Into the Lion’s mouth!

_________________________________________

The 12 Vajra Laughs

The Twelve Vajra Laughs

O Vajra Essence of the speech of Buddha, look through the perspective of self-sprung awareness and morality, philosophy and meditation are superseded! How marvelous! Regardless of any physical or verbal action, the immutable ground remains untouched by benefit or harm and free of profit or loss. HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look at the basic nature of things and the world never sheds its skin nor changes its color! How marvelous! Regardless of positive or negative interpretation, there is no change in reality. HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look at the pristine awareness that is the ubiquitous source, total emptiness, and regardless of the intention enacted it is all marvelous display! How marvelous! Whatever we do is immediately released in the unborn matrix! HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech, listen again! Look through all-embracing pristine awareness, the emptiness of reality—it has been with us from time without beginning. How wonderful! Even if one person kills many others with a sharp knife, at that time neither benefit nor harm would accrue to his nature of mind. HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look through all-illuminating pristine awareness, our own empty cognition, and every appearance arises as a friendly helper! How marvelous! Regardless of whatever appears, nothing ever leaves the ground of being! HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech-Essence! Look through the self-released gestalt of pure empty presence and the nature of the poison is its most effective antidote! How marvelous. Every passion is self-liberating! HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look through pure empty presence, the immaculate essence, and fruition is effortlessly accomplished of its own accord! How marvelous! Through unity, all samsara and nirvana dissolve into nondual being! HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look into the secret abode of the ubiquitous ground, at the super-empty essence, and effortlessly the six types of mythic beings appear in their three gnostic dimensions! How marvelous! They all become Buddha at once without practicing even an instant of meditation! HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look through timelessly perfected fruition, the super-emptiness of the three dimensions, and time is beyond differentiation! How marvelous! Without practicing the six perfections (paramitas), the accumulations of virtue and awareness are completed at once. HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look at the smoothed-out super emptiness of pure simple presence and all deliberate action arises as ornamentation! How marvelous! All discriminatory activity is released through this vision! HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look through ultimate super-emptiness, at the emptiness of emptiness, and all buddhas exists in an abyss! How marvelous! They have fallen due to deliberate meditation! HA! HA!

O Vajra Speech! Look at matter, substantial emptiness—this is the stance where absence is believed to possess identity! How marvelous! We attain the unborn state through birth! HA! HA!

[Longchenpa, translated by Keith Dowman]

________________________________________________
The 9 Amazing Things (Translated by Lama Vajranatha

This self-originated Clear Light, which from the very beginning was in no way produced by something antecedent to it, is the child of awareness, and yet it is itself without any parents Amazing!

This self-originated primordial awareness has not been created by anything Amazing!

It does not experience birth nor does there exist a cause for its death Amazing!

Although it is evidently visible, yet there is no one there who sees it Amazing!

Although it has wandered throughout Samsara, it has come to no harm Amazing!

Even though it has seen Buddhahood itself, it has not come to any benefit from this Amazing!

Even though it exists in everyone everywhere, yet it has gone unrecognized Amazing!

Nonetheless, you hope to attain some other fruit than this elsewhere Amazing!

Even though it exists within yourself and nowhere else, yet you seek for it elsewhere Amazing!
_____________________________________________________________________
There are lots of words about the implications of Dzogchen and Trekchod view, but “Ha Ha” and “Amazing” sum it up.

And so - The “Great Completion” is not a partial completion. The “All” in the “One point includes All,” is complete, and does not leave anything out.

And so, the Tregchod of ChNN included all forms of the teaching of Tregchod, formal and informal – beyond all limits.

And so the Tregchod of ChNN included the Vajra Laughs and Amazing things though I never heard them taught as such.

I am sure if you had asked him if it was ok to practice sitting Tregchod under a qualified Lama, I am sure he would have approved.

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... n_Rinpoche

This is the Lama with whom I did 2 formal Tregchod retreats in 1980 and 1981.

:heart:
Danny
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Danny »

Old bob...

Kunsang jaku ?

It’s not there..
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climb-up
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by climb-up »

oldbob wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:34 pm
I have received these teachings from several qualified Lamas and so I feel that it is OK to satisfy climb-up’s curiosity
Thank you 🙏
And so, the Tregchod of ChNN included all forms of the teaching of Tregchod, formal and informal – beyond all limits.

And so the Tregchod of ChNN included the Vajra Laughs and Amazing things though I never heard them taught as such.
Indeed!
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Sādhaka
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Sādhaka »

The Luminous Clarity of the Universe – A Clear Exposition of the Primordially Pure Tregchöd

Could anyone comment on the difference between this^ newly-released text and ChNNR’s Longsal Volume on Trekchö?
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu May 25, 2023 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Arnoud
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Arnoud »

I think he wrote this one before he revealed his Longsal terma. It has many quotations and has more pages, etc. Mine is on its way to me.
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Norwegian »

Arnoud wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:14 pm I think he wrote this one before he revealed his Longsal terma. It has many quotations and has more pages, etc. Mine is on its way to me.
ChNN added portions from his Longsal terma in 2005 to the text in question.
jet.urgyen
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by jet.urgyen »

i dare to say that trekcho ain't a practice. ain't an effort.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Vasana »

jet.urgyen wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:24 pm i dare to say that trekcho ain't a practice. ain't an effort.
non-effort is not the same as non-dilligence.


Jean-Luc Achard on Integration of the View and the Role of Diligence in Relation to the Key Points of Trekcho

'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
krodha
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by krodha »

jet.urgyen wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:24 pm i dare to say that trekcho ain't a practice. ain't an effort.
Effort is required at first. Starting out you have to “chase” the meditation, and then eventually it chases you, as Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche and Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche put it. Trekchö initially takes a lot of effort and diligence.

People conflate the “effortless” mechanics of the so-called practice with the process being entirely effortless. If you don’t apply any effort at all you’ll end up doing nothing. I’m sure a lot of people do nothing and sit around and think they’re practicing trekchö somehow. Idiots.

The aspect of effort is related to the habitual inclinations to become distracted and grasp. Those habits are very strong, and so diligent and persistent effort in the “effortless” mechanics of the discipline are needed.

This is what Chögyal Namkhai Norbu was referring to when he used the analogy of learning to drive a car. Lots of effort in the beginning, but eventually it becomes second nature and it is very easy and generally effortless.
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Sādhaka
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Sādhaka »

Arnoud wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:14 pm I think he wrote this one before he revealed his Longsal terma. It has many quotations and has more pages, etc. Mine is on its way to me.

Oh I should have noticed that in the description.

Then I wonder if much of what is written in the newly-released book is found in the older blue hardback cover compilation of ChNNR’s teachings, I believe titled Talks in Conway (?)

In any case, I’d imagine that with all the teachings and practices that ChNNR has given, that his Longsal Volume on Tregchö is more than enough
krodha
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by krodha »

jet.urgyen wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:26 pm
krodha wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:13 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:00 pm

i'm sorry, atiyoga is non-gradual. one becomes aware of that at the very begining of practicing it.

most ChNN's followers are pretenders, so his teachings are for them. the context of his teaching is very important.
It is non-gradual because (i) it is the same continuum of vidyā from start to finish, and (ii) we are not producing anything new, only removing impediments.

Apart from those non-gradual aspects, there is a path. The dharmatā of the minds of sentient beings and Buddhas is identical in characteristic, but the former is burdened by avidyā while the latter is not. The process of eliminating avidyā is not immediate.

Take it from ya boy Dudjom Lingpa, he was not a DC pretender as you so arrogantly assert:
  • Having simply identified vidyā, some people, who lack even a trace of any meditation, claim they have experienced the extinction into dharmatā and there is nothing more to spiritual awakening than this. That is an enormous mistake! The qualities of realization mature through the power of gradual practice. This is how you must reach the state of liberation.
It is non gradual because your guru pointed at. That's tne non-gradual I'm taking about. It doesn't need much explanation.
There are concurrent contexts here that are important to understand. Something that may gradually occur in a non-gradual context. If we only fixate on the non-gradual side of things then we run the risk of missing some valuable nuances about the ati path.

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche describes this well in the following excerpt:
  • A seeming confusion obscures the recognition of the basis [gzhi]. Fortunately, this seeming delusion is temporary. This failure to recognize the basis is similar to dreaming. Dreaming is not primordial; it is temporary, it can be purified. Purification happens through training on the path. We have strayed from the basis and become sentient beings. To free the basis from what obscures it, we have to train. Right now, we are on the path and have not yet attained the result. When we are freed from obscuration, then the result - dharmakāya - appears. The liberated basis, path and result are all perfected in the realm of the single essence, the continuity of rig pa [vidyā].

    In fact, there is no difference whatsoever between the basis and result. In the state of the basis the enlightened qualities are not acknowledged, but they are manifest at the time of the result. These are not new qualities that suddenly appear, but are like the qualities of a flower that are inherent in the seed. Within the seed are the characteristics of the flower itself. The seed holds the potential for the flower's color, smell, bud and leaves. However, can we say that the seed is the result of the flower? No, we cannot, because the flower has not fully bloomed. Like this analogy, the qualities of the result are contained in the state of the basis; yet, they are not evident or manifest. That is the difference between the basis and the result. At the time of the path, if we do not apply effort, the result will not appear.
You are sort of choosing to focus on the part in bold, to the detriment of the rest of the points being made. The two gradual/nongradual aspects are not in contradiction. There’s no reason to single one side out at the expense of the other. They are in harmony and balance if understood properly.
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Lets stay on topic and discuss personal stuff Re: the DC in appropriate places.
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Vasana »

Is anyone able to send a pic of the contents page(s) of the new Trekchod book from ChNNR? (In a pm)
I want to see how much of it is different from the recent Longsal commentary series on Trekchod.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
krodha
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by krodha »

Vasana wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:04 am Is anyone able to send a pic of the contents page(s) of the new Trekchod book from ChNNR? (In a pm)
I want to see how much of it is different from the recent Longsal commentary series on Trekchod.
Can someone share a link to this new book? I only see the trekchö longsal commentary in the Shang shung store.
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Vasana »

https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/en/

It's on the banner of the front page here. Requires login to click on as it's restricted content. Specific link below.

https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/e ... gchod.html

Also worth noting that the conditions say that D.I from a qualified Dzogchen master is sufficient. It looks like it's 564 pages so should be quite thorough.

I've always hoped some of NNR's work became more accesible to those outside of the D.C.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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ject
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by ject »

Thanks for the info.
Currently reading Guruyoga and The Song of the Vajra.
"An Introduction to the Practice of Contemplation" will be next.
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Vasana »

Vasana wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:04 am Is anyone able to send a pic of the contents page(s) of the new Trekchod book from ChNNR? (In a pm)
I want to see how much of it is different from the Longsal commentary series on Trekchod.

Bump
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Passing By »

Vasana wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:18 pm
Vasana wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:04 am Is anyone able to send a pic of the contents page(s) of the new Trekchod book from ChNNR? (In a pm)
I want to see how much of it is different from the Longsal commentary series on Trekchod.

Bump
The new book is 500+ pages long and the contents alone spans 11 pages
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by daokedao »

It's quite a beautiful book, with many many illustrations. I tried to upload photos, but I got "HTTP error" messages. Contnet aside, it's definitely worth the price (including shipping overseas) just in terms of the production. But it's also packed full of good stuff.
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Re: ChNN and formal trekchö practice

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

FYI I wrote them to ask when the e-book version would be out and this morning they responded saying it’ll be out a few days from now.
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