The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:23 pm The following is an older post of yours; but if he is saying that Shamatha is a necessary prerequisite for Dzogchen, and Shamatha can be attained in a single afternoon, then is he going in the wrong direction?
He is not saying śamatha can be attained in a single afternoon, is he?

And the distinction is this: Rongzom makes the point that if someone is not capable understanding the meaning of the Great Perfection and must resort to a path involving effort, then following the Mañjuśrīmitra's instruction, there are two indirect ways of entering into the knowledge of Dzogchen combined with Dzogchen view: (1) through developing a stable contemplation though standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice, where he identifies six faults and ten obscurations of concentration and three faults related to vipaśyanā, which he explains in detail.

(2) One can practice his unique system of six limb yoga of Secret Mantra, again, combined with Dzogchen view. For example, following one's vows is considered to be pratyāhara-- one sees all the consciousnesses of the sense as fauts, but one does not abandon them. This is considered to render one a container for concentration. Concentration itself is focusing on the three secrets, the deity, mantra, and wisdom. In this context then, the five mental factor associated with concentration manifest. Once the factors of concentration arise, then one practices prāṇāyama, specifically breath retention, which produces different signs during the day and during the night, etc. It is quite detailed and interesting. He concludes, "In brief, also all these different concentrations will be skillful conduct if done in connection with the meaning of Dzogchen, but will be unskillful conduct if not connected."

No one can decide for you if you are someone who needs to practice with effort or without, but since the main point is to nakedly expose rig pa from the beginning, then, we try to achieve this from the beginning. If we succeed in this, then we do not need to follow the path of effort described above. All of these concentrations described by Rongom are considered "meditation" by Longchenpa, and mind-based, and distinct from the unique natural concentration that characterizes nakedly exposing vidyā.

Claiming however that one can only practice trekcho after realizing emptiness however, is totally in the wrong direction.
Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:40 pmDoes anyone argue that a calm and settled mind is an obstacle to trekchod
It depends on how that mind is settled and calm, since meditation, as defined by Longchenpa (and following him, Chogyal Namkahi Norbu), is ultimately based on conceptual one-pointedness, and trekcho is not.

ChNN makes the point that what is necessary is only knowledge of the example wisdom (Upadeśa on the Primordially Pure Tregchöd commentary, pg.90-91) which is based solely on the guru's instructions and the disciple's faith. This is superior to the two stages or analysis, as ChNN states. very clearly. The Upadeśa on Primordially Pure Tregchöd commentary could not be clearer about this, and duplicates statements made by Longchen in chapter 10 verbatim, though without attribution.


Claiming that one must achieve some measure of śamatha before being be able to practice Dzogchen methods of exposing rig pa nakedly is entirely wrong and limiting.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Tata1 »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:34 am
madhusudan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:24 am Here is a new clip of BAW addressing this issue for those who want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

TLDR: He claims that there are extremely rare genius-level practitioners who might not need to "achieve" shamatha, but for everyone else it is necessary. This, he says, is what he was taught by GR from multiple texts as well as from other Lamas, though he also mentions one without naming names who did not include shamatha in his Dzogchen.
Two interesting points to me.

1) He makes a big deal of meeting one Dzogchen teacher who didn’t explicitly include śamatha as a separate practice, and puzzles over why. This is surprising to me as it’s a common approach among many Dzogchen teachers afaik. It’s seems he’s had long and fairly deep training, but quite limited in exposure to different approaches.

2) He mentions “realizing emptiness” a few times, and mentions doing so before beginning trekcho. I don’t know how he defines realizing emptiness, but as I understand it this would be a much bigger deal than the insistence on achieving śamatha. It would make Dzogchen the practice of āryas only.
And he doesnt give his name as if its a kind of sin to say that you can practice dzogchen without shamata. Its really weird to me
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:23 pm
Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:40 pmDoes anyone argue that a calm and settled mind is an obstacle to trekchod
It depends on how that mind is settled and calm, since meditation, as defined by Longchenpa (and following him, Chogyal Namkahi Norbu), is ultimately based on conceptual one-pointedness, and trekcho is not.
If one has had DI, then an imperfect conceptual calm-abiding meditation can still eventually make way for brief moments of trekchod, no? If equipose/rigpas isn't stable, post-equipose returns to reference points, even if the reference point is the mere clarity of the mind (sems), correct? What I'm getting at is that surely for most people, regressing from the natural state to post-meditation is a likely occurrence. I doubt that everyone singing SOV remains in perfect equipoise before, during or after singing, yet we still find benefit in it's calming, breath & energy-regulating effect.

I know that formless shamatha is still taking an object, but if one has had D.I and has the clarity and insight, one can be calm and settled and still occasionally have those 'short moments, many times' we hear so much of. It's not an either or situation, imo. Of course we have to know what we're aiming for, however.

Dependent on one's stability, rigpa isn't going to last naturally very long is it? Do those post-meditation moments not essentially equate to a regression to a conceptual state until self-liberating equipoise has returned?

I have no issue with Namkai Norbu's commentaries either, I'm just trying to contextualize it with his writings on shine and lhagtong in Dzogchen and the 4 yogas of semde within the context of shamatha including the moments when the genuine union shamatha-vipassana occur. If everyone was super high capacity like Longchnepa, Norbu Rinpoche and other teachers wouldn't have bothered with teaching Semde, shiné etc.

I know you quoted Longchenpa before remarking on going beyond high and low capacities/faculties, but those categorizations exist for a purpose and NN says in one of those books it's better to consider we have a lower capacity than to prematurely believe ourselves to be of the highest capacities.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Sādhaka
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka »

Thanks for that explanation.

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:08 pm…the distinction is this: Rongzom makes the point that if someone is not capable understanding the meaning of the Great Perfection and must resort to a path involving effort, then following the Mañjuśrīmitra's instruction, there are two indirect ways of entering into the knowledge of Dzogchen combined with Dzogchen view: (1) through developing a stable contemplation though standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice, where he identifies six faults and ten obscurations of concentration and three faults related to vipaśyanā, which he explains in detail.

Is he saying that those six faults and ten obscurations are something that can or need to be overcome through the said standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice (combined with Dzogchen view)? Or is he saying that the said faults and obscurations are something more or less inherent to standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice?

Claiming however that one can only practice trekcho after realizing emptiness however, is totally in the wrong direction.

Right. Otherwise one would have to be around half way through the main praxis of Dzogchen practice, before being able to ‘practice’ the foundation of Dzogchen; which wouldn’t make sense.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Josef »

Tata1 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:37 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:34 am
madhusudan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:24 am Here is a new clip of BAW addressing this issue for those who want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

TLDR: He claims that there are extremely rare genius-level practitioners who might not need to "achieve" shamatha, but for everyone else it is necessary. This, he says, is what he was taught by GR from multiple texts as well as from other Lamas, though he also mentions one without naming names who did not include shamatha in his Dzogchen.
Two interesting points to me.

1) He makes a big deal of meeting one Dzogchen teacher who didn’t explicitly include śamatha as a separate practice, and puzzles over why. This is surprising to me as it’s a common approach among many Dzogchen teachers afaik. It’s seems he’s had long and fairly deep training, but quite limited in exposure to different approaches.

2) He mentions “realizing emptiness” a few times, and mentions doing so before beginning trekcho. I don’t know how he defines realizing emptiness, but as I understand it this would be a much bigger deal than the insistence on achieving śamatha. It would make Dzogchen the practice of āryas only.
And he doesnt give his name as if its a kind of sin to say that you can practice dzogchen without shamata. Its really weird to me
Indeed.
The entire presentation is quite odd.
Last edited by Josef on Thu May 25, 2023 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:23 pm
Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:40 pmDoes anyone argue that a calm and settled mind is an obstacle to trekchod
It depends on how that mind is settled and calm, since meditation, as defined by Longchenpa (and following him, Chogyal Namkahi Norbu), is ultimately based on conceptual one-pointedness, and trekcho is not.
If one has had DI, then an imperfect conceptual calm-abiding meditation can still eventually make way for brief moments of trekchod, no?
No. Longchenpa explicitly negates the idea that common śamatha can expose rig pa nakedly.
If everyone was super high capacity like Longchnepa, Norbu Rinpoche and other teachers wouldn't have bothered with teaching Semde, shiné etc.
Practice according to your own capacity, but don't limit others by insisiting they have to practice according some gradual dzogchen path of your imagination. The four samadhis of sems sde are also not actually gradual.

In Dzogchen trekcho we do not make a distinction according high and low in capacity.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:59 pm
Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:42 pm If one has had DI, then an imperfect conceptual calm-abiding meditation can still eventually make way for brief moments of trekchod, no?
No. Longchenpa explicitly negates the idea that common śamatha can expose rig pa nakedly.
If everyone was super high capacity like Longchnepa, Norbu Rinpoche and other teachers wouldn't have bothered with teaching Semde, shiné etc.
Practice according to your own capacity, but don't limit others by insisiting they have to practice according some gradual dzogchen path of your imagination. The four samadhis of sems sde are also not actually gradual.

In Dzogchen trekcho we do not make a distinction according high and low in capacity.
My point was that if one isn't abiding in the actual meditation or equipoise of trekchod, then that could be deemed post-meditation which may or may not resemble what we're calling ordinary shamatha. If a practioner is not in equipoise, what are they in?

I wasn't refering to common shamatha in isolation, as emphasised with the comment "if one has had DI.

I agree people should practice according to their capacity and not impose limits on others. I would extend that to not offering public criticism on other teachers when they don't score 100% in the 'ideal Dzogchen teacher' criteria.
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Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:54 pm
My point was that if one isn't abiding in the actual meditation or equipoise of trekchod, then that could be deemed post-meditation which may or may not resemble what we're calling ordinary shamatha. If a practioner is not in equipoise, what are they in?
Distraction.
I wasn't refering to common shamatha in isolation, as emphasised with the comment "if one has had DI.
Direct introduction is not a magic wand that transforms mind-based practices into practices that allow one to expose rig pa.
I would extend that to not offering public criticism on other teachers when they don't score 100% in the 'ideal Dzogchen teacher' criteria.

In Wallace's case, he is making indefensible claims that are directly at odds with the Dzogchen teachings.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by not_z »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:17 pm
Direct introduction is not a magic wand that transforms mind-based practices into practices that allow one to expose rig pa.
Why are some mind-based practices able to expose rig pa while others do not? What make semzins, in particular, special?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

not_z wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:28 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:17 pm
Direct introduction is not a magic wand that transforms mind-based practices into practices that allow one to expose rig pa.
Why are some mind-based practices able to expose rig pa while others do not? What make semzins, in particular, special?
Practice them and find out. They are progressive, meant to practiced in an orderly sequence, not haphazardly. The key point is that these exercises expose that radiance directly, just as rushan does.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by not_z »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:08 pm
not_z wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:28 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:17 pm
Direct introduction is not a magic wand that transforms mind-based practices into practices that allow one to expose rig pa.
Why are some mind-based practices able to expose rig pa while others do not? What make semzins, in particular, special?
Practice them and find out. They are progressive, meant to practiced in an orderly sequence, not haphazardly. The key point is that these exercises expose that radiance directly, just as rushan does.
That's what I am doing. I am just wondering if there is a theoretical underpinning for that. Are there signs to look for when deciding to go to the next semzin? And how does the SOV fits into that sequence?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

not_z wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:40 pm
That's what I am doing. I am just wondering if there is a theoretical underpinning for that. Are there signs to look for when deciding to go to the next semzin? And how does the SOV fits into that sequence?
I presume you are using the 21 semzins text by Longchenpa. If so the theory is presented right there, in the text, and the signs. Simple put they are different methods for exposing the radiance of rig pa. SOV is in a different class.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Terma »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:01 pm
not_z wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:40 pm
That's what I am doing. I am just wondering if there is a theoretical underpinning for that. Are there signs to look for when deciding to go to the next semzin? And how does the SOV fits into that sequence?
I presume you are using the 21 semzins text by Longchenpa. If so the theory is presented right there, in the text, and the signs. Simple put they are different methods for exposing the radiance of rig pa. SOV is in a different class.
Would SOV be characterized as a semdzin then?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Terma wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:14 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:01 pm
not_z wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:40 pm
That's what I am doing. I am just wondering if there is a theoretical underpinning for that. Are there signs to look for when deciding to go to the next semzin? And how does the SOV fits into that sequence?
I presume you are using the 21 semzins text by Longchenpa. If so the theory is presented right there, in the text, and the signs. Simple put they are different methods for exposing the radiance of rig pa. SOV is in a different class.
Would SOV be characterized as a semdzin then?
ChNN classifies it as such, but it is also beyond that.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Terma »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:57 am
Terma wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:14 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:01 pm

I presume you are using the 21 semzins text by Longchenpa. If so the theory is presented right there, in the text, and the signs. Simple put they are different methods for exposing the radiance of rig pa. SOV is in a different class.
Would SOV be characterized as a semdzin then?
ChNN classifies it as such, but it is also beyond that.
Thanks. I agree, it is an extraordinary practice. No wonder ChNN repeatedly said that it was one of the most important practices he urged us to do regularly.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Ati108 »

SOV was one of ChNN main practices, if I'm not mistaken.
Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Ati108 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:35 am SOV was one of ChNN main practices, if I'm not mistaken.
Personal communication from him to me: “Song of the Vajra is my main practice”
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:23 pm
Vasana wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:40 pmDoes anyone argue that a calm and settled mind is an obstacle to trekchod
It depends on how that mind is settled and calm, since meditation, as defined by Longchenpa (and following him, Chogyal Namkahi Norbu), is ultimately based on conceptual one-pointedness, and trekcho is not.
If one has had DI, then an imperfect conceptual calm-abiding meditation can still eventually make way for brief moments of trekchod, no? If equipose/rigpas isn't stable, post-equipose returns to reference points, even if the reference point is the mere clarity of the mind (sems), correct? What I'm getting at is that surely for most people, regressing from the natural state to post-meditation is a likely occurrence. I doubt that everyone singing SOV remains in perfect equipoise before, during or after singing, yet we still find benefit in it's calming, breath & energy-regulating effect.

I know that formless shamatha is still taking an object, but if one has had D.I and has the clarity and insight, one can be calm and settled and still occasionally have those 'short moments, many times' we hear so much of. It's not an either or situation, imo. Of course we have to know what we're aiming for, however.

Dependent on one's stability, rigpa isn't going to last naturally very long is it? Do those post-meditation moments not essentially equate to a regression to a conceptual state until self-liberating equipoise has returned?
Recognition of rigpa will last as long as it lasts, but that's not a problem. Then you just recognize again as soon as you notice you have become distracted. Like Tulku Urgyen talks about in As It Is Vol ll (I think) with the sounding of a bell, which is a great analogy.

In other words, if one has already received DI and has confidence in it then why engage in mind-based practices of shamatha and so on when you could just expose rigpa through Ati Guru Yoga or simply by looking and seeing instantly? Talking about post-meditation in this context seems unnecessary since "post-meditation" is simply forgetting to abide in ones nature.

Trekcho is amazing for lazy people because we have one task only, which is to recognize rigpa. During recognition it is left as it is and when we notice we are distracted then it only takes an instant to not become distracted. Why introduce extra baggage?

Maybe people who aren't lazy are trying to practice trekcho and they need more stuff to do? :shrug:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka »

Sādhaka wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:49 pm Thanks for that explanation.

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:08 pm…the distinction is this: Rongzom makes the point that if someone is not capable understanding the meaning of the Great Perfection and must resort to a path involving effort, then following the Mañjuśrīmitra's instruction, there are two indirect ways of entering into the knowledge of Dzogchen combined with Dzogchen view: (1) through developing a stable contemplation though standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice, where he identifies six faults and ten obscurations of concentration and three faults related to vipaśyanā, which he explains in detail.

Is he saying that those six faults and ten obscurations are something that can or need to be overcome through the said standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice (combined with Dzogchen view)? Or is he saying that the said faults and obscurations are something more or less inherent to standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice?

Claiming however that one can only practice trekcho after realizing emptiness however, is totally in the wrong direction.

Right. Otherwise one would have to be around half way through the main praxis of Dzogchen practice, before being able to ‘practice’ the foundation of Dzogchen; which wouldn’t make sense.

And about your second mentioned point from Rongzompa, I’ve come to the conclusion that if you had to choose between Tantra and Dzogchen, to go with Dzogchen. However there is a very specific reason that if one has the possibility to practice both, then that is superior to just practicing one by itself. Perhaps related to the four points (point #4) that Kai Lord enumerated in the recent Rainbow Body thread. Not to get into details here though. Like I’d said; Mahasandhi, if one can only go with one practice, as I’d imagine you’d agree. I mean I’ve noted your mentioning of what Sachen says about this; however the fact is that Tantra is much more complicated to learn and practice for people in contemporary circumstances (not more nuanced than Dzogchen necessarily; yet definitely more complicated).
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri May 26, 2023 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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