The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Kai lord
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 5:53 pm Except for when we go to sleep; where sense-withdrawal kind of has to be the default for that.

Although that’s what Dream Yoga/Practice of the Night is for.
To those who wish to remain in rigpa 24/7, that instant of entering into deep sleep (before the dreams arise) presents the greatest obstacle.

An once in a decade visit to a dentist comes a close second though. :)
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:32 pm
To those who wish to remain in rigpa 24/7, that instant of entering into deep sleep (before the dreams arise) presents the greatest obstacle.
If one does not have the intimate instructions, sure.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Bapho »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:34 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:32 pm
To those who wish to remain in rigpa 24/7, that instant of entering into deep sleep (before the dreams arise) presents the greatest obstacle.
If one does not have the intimate instructions, sure.
You could please tell me what a relationship there is between deep sleepy and rigpa. ?

I add to the Kai Lord's comment. The deep sleep occurs before (that Kai indicated) and after the dream phase (REM). The cycle is repeated 4 or 5 times per night. In the last cycles it is easier to remember dreams or have lucid dreams because the non Rem phase is less deep.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by PeterC »

Bapho wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:47 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:34 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:32 pm
To those who wish to remain in rigpa 24/7, that instant of entering into deep sleep (before the dreams arise) presents the greatest obstacle.
If one does not have the intimate instructions, sure.
You could please tell me what a relationship there is between deep sleepy and rigpa. ?

I add to the Kai Lord's comment. The deep sleep occurs before (that Kai indicated) and after the dream phase (REM). The cycle is repeated 4 or 5 times per night. In the last cycles it is easier to remember dreams or have lucid dreams because the non Rem phase is less deep.
There are instructions for practice during sleep. However these are generally oral instructions that you would have had to have received.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Bapho wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:47 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:34 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:32 pm
To those who wish to remain in rigpa 24/7, that instant of entering into deep sleep (before the dreams arise) presents the greatest obstacle.
If one does not have the intimate instructions, sure.
You could please tell me what a relationship there is between deep sleepy and rigpa. ?

You need to learn these things from your teacher.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by madhusudan »

Here is a new clip of BAW addressing this issue for those who want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

TLDR: He claims that there are extremely rare genius-level practitioners who might not need to "achieve" shamatha, but for everyone else it is necessary. This, he says, is what he was taught by GR from multiple texts as well as from other Lamas, though he also mentions one without naming names who did not include shamatha in his Dzogchen.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by natusake »

madhusudan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:24 am TLDR: He claims that there are extremely rare genius-level practitioners who might not need to "achieve" shamatha, but for everyone else it is necessary.
So, it seems like he is distinguishing different capacities of practitioners, no?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by krodha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:44 am If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?
The definition seems like a shifting landscape.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:44 am If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?
It means a state of equipoise characterized by four or five distinct mental,factors.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by krodha »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:18 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:44 am If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?
It means a state of equipoise characterized by four or five distinct mental,factors.
Does this mean the first dhyāna is “achieving śamatha?”
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

krodha wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:05 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:18 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:44 am If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?
It means a state of equipoise characterized by four or five distinct mental,factors.
Does this mean the first dhyāna is “achieving śamatha?”
This is also what I was wondering.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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dharmafootsteps
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by dharmafootsteps »

krodha wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:05 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:18 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:44 am If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?
It means a state of equipoise characterized by four or five distinct mental,factors.
Does this mean the first dhyāna is “achieving śamatha?”
That’s what BAW means when he says “achieving śamatha”. Although sometimes he adds that “access concentration”, is enough.

As I remember, even his definition of access concentration requires a remarkably high standard of śamatha though.
Last edited by dharmafootsteps on Thu May 25, 2023 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by dharmafootsteps »

madhusudan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:24 am Here is a new clip of BAW addressing this issue for those who want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

TLDR: He claims that there are extremely rare genius-level practitioners who might not need to "achieve" shamatha, but for everyone else it is necessary. This, he says, is what he was taught by GR from multiple texts as well as from other Lamas, though he also mentions one without naming names who did not include shamatha in his Dzogchen.
Two interesting points to me.

1) He makes a big deal of meeting one Dzogchen teacher who didn’t explicitly include śamatha as a separate practice, and puzzles over why. This is surprising to me as it’s a common approach among many Dzogchen teachers afaik. It’s seems he’s had long and fairly deep training, but quite limited in exposure to different approaches.

2) He mentions “realizing emptiness” a few times, and mentions doing so before beginning trekcho. I don’t know how he defines realizing emptiness, but as I understand it this would be a much bigger deal than the insistence on achieving śamatha. It would make Dzogchen the practice of āryas only.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by krodha »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:34 am
madhusudan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:24 am Here is a new clip of BAW addressing this issue for those who want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

TLDR: He claims that there are extremely rare genius-level practitioners who might not need to "achieve" shamatha, but for everyone else it is necessary. This, he says, is what he was taught by GR from multiple texts as well as from other Lamas, though he also mentions one without naming names who did not include shamatha in his Dzogchen.
He mentions “realizing emptiness” a few times, and mentions doing so before beginning trekcho. I don’t know how he defines realizing emptiness, but as I understand it this would be a much bigger deal than the insistence on achieving śamatha. It would make Dzogchen the practice of āryas only.
The equipoise of an ārya that occurs upon realizing emptiness is the “state of trekchö,” so you’re right, his comment does not make sense.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

krodha wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:05 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:18 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:44 am If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?
It means a state of equipoise characterized by four or five distinct mental,factors.
Does this mean the first dhyāna is “achieving śamatha?”
Yes.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:34 am
2) He mentions “realizing emptiness” a few times, and mentions doing so before beginning trekcho. I don’t know how he defines realizing emptiness, but as I understand it this would be a much bigger deal than the insistence on achieving śamatha. It would make Dzogchen the practice of āryas only.
And of course this is why his teaching of Dzogchen is totally in the wrong direction.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

madhusudan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:24 am Here is a new clip of BAW addressing this issue for those who want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

TLDR: He claims that there are extremely rare genius-level practitioners who might not need to "achieve" shamatha, but for everyone else it is necessary. This, he says, is what he was taught by GR from multiple texts as well as from other Lamas, though he also mentions one without naming names who did not include shamatha in his Dzogchen.
What he said would actually make sense if you substitute "Dzogchen" with "special insight meditation".
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:58 amAnd of course this is why his teaching of Dzogchen is totally in the wrong direction.

The following is an older post of yours; but if he is saying that Shamatha is a necessary prerequisite for Dzogchen, and Shamatha can be attained in a single afternoon, then is he going in the wrong direction?

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:45 am
passel wrote:
Bottom line, meditation lineages have house styles and house interpretations of received texts, and they differ from one another. You can't assume that one yogi's 5th stage of Shamatha is the same as another yogi's 5th stage of Shamatha, or even that they mean the same thing by Shamatha.
A perfect śamatha is nothing more than the first dhyāna, attended by five mental factors: vitarka, vicara, prithi, sukha and ekagraha. This is a universal definition.

The idea that it takes a year to develop this experience is ridiculous. If you understand what you are doing, you can develop this experience in as little as a single afternoon.

Since the mental factors of vitarka and vicara drop off above the first dhyāna, when one 's motivation is to engage in vipaśyāna, it is not appropriate to cultivate anything more than this.

Then in another thread:

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:00 amYou ought to read the Abhidharmakośha where this definition of the first dhyāna is set out, then compare with the Bhavanakrama, Rongzom Chokyi Pandita, etc.

And krodha:

krodha wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:58 pm And according to Ontrul Tenpa'i Wangchuk [Per Lama Tony]: "The Adzom Drukpa camp puts the disciples to work on this [śamatha, etc.] for a period of four to five years. And Guru Mipham said:

'This is it! It might be causal ālaya, nevertheless, if you do not do it this way, authentic wisdom will not be born in your mindstream.'

Meaning that this is the method for placement of the mind! This method must be used and then, because of it, wisdom that is the result of the method can be realized."

Anyway, I’m not trying to argue that Shamatha practice cannot be bypassed; because I think that it can. It’s pretty clear in the Dzogchen teachings that Direct Introduction and/or Semdzin or Rushen (or even through Yantra Yoga or Anuyoga Sādhana) can be sufficient. However Shamatha can also be useful for stability:

Sādhaka wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:43 pm
natusake wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:02 amI have heard that practicing shamatha can increase the time that one remains in…

My Lama has said exactly that^. Yet he has also said that Shamatha is not Dzogchen proper. Both can be true.

ChNNR has also said that some of his students who weren’t ‘getting it’ via Upadesha teachings, were able to have a proper base after they started practicing Shamatha according to Semde’s Four Yogas
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana »

1) Not to complicate things, but is it possible to separate the scriptural definition of shamatha from a state of quiescence/calm abiding? Does anyone argue that a calm and settled mind is an obstacle to trekchod ,considering both the mental and energetic results that can arise from shamatha? (assuming one has had Direct introduction)?

What I'm getting at is that it seems odd to argue against the relative benefits of shamata within a Dzogchenpa's path if they can assist in the mental and energetic conditions that are conducive to stable trekchod / 'sustaining/maintaining the continuity' (ngang skyong ba).

I'm sure many of you have seen guidance or pith instructions on the importance of relaxation and the relationship between a steady mind and rigpa /direct perception. A practitioner might have very bright and brief flashes of rigpa but how long does that really last? I know trekchod and the chozags aren't limited to a calm state, but for those working on 'sustaining the continuity', I can't see the problem if someone chooses to practice in that way. If the chozags are beyond limitation then the calm state poses no obstacle. If a practitioner has unsettled energy, then shamatha can be prescriptive for aiding in recognition and stability, no? Are any of us free of energetic fluctuations whilst on the path? In a day?

2A) If the argument is more geared towards BAW's presentation, What might Dudjom Lingpa and other master's motivations have been for exploring shamatha in so much depth?

2B) Are his students really as confused as few posters seem to say they are? Or is this a generalization based on a handful of anecdotal accounts? Is it fair to say his teachings are detrimental to approaching Dzogchen?
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