Crazy Wisdom Question

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Kai lord
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Kai lord »

Yeah Tibetan Buddhists generally don't use term like "crazy wisdom", they simply call it yogic conduct or conduct of Mahasiddhas which simply mean if one is not a Mahasiddha then there are no reasons for anyone to behave like them.

No surprise that even Dalai lama is puzzled by the modern westernised term.
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jet.urgyen
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

yagmort wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:55 pm "crazy wisdom" is just a term invented by Trungpa. why do people feel it's necessary to elaborate on the "new age" concept is beyond me. there is no "crazy wisdom" is tantras. those who were called "nyonpas" (madmans), like Tsang Nyon Heruka, practiced what is called "trulzhug" (tib. brtul zhugs spyod pa). Trungpa used the tibetan term ye shes ’chol ba, which has nothing to do with trulzhug. trulzhug is the advanced practice consisting of 3 phases and has certain prerequisites.
i disagree on many things with the siddha's legacy, particularly on his displayed conduct, but it is part of his dharma and, if properly applied, it works to a point. it aint newage thing in a peyorative sense really. this is how i see this.
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Malcolm
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:02 pm Yeah Tibetan Buddhists generally don't use term like "crazy wisdom", they simply call it yogic conduct or conduct of Mahasiddhas which simply mean if one is not a Mahasiddha then there are no reasons for anyone to behave like them.

No surprise that even Dalai lama is puzzled by the modern westernised term.
The concept was explicitly linked by Trungpa to Dorje Drollo’s behavior.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PeterC »

jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:00 am
yagmort wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:55 pm "crazy wisdom" is just a term invented by Trungpa. why do people feel it's necessary to elaborate on the "new age" concept is beyond me. there is no "crazy wisdom" is tantras. those who were called "nyonpas" (madmans), like Tsang Nyon Heruka, practiced what is called "trulzhug" (tib. brtul zhugs spyod pa). Trungpa used the tibetan term ye shes ’chol ba, which has nothing to do with trulzhug. trulzhug is the advanced practice consisting of 3 phases and has certain prerequisites.
i disagree on many things with the siddha's legacy, particularly on his displayed conduct, but it is part of his dharma and, if properly applied, it works to a point. it aint newage thing in a peyorative sense really. this is how i see this.
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, provided you don't expect anyone to share them
jet.urgyen
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

PeterC wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:07 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:00 am
yagmort wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:55 pm "crazy wisdom" is just a term invented by Trungpa. why do people feel it's necessary to elaborate on the "new age" concept is beyond me. there is no "crazy wisdom" is tantras. those who were called "nyonpas" (madmans), like Tsang Nyon Heruka, practiced what is called "trulzhug" (tib. brtul zhugs spyod pa). Trungpa used the tibetan term ye shes ’chol ba, which has nothing to do with trulzhug. trulzhug is the advanced practice consisting of 3 phases and has certain prerequisites.
i disagree on many things with the siddha's legacy, particularly on his displayed conduct, but it is part of his dharma and, if properly applied, it works to a point. it aint newage thing in a peyorative sense really. this is how i see this.
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, provided you don't expect anyone to share them
yep, 0 expectation.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
PeterC
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PeterC »

jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:43 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:07 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:00 am

i disagree on many things with the siddha's legacy, particularly on his displayed conduct, but it is part of his dharma and, if properly applied, it works to a point. it aint newage thing in a peyorative sense really. this is how i see this.
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, provided you don't expect anyone to share them
yep, 0 expectation.
You can't really blame them. Mukpo isn't teaching anyone now, so why do we need to defend him: and there are many excellent teachers available today who are completely free from controversy, so why do we need to justify controversial behavior in general?
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yagmort
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:58 am The concept was explicitly linked by Trungpa to Dorje Drollo’s behavior.
so, is there anything related to "crazy" conduct in Dorje Drollo practices?


on a side note, in the book "Yogis of Ladakh" by John Crook and James Low there is the passage about Khamtag Rinpoche and Dorje Drollo
...Both Tsering and I felt we had been in the presence of an unusual man, "one who knew" was how we put it.. ..Rimpoche gradually revealed to us the nature of his personal attainment. He had first trained with Tripon Padma Chogyal in Tibet (one of the heart-disciples of Togden Shakya Shri) and also with the renowned Apho Rimpoche (grand-son of Togden Shakya Shri) from whom he had received initiations in the practice of Dorje Drollo. These meditations have sometimes been called 'Crazy Wisdom' but Rimpoche said:

"You Westerners are always stressing an inadequate aspect. This practice is full of energy but it is not at all crazy, whatever you mean by that. It is just simple sanity!"
there is also the note about Khamthag Rinpoche:
Jos Bachover, who lived for four months in Hemis, knew Khamtag Rimpoche well. He told me that Rimpoche had special karmic connections with Guru Rimpoche and claimed to possess his ritual knife (Phur. Ba). He was shown and photographed this extremely ancient ritual weapon and later gave me a copy of his photo. See Bachover, J. 1983.. Experiences in Hemis Gompa. In Kantowsky, D. and R. Sander. Recent research in Ladakh, Weltforum Verlag. München.
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Giovanni
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Giovanni »

jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:00 am
yagmort wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:55 pm "crazy wisdom" is just a term invented by Trungpa. why do people feel it's necessary to elaborate on the "new age" concept is beyond me. there is no "crazy wisdom" is tantras. those who were called "nyonpas" (madmans), like Tsang Nyon Heruka, practiced what is called "trulzhug" (tib. brtul zhugs spyod pa). Trungpa used the tibetan term ye shes ’chol ba, which has nothing to do with trulzhug. trulzhug is the advanced practice consisting of 3 phases and has certain prerequisites.
i disagree on many things with the siddha's legacy, particularly on his displayed conduct, but it is part of his dharma and, if properly applied, it works to a point. it aint newage thing in a peyorative sense really. this is how i see this.
“Works” how? A large group of aging men trying to recreate their youth, a smaller group dead of AIDS, and
Pema Chodren?
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heart
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

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I can't help feeling you are talking about this "crazy wisdom" as something you never experienced and that might explain your small minded attitude. Somehow we all seem to be looking for a warm and always kind father that with outmost care always fulfil all our wishes. I remember the first time I met Chimed Rigzin Rinpoche. We managed to arrange a teaching and over telephone teaching subjects and empowerments where decided. Rinpoche arrived with a very beautiful dark skinned woman in a nuns robe. For those days there was a lot of people that had come to listen to Rinpoche teach on the Bardo that evening and among the organisers there was a feeling of success. Then Rinpoche started by asking what he was supposed to talk about. One of the organisers answered that he was supposed to talk about the Bardo. Rinpoche answered that it would be a waste of time. The organiser, that was the person that had decided the teachings schedule with Rinpoche, had a well known short temper and what followed was a loud argument where Rinpoche promptly insisted that following the schedule was a waste time. This happened in front of all the people was a very weird experience. Rinpoche finally silenced the by now very upset organiser by rising a copy of the text called the big rigzin (it is a big text) and asked ; "Does everyone got this text?" after a silence (only a few copies been printed for the next few days of teaching) the organiser had to answer no. Then Rinpoche loudly scolded the organiser calling him worthless and stingy (he brought up money as a reason there was only a few copies). Rinpoche then started, with the nun, to do the long rigzin in english in front of all the surprised people that had gathered for the Bardo teachings. After one hour or so there was a break and at this point most of the people left, many requesting the money they payed back. Rinpoche finished the sadhana and the "teachings" where over. Later that night Rinpoche had an argument with the nun that he was trying to convince to climb into bed with him. She refused loudly. Was this crazy? Yes, it was for us. Was it wisdom? I don't know what to say but in a very uncomfortable way some wisdom was communicated. The rest of the teachings and empowerments was followed by a small group of people.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

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heart wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:23 am I can't help feeling you are talking about this "crazy wisdom" as something you never experienced and that might explain your small minded attitude. Somehow we all seem to be looking for a warm and always kind father that with outmost care always fulfil all our wishes. I remember the first time I met Chimed Rigzin Rinpoche. We managed to arrange a teaching and over telephone teaching subjects and empowerments where decided. Rinpoche arrived with a very beautiful dark skinned woman in a nuns robe. For those days there was a lot of people that had come to listen to Rinpoche teach on the Bardo that evening and among the organisers there was a feeling of success. Then Rinpoche started by asking what he was supposed to talk about. One of the organisers answered that he was supposed to talk about the Bardo. Rinpoche answered that it would be a waste of time. The organiser, that was the person that had decided the teachings schedule with Rinpoche, had a well known short temper and what followed was a loud argument where Rinpoche promptly insisted that following the schedule was a waste time. This happened in front of all the people was a very weird experience. Rinpoche finally silenced the by now very upset organiser by rising a copy of the text called the big rigzin (it is a big text) and asked ; "Does everyone got this text?" after a silence (only a few copies been printed for the next few days of teaching) the organiser had to answer no. Then Rinpoche loudly scolded the organiser calling him worthless and stingy (he brought up money as a reason there was only a few copies). Rinpoche then started, with the nun, to do the long rigzin in english in front of all the surprised people that had gathered for the Bardo teachings. After one hour or so there was a break and at this point most of the people left, many requesting the money they payed back. Rinpoche finished the sadhana and the "teachings" where over. Later that night Rinpoche had an argument with the nun that he was trying to convince to climb into bed with him. She refused loudly. Was this crazy? Yes, it was for us. Was it wisdom? I don't know what to say but in a very uncomfortable way some wisdom was communicated. The rest of the teachings and empowerments was followed by a small group of people.
I think it is not that the detractors of crazy wisdom have no personal experience of any transgressive behaviour of a teacher as a rule -- they may have experienced it, and it may have proved too much for them. Trungpa is not CR Lama (although I know close students of the latter who thought being close to him was hell, they would never say that hell was all there was to it).

I am not fond of Trungpa in the least. That said, there clearly is a style of some lay Nyingma lamas which is wild, unconventional and uncontrollable, and which rubs their students the wrong way (or so is experienced as it happens; later it may feel very different).

I have also come to believe that the really valuable time spent with the teacher is almost always emotionally very difficult (and possibly the closer and the more personal the relationship, the greater the discomfort or pain). That difficulty may come about due to anything and everything, including the teacher's behaviour, intentional or otherwise. Maybe looking at it all as if it were a Gestalt of sort, part of the dynamics of a scene, and not "the teacher's doing" would help.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PeterC »

heart wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:23 am I can't help feeling you are talking about this "crazy wisdom" as something you never experienced and that might explain your small minded attitude. Somehow we all seem to be looking for a warm and always kind father that with outmost care always fulfil all our wishes.
Most people don’t know what they’re looking for for a long time, and when they do know, they don’t ask questions like the OPs…
I remember the first time I met Chimed Rigzin Rinpoche
Good illustration of how there are a lot of things between Dharma Santa Claus and mukpo. And there is apparently unconventional behavior by lamas that has a legitimate teaching purpose which isn’t abusive, self-interested and exploitative.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

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Giovanni wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:55 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:00 am
yagmort wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:55 pm "crazy wisdom" is just a term invented by Trungpa. why do people feel it's necessary to elaborate on the "new age" concept is beyond me. there is no "crazy wisdom" is tantras. those who were called "nyonpas" (madmans), like Tsang Nyon Heruka, practiced what is called "trulzhug" (tib. brtul zhugs spyod pa). Trungpa used the tibetan term ye shes ’chol ba, which has nothing to do with trulzhug. trulzhug is the advanced practice consisting of 3 phases and has certain prerequisites.
i disagree on many things with the siddha's legacy, particularly on his displayed conduct, but it is part of his dharma and, if properly applied, it works to a point. it aint newage thing in a peyorative sense really. this is how i see this.
“Works” how? A large group of aging men trying to recreate their youth, a smaller group dead of AIDS, and
Pema Chodren?
It always surprises me how people in dharma are unable to understand that someone can do both benefit and harm.
Ive met some trungpa students and they are excellent practitioners and human beings. Who am i to question the value they got from their teacher? Also who am i to question the harm some received? Both are forms of gaslighting and im not interested in that. Particularly since im not clairvoyant.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:38 pm That said, there clearly is a style of some lay Nyingma lamas which is wild, unconventional and uncontrollable...
At least that is how they are able to employ their personality disorders for fun and profit.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:05 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:38 pm That said, there clearly is a style of some lay Nyingma lamas which is wild, unconventional and uncontrollable...
At least that is how they are able to employ their personality disorders for fun and profit.
Malcolm, would you say that Kunzang Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche had "personality disorders for fun and profit"? I heard some stories about him to and to tell you the truth I heard some wild stories about more or less all masters also yours. I can't say that they are true of course but the ones I experienced myself didn't in any way hurt me and sometimes helped me a lot. But that is just me.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Kai lord »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:55 pm
Giovanni wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:55 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:00 am

i disagree on many things with the siddha's legacy, particularly on his displayed conduct, but it is part of his dharma and, if properly applied, it works to a point. it aint newage thing in a peyorative sense really. this is how i see this.
“Works” how? A large group of aging men trying to recreate their youth, a smaller group dead of AIDS, and
Pema Chodren?
It always surprises me how people in dharma are unable to understand that someone can do both benefit and harm.
Ive met some trungpa students and they are excellent practitioners and human beings. Who am i to question the value they got from their teacher? Also who am i to question the harm some received? Both are forms of gaslighting and im not interested in that. Particularly since im not clairvoyant.
Its basically just another scenario of one man's poison is another man's meat.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:05 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:38 pm That said, there clearly is a style of some lay Nyingma lamas which is wild, unconventional and uncontrollable...
At least that is how they are able to employ their personality disorders for fun and profit.
No, really, I do not mean that.

It is obvious that what I wrote about can abused. It is obvious that there are predatory charlatans that will use it as an excuse to indulge their sadistic games. It is obvious that one has to be very, very, very discerning, and when one sees something that makes one very uneasy in the wrong way, one should not proceed.

I meant something different. I have had a taste of it, and there is no chance in hell I could mistake it for the behaviour of a person suffering from a personality disorder or even just being very mean (and I have met vastly more than a fair share of properly deranged souls, also, and perhaps especially, in the Dharmic world. Not speaking merely of students of the Dharma). There are Trungpas. Then there are CR Lamas.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:05 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:38 pm That said, there clearly is a style of some lay Nyingma lamas which is wild, unconventional and uncontrollable...
At least that is how they are able to employ their personality disorders for fun and profit.
No, really, I do not mean that.

It is obvious that what I wrote about can abused. It is obvious that there are predatory charlatans that will use it as an excuse to indulge their sadistic games.
Which is most of the time, IMO.

And I feel you may be overlooking the performative behavior, which may have a cultural context among Tibetans, but it lacking among westerners. (And if I hear that goddamn story about Naropa and the shoe one more time...)

I have a problem with the lionization of aberrant behavior among western students.

A lot of western students want their lamas to be Dudjom Lingpa, or Do Khyentse, but in reality, they are better off with someone who is kind and considerate, shows up on time, and does not put then through emotional roller coasters.

In Tibetan culture, a lot of "lama" behavior gets swept under the rug for social reasons, the same reasons that Catholic priests were able to abuse children for centuries with impunity, simply put, there is a distinct power differential, and especially considering that there was never a more than 15% literacy rate in pre-modern Tibet, with a very small fraction of that being literate women, well, you can see my point. I have encountered more than one lama whose behavior fits the very definition of a personality disorders.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:37 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:05 pm

At least that is how they are able to employ their personality disorders for fun and profit.
No, really, I do not mean that.

It is obvious that what I wrote about can abused. It is obvious that there are predatory charlatans that will use it as an excuse to indulge their sadistic games.
Which is most of the time, IMO.

And I feel you may be overlooking the performative behavior, which may have a cultural context among Tibetans, but it lacking among westerners. (And if I hear that goddamn story about Naropa and the shoe one more time...)

I have a problem with the lionization of aberrant behavior among western students.

A lot of western students want their lamas to be Dudjom Lingpa, or Do Khyentse, but in reality, they are better off with someone who is kind and considerate, shows up on time, and does not put then through emotional roller coasters.

In Tibetan culture, a lot of "lama" behavior gets swept under the rug for social reasons, the same reasons that Catholic priests were able to abuse children for centuries with impunity, simply put, there is a distinct power differential, and especially considering that there was never a more than 15% literacy rate in pre-modern Tibet, with a very small fraction of that being literate women, well, you can see my point. I have encountered more than one lama whose behavior fits the very definition of a personality disorders.
And so have I. I have also encountered lamas who are scheming manipulators, drinking alcoholics, petty empire builders and (above all and first and foremost) serial womanisers.

The crux of what I am saying is, what I talked about is not any of it, nor is it the "spontaneous" behaviour of a drug or sex addict. It is not a routine thing, it is not reactive, it is not automatic, and, crucially, it is not something that actually hurts one -- the crux is that it heals, though this may be understood only later.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:43 pm It is not a routine thing, it is not reactive, it is not automatic, and, crucially, it is not something that actually hurts one -- the crux is that it heals, though this may be understood only later.
Usually lamas who develop a reputation for unconventional behavior are pretty routine, no?

It's one thing to overlook some quirks in the behavior of one's teachers, quite another to justify them as "crazy wisdom" or evidence of awakened conduct.

See, we are not specifying specific acts here, we are only speaking in abstract.

At best we are left with St. Paul's definition of a miracle.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:20 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:43 pm It is not a routine thing, it is not reactive, it is not automatic, and, crucially, it is not something that actually hurts one -- the crux is that it heals, though this may be understood only later.
Usually lamas who develop a reputation for unconventional behavior are pretty routine, no?
Not necessarily. A word about quirky acts tends to spread very fast, even if there is not very much to chew on in the end.

I do not think it the miracle simile hits the spot. In my experience, the distance between a crook and someone who finds themselves employing unconventional behavior for the sake of their students is palpable. But the discussion may indeed be too abstract.
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