Yeah, that’s a good analogy, I get it.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:14 amThanks. Now I understand better what you are referring to.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:05 pm What I'm saying is that "free will" - (i.e. agency in the context Konstanin is asking about) is directly connected to awareness or unawareness of one's state at the time, where there is ignorance (as in one of three poisons ignorance specifically) there is by definition a lack of agency, because we are literally ignorant of causes, conditions, results, etc. Where there is awareness there is agency and ability to act with freedom.
It’s like, a person may free to walk wherever they want, but they are also limited by how far their legs will carry them.
But of course, this is because everything arises conditionally you begin with.
Everybody could theoretically become a Buddha tomorrow. Yet, here we are.
Awareness is like money. You can’t use more than you have.
How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm
Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
What are the right tools?Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pmThis passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?
Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera
... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:56 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
I still don't understand what the difference is. Check if it's easy.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pmThis passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?
Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera
... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...
If we are not present enough to discover when are on autopilot- to actually notice it-, we just continue on autopilot. It’s a common experience which you can test yourself, driving is a good way to test how present we can be because it so easily becomes an automatic activity where the mind begins wandering and is not present.
Have you ever tried Buddhist meditation? I ask because a lot of these questions are easily answerable via experience, rather than theory.
1) "This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness" - that is, it means that this is possible in a state of awareness. I agree, everything is correct. This is what Dhammawuddho Thera says, that we should be aware, and more often.
2) "not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" - meaning, the passage does not say that you can choose to be aware of each decision (event) by will power. But what is awareness? This is attention directed to an object and held on it by effort, that is, by willpower. That is, it is also a state of awareness. Life in a state of awareness without volitional effort is impossible, IMHO.
So what is the difference between these two descriptions? In my opinion they mean the same thing. Where did I go wrong?
PadmaVonSamba, can you explain to me?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:17 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Your senses are always on, like a radio that’s always on, that you can’t turn off.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?
Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera
... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control
You can decide where to set the radio dialbut starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react.
Because of your past habits, if you like classical music, you’ll tune into a classical music station. If you like rock music, you’ll tune into a rock station.This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created
Of course, you don’t have to. You might decide to try new music.
I tend to think in terms of analogies.
Mindfulness is simply watching what you are doing, what you are feeling. You can think at this moment, “I am feeling relaxed” and just acknowledge that without having opinions about relaxing. The more you practice this, the more you notice your state of mind, you become more aware of the different ways that you respond or react to things. Do you get angry quickly? Do you tend to let things pass? Are you easily swayed by emotions?
The more you do this the more obvious it becomes that this is all a play of passing thoughts.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
OK thanks!PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:41 pmYour senses are always on, like a radio that’s always on, that you can’t turn off.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?
Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera
... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no controlYou can decide where to set the radio dialbut starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react.Because of your past habits, if you like classical music, you’ll tune into a classical music station. If you like rock music, you’ll tune into a rock station.This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created
Of course, you don’t have to. You might decide to try new music.
I tend to think in terms of analogies.
Mindfulness is simply watching what you are doing, what you are feeling. You can think at this moment, “I am feeling relaxed” and just acknowledge that without having opinions about relaxing. The more you practice this, the more you notice your state of mind, you become more aware of the different ways that you respond or react to things. Do you get angry quickly? Do you tend to let things pass? Are you easily swayed by emotions?
The more you do this the more obvious it becomes that this is all a play of passing thoughts.
these are habitsBecause of your past habits, if you like classical music, you’ll tune into a classical music station. If you like rock music, you’ll tune into a rock station.
It is overcoming habits, conscious choiceOf course, you don’t have to. You might decide to try new music.
I tend to think in terms of analogies.
Right. Mindfulness arises when we directing attention through diligence, effort (volitional effort)Mindfulness is simply watching what you are doing, what you are feeling.
Conclusion:
It is obvious that one can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, be attentive due to diligence (volitional effort). This is awareness.
So what does Johnny Dangerous mean by saying that:
That due to the lack of awareness skills, volitional effort is not enough? And we will miss the event, constantly distracted?This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
I think you are making this all more complicated than it needs to be.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:24 pm So what does Johnny Dangerous mean by saying that:That due to the lack of awareness skills, volitional effort is not enough? And we will miss the event, constantly distracted?This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Johnny Dangerous.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pmThis passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?
Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera
... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created.
Please tell me what you mean, I am in doubt and confusion.
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
I think it was about this?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:59 am, edited 23 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Yes. People are not robots.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?
I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.
So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.
So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
I don’t know which part you want me to address, so let me put it this way, simply notice the process of distraction in yourself the next time you are upset enough that it takes your concentration off of whatever you are doing. That way you can answer your own questions.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 amJohnny Dangerous.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pmThis passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?
Please tell me what you mean, I am in doubt and confusion.
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
I think it was about this?
But yes, we are not totally trapped in our cages, over time we can see them as they are and even leave our cages behind altogether.
My root teacher had analogy of mirror vs glasses, talking as we are is trying to use glasses to examine things in a finer and finer way and to come to some definite conclusion. But the glasses can’t lead to real knowledge, we have to use the mirror and look at our own experiences to truly move past confusion.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm
Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
I'm just trying to understand what you wanted to say. What I wrote is what you meant? Can you explain please. It's important for me. You write "you cannnot just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" It just follows from your text that we cannot use the will. So how do you train mindfulness? Awareness cannot exist without will, can it? Attention is directed by will power, this is awareness. And without awareness there is no control. And how to be? Control impossible? Here I am confused.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:39 amI don’t know which part you want me to address, so let me put it this way, simply notice the process of distraction in yourself the next time you are upset enough that it takes your concentration off of whatever you are doing. That way you can answer your own questions.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 amJohnny Dangerous.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pm
This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.
Please tell me what you mean, I am in doubt and confusion.
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
I think it was about this?
But yes, we are not totally trapped in our cages, over time we can see them as they are and even leave our cages behind altogether.
My root teacher had analogy of mirror vs glasses, talking as we are is trying to use glasses to examine things in a finer and finer way and to come to some definite conclusion. But the glasses can’t lead to real knowledge, we have to use the mirror and look at our own experiences to truly move past confusion.
Is that what you meant?This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:37 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 amYes. People are not robots.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?
I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.
So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.
So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
I'll tell you, but first I ask you to deal with this issue. Dangerous Johnny writes "you cannnot just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" It just follows from this text that we cannot use the will. So how do you train mindfulness? Awareness cannot exist without will, can it? Attention is directed by will power, this is awareness. And without awareness there is no control. And how to be? Control impossible? Here I am confused.This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:37 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Again, I did not say there was no willpower involved, I said that we cannot be constantly mindful every moment by force of will, rather we apply the teachings, discern when we are able to increase our awareness and when we are not, and we continue this process.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:09 amPadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 amYes. People are not robots.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?
I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.
So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.
So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.I'll tell you, but first I ask you to deal with this issue. Dangerous Johnny writes "you cannnot just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" It just follows from this text that we cannot use the will. So how do you train mindfulness? Awareness cannot exist without will, can it? Attention is directed by will power, this is awareness. And without awareness there is no control. And how to be? Control impossible? Here I am confused.This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
This is completely testable in daily life, again just watch what your mind does next you drive, walk a familiar route or do anything where you would likely go into autopilot.
Set a firm, willful intention beforehand to be present and not distracted by thought for the duration of your walk or drive, and observe your mind.
This simple exercise will answer your questions.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Ok, I get it.
Will works in conjunction with other functions. Apparently this is the "right tools". (Attention, will, memory, determination, etc.) Right?
Thank you. That's why I asked. Still, Buddhism is very difficult to understand. And it's easy to misunderstand. One phrase and you are confused. Therefore, I am careful.
Will works in conjunction with other functions. Apparently this is the "right tools". (Attention, will, memory, determination, etc.) Right?
Thank you. That's why I asked. Still, Buddhism is very difficult to understand. And it's easy to misunderstand. One phrase and you are confused. Therefore, I am careful.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Thank you, totally agree with you, you explain very well! Big thanks to you! Well, maybe not difficult, but it's incredibly hard for me to understand.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 amYes. People are not robots.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?
I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.
So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.
So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 amSo, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
OK. in Buddhism, an "trained mediator" is a practitioner close in level to the "master of the ways of thought" described in the sutra? accordingly, level control "what kind of thought does he want, so he thinks. what thought he doesn't want, he doesn't think like that"?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
One doesn’t need to be a highly accomplished yogi. Anyone can do it. But basically, yes.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:23 pmPadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 amSo, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
OK. in Buddhism, an "trained mediator" is a practitioner close in level to the "master of the ways of thought" described in the sutra? accordingly, level control "what kind of thought does he want, so he thinks. what thought he doesn't want, he doesn't think like that"?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self
Ok, so our main tool, "weapon" is voluntary attention.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 amSo, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.Konstantin Sol wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.
But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
It is the same with the perception of thoughts. We cannot turn off thoughts? But we can arbitrarily direct our attention as we wish by choosing a thought. Anyone can do this, right?
But mindfulness is training. And concentration is also a workout.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.