How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:14 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:05 pm What I'm saying is that "free will" - (i.e. agency in the context Konstanin is asking about) is directly connected to awareness or unawareness of one's state at the time, where there is ignorance (as in one of three poisons ignorance specifically) there is by definition a lack of agency, because we are literally ignorant of causes, conditions, results, etc. Where there is awareness there is agency and ability to act with freedom.
Thanks. Now I understand better what you are referring to.
It’s like, a person may free to walk wherever they want, but they are also limited by how far their legs will carry them.
But of course, this is because everything arises conditionally you begin with.
Everybody could theoretically become a Buddha tomorrow. Yet, here we are.

Awareness is like money. You can’t use more than you have.
Yeah, that’s a good analogy, I get it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...
This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.
What are the right tools?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:56 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...
This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.

If we are not present enough to discover when are on autopilot- to actually notice it-, we just continue on autopilot. It’s a common experience which you can test yourself, driving is a good way to test how present we can be because it so easily becomes an automatic activity where the mind begins wandering and is not present.

Have you ever tried Buddhist meditation? I ask because a lot of these questions are easily answerable via experience, rather than theory.
I still don't understand what the difference is. Check if it's easy.

1) "This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness" - that is, it means that this is possible in a state of awareness. I agree, everything is correct. This is what Dhammawuddho Thera says, that we should be aware, and more often.
2) "not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" - meaning, the passage does not say that you can choose to be aware of each decision (event) by will power. But what is awareness? This is attention directed to an object and held on it by effort, that is, by willpower. That is, it is also a state of awareness. Life in a state of awareness without volitional effort is impossible, IMHO.
So what is the difference between these two descriptions? In my opinion they mean the same thing. Where did I go wrong?

PadmaVonSamba, can you explain to me?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:17 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control
Your senses are always on, like a radio that’s always on, that you can’t turn off.
but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react.
You can decide where to set the radio dial
This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created
Because of your past habits, if you like classical music, you’ll tune into a classical music station. If you like rock music, you’ll tune into a rock station.

Of course, you don’t have to. You might decide to try new music.
I tend to think in terms of analogies.

Mindfulness is simply watching what you are doing, what you are feeling. You can think at this moment, “I am feeling relaxed” and just acknowledge that without having opinions about relaxing. The more you practice this, the more you notice your state of mind, you become more aware of the different ways that you respond or react to things. Do you get angry quickly? Do you tend to let things pass? Are you easily swayed by emotions?
The more you do this the more obvious it becomes that this is all a play of passing thoughts.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:41 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control
Your senses are always on, like a radio that’s always on, that you can’t turn off.
but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react.
You can decide where to set the radio dial
This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created
Because of your past habits, if you like classical music, you’ll tune into a classical music station. If you like rock music, you’ll tune into a rock station.

Of course, you don’t have to. You might decide to try new music.
I tend to think in terms of analogies.

Mindfulness is simply watching what you are doing, what you are feeling. You can think at this moment, “I am feeling relaxed” and just acknowledge that without having opinions about relaxing. The more you practice this, the more you notice your state of mind, you become more aware of the different ways that you respond or react to things. Do you get angry quickly? Do you tend to let things pass? Are you easily swayed by emotions?
The more you do this the more obvious it becomes that this is all a play of passing thoughts.
OK thanks!
Because of your past habits, if you like classical music, you’ll tune into a classical music station. If you like rock music, you’ll tune into a rock station.
these are habits
Of course, you don’t have to. You might decide to try new music.
I tend to think in terms of analogies.
It is overcoming habits, conscious choice
Mindfulness is simply watching what you are doing, what you are feeling.
Right. Mindfulness arises when we directing attention through diligence, effort (volitional effort)
Conclusion:
It is obvious that one can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, be attentive due to diligence (volitional effort). This is awareness.
So what does Johnny Dangerous mean by saying that:
This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
That due to the lack of awareness skills, volitional effort is not enough? And we will miss the event, constantly distracted?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:24 pm So what does Johnny Dangerous mean by saying that:
This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
That due to the lack of awareness skills, volitional effort is not enough? And we will miss the event, constantly distracted?
I think you are making this all more complicated than it needs to be.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created.
This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.
Johnny Dangerous.
Please tell me what you mean, I am in doubt and confusion.
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
I think it was about this?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:59 am, edited 23 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Yes. People are not robots.

Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?

I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.

So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.

So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.
Johnny Dangerous.
Please tell me what you mean, I am in doubt and confusion.
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
I think it was about this?
I don’t know which part you want me to address, so let me put it this way, simply notice the process of distraction in yourself the next time you are upset enough that it takes your concentration off of whatever you are doing. That way you can answer your own questions.

But yes, we are not totally trapped in our cages, over time we can see them as they are and even leave our cages behind altogether.

My root teacher had analogy of mirror vs glasses, talking as we are is trying to use glasses to examine things in a finer and finer way and to come to some definite conclusion. But the glasses can’t lead to real knowledge, we have to use the mirror and look at our own experiences to truly move past confusion.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:39 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:51 pm

This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.
Johnny Dangerous.
Please tell me what you mean, I am in doubt and confusion.
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
I think it was about this?
I don’t know which part you want me to address, so let me put it this way, simply notice the process of distraction in yourself the next time you are upset enough that it takes your concentration off of whatever you are doing. That way you can answer your own questions.

But yes, we are not totally trapped in our cages, over time we can see them as they are and even leave our cages behind altogether.

My root teacher had analogy of mirror vs glasses, talking as we are is trying to use glasses to examine things in a finer and finer way and to come to some definite conclusion. But the glasses can’t lead to real knowledge, we have to use the mirror and look at our own experiences to truly move past confusion.
I'm just trying to understand what you wanted to say. What I wrote is what you meant? Can you explain please. It's important for me. You write "you cannnot just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" It just follows from your text that we cannot use the will. So how do you train mindfulness? Awareness cannot exist without will, can it? Attention is directed by will power, this is awareness. And without awareness there is no control. And how to be? Control impossible? Here I am confused.
This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.
Is that what you meant?
The likelihood of becoming aware of a thought, feeling, and, accordingly, the emergence of control and decision increases with the growth of awareness and our presence.
And just like that, “from scratch”, it will not work to see every decision by willpower. There is a high probability of escaping, switching to "autopilot". But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:37 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Yes. People are not robots.

Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?

I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.

So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.

So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
I'll tell you, but first I ask you to deal with this issue. Dangerous Johnny writes "you cannnot just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" It just follows from this text that we cannot use the will. So how do you train mindfulness? Awareness cannot exist without will, can it? Attention is directed by will power, this is awareness. And without awareness there is no control. And how to be? Control impossible? Here I am confused.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:37 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:09 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Yes. People are not robots.

Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?

I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.

So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.

So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
This passage is... not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will...
I'll tell you, but first I ask you to deal with this issue. Dangerous Johnny writes "you cannnot just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will" It just follows from this text that we cannot use the will. So how do you train mindfulness? Awareness cannot exist without will, can it? Attention is directed by will power, this is awareness. And without awareness there is no control. And how to be? Control impossible? Here I am confused.
Again, I did not say there was no willpower involved, I said that we cannot be constantly mindful every moment by force of will, rather we apply the teachings, discern when we are able to increase our awareness and when we are not, and we continue this process.

This is completely testable in daily life, again just watch what your mind does next you drive, walk a familiar route or do anything where you would likely go into autopilot.

Set a firm, willful intention beforehand to be present and not distracted by thought for the duration of your walk or drive, and observe your mind.

This simple exercise will answer your questions.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Ok, I get it.
Will works in conjunction with other functions. Apparently this is the "right tools". (Attention, will, memory, determination, etc.) Right?
Thank you. That's why I asked. Still, Buddhism is very difficult to understand. And it's easy to misunderstand. One phrase and you are confused. Therefore, I am careful.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
Yes. People are not robots.

Excuse me for asking, and you already said that there are some things about Buddhism that are difficult to understand (which it often is) but your line of questions seem like an effort to exactly pinpoint something very specific, as though there is some fundamental question that you are trying to get at from all sides, without actually revealing what that question is. Of course, I may be totally wrong in this assumption. But is there some big question that you are trying to resolve?

I’m just asking, because what we are discussing is not really very complex. We are aware of all kinds of things all the time. We hear the hum of an electronic device, or birds outside, and we aren’t even aware that we hear them. We also feel where our elbows are but we don’t notice it unless maybe we lean on something sharp. But through our senses and sense consciousness, we are always aware, meaning that whether or not we are paying attention, we are aware.
We can choose to focus on one thing or another. If someone says, “shhh! Did you hear that?” everyone’s attention will be sharply focused on hearing. In fact, if you are eating food at that moment, then briefly you will not even taste the food, because all of your attention is on hearing.

So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.

So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
Thank you, totally agree with you, you explain very well! Big thanks to you! Well, maybe not difficult, but it's incredibly hard for me to understand.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.

OK. in Buddhism, an "trained mediator" is a practitioner close in level to the "master of the ways of thought" described in the sutra? accordingly, level control "what kind of thought does he want, so he thinks. what thought he doesn't want, he doesn't think like that"?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:23 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.

OK. in Buddhism, an "trained mediator" is a practitioner close in level to the "master of the ways of thought" described in the sutra? accordingly, level control "what kind of thought does he want, so he thinks. what thought he doesn't want, he doesn't think like that"?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
One doesn’t need to be a highly accomplished yogi. Anyone can do it. But basically, yes.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Konstantin Sol
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:14 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:10 am But if you practice mindfulness, the chances will increase, and over time you will become more aware.

But that doesn't mean we can't do anything. We have opportunities. Efforts of will need to be applied, they are needed in order to practice mindfulness.
So, even though we can’t consciously shut off awareness, we can control what we are paying attention to. So, if you accidentally stick yourself with a pin, you can’t just decide that you don’t feel it. But if it happens a lot, after a while you don’t even notice when it happens. I used to work with plywood a lot and sometimes I’d get big splinters in my hand and not even realize it until I got home. But if we get a shot at the doctors office, we can look away at that moment, maybe look at a picture on the wall, and that helps to block out the sensation of the needle.

So, to some extent, we do have some control like that. And a person who has very good control over their mind’s behavior and reactions will do better than those who don’t. That’s why babies and toddlers might scream and cry when the doctor’s needle goes in, but adults don’t. Some adults grit their teeth and shut their eyes tight, others don’t even blink. A trained meditator or yogi can direct their mind’s activity with great skill, like how an artist controls a paint brush. You can look at your own daily examples and see how all day long you control and direct your thoughts. It’s not a big mystery.
Ok, so our main tool, "weapon" is voluntary attention.

It is the same with the perception of thoughts. We cannot turn off thoughts? But we can arbitrarily direct our attention as we wish by choosing a thought. Anyone can do this, right?

But mindfulness is training. And concentration is also a workout.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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