Crazy Wisdom Question

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Muddy343
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Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Muddy343 »

Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Everyone’s different, aren’t they?
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
EMPTIFUL.
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PeterC
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PeterC »

Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
It’s mostly bullshit these days anyway

:popcorn:
jet.urgyen
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
unconventional behavior is not for everyone.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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cyril
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by cyril »

Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?

On October 2014, when conferring the empowerment of 1,000-armed Avalokitesvara in Vancouver, BC, HH The Dalai Lama mentioned he never met one single person, teacher or not, possessor of this so-called crazy wisdom. Crazy, yes, he said he met plenty of crazies; but crazy wisdom, nope, not a single one. He urged the audience, in case anyone knew one such type, to introduce that person to him for he was very interested in meeting one such individual.
I was there and I heard that with my own ears.
Just sayin'...
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yagmort
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by yagmort »

nowadays "crazy wisdom" mostly is just a term to cover up abuse and manipulations.
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Josef
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Josef »

yagmort wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:35 am nowadays "crazy wisdom" mostly is just a term to cover up abuse and manipulations.
This.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Lingpupa
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Lingpupa »

"Crazy wisdom" was not much of a thing in old Tibet. It was popularized in the West by the Mukpo guy as an excuse for his (cough) antics in the days when we were naive enough to believe almost anything from a real Tibetan.
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Muddy343
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Muddy343 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:52 am Everyone’s different, aren’t they?
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
Yeah
muni
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by muni »

Using "crazy wisdom" as a way to allow abuse without being limited.

However it is easy to call an action by a master as being bad or crazy when the action is not seen in dream, as a help to awaken.

Many would love sweet masters, but they cannot offer us help to awaken out of suffering when they would be limited to only serve the cause of suffering.
Last edited by muni on Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tao
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Tao »

yagmort wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:35 am nowadays "crazy wisdom" mostly is just a term to cover up abuse and manipulations.
And incomplete path.
Kai lord
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Kai lord »

Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
In our times where one gets to see lots of craziness, you need more people who are sane, not join in the craziness.
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sun-and-moon
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by sun-and-moon »

It depends what do you mean by crazy wisdom. One of my kind teachers, late Chimed Rigdzin Rinpoche, had a kind of unconventional way of teaching. Sometimes he used to shout or be painfully straightforward to the point of me falling apart, crying. But then something was released and opened up. It had to do with my neurotic pattern of confusion and indecisivness. I witnessed that also with other of his students.

Also H.H.late Mindroling Trichen Rinpoche is said to give "wrathful" blessing, and after that the recipient felt purified or something changed in him or her into better.

I believe that great enlightened masters, who genuinely had spiritual power, needed not to rely only on conventional dharma. This is not a ferry tale, but I experienced it.

Of course, I also saw ordinary neurotic burst of anger, or ordinary emotional reaction, even from those who have title of a tulku or a rinpoche. Bottom line is if there is benefit or improvement at the end of the day, or one remains with more pain and confusion. Its hard to judge form situation itself. Those precious wisdom teachers never used such means to fragile, insecure students, but instead were kind and supportive. Ability to change attitude and way of relating - depending on what a student needed in a given moment - is not a domain of an ordinary person. These days, with people being fragile and insecure, I think wisdom teachers use such means only to close students, who are very devoted, and for whom they especially care. These are my observations.
Giovanni
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Giovanni »

PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:18 am
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
It’s mostly bullshit these days anyway

:popcorn:
I suspect that if the most recent most notorious “crazy wisdom” teacher were active now it would be very different if he was genuine, and I have no view either way.
When he arrived in the west people were still living in post Christian era that demanded conformity.
Now, anything goes. He would probably dress like a bank manager, teach a prosperity Dharma, and eat TV dinners.
That would be “Crazy Wisdom” 2023.
amanitamusc
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by amanitamusc »

Stearns refers to it as "deliberate behavior" in this book.

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Soma999
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Soma999 »

Some highly realised beings are not restricted by common rules and can be seen as crazy. There has been some indian yogis who mastered this. For exemple they could heal someone by hitting them, worshipping with shit and so on.

Those people are extremly rare. Now, crazy wisdom, as it has been said, is a way to cover all kind of unethical behaviour, sometime even criminal. It is sad to see that, and even more sad to see some people find justification for that.

Before desiring crazy wisdom, people should first find wisdom, it is not so common those days.
Kai lord
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Kai lord »

sun-and-moon wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:34 am It depends what do you mean by crazy wisdom.
I think he meant crazy wisdom as the display of unconventional conduct in most of their activities by Mahasiddhas like Virupa. Luipa, Tilopa, etc.

Your example is closer to a very mild case of how Marpa treated Milarepa.
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Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

My understanding is that ‘crazy wisdom’ is termed ‘crazy’ because the methodology doesn’t seem logical. In other words, the medicine doesn’t seem to correlate with the illness.

“Reverse psychology” is a very basic example of crazy wisdom. You can tell a screaming toddler to go ahead and scream as loudly as they can when you want them to be stop screaming. Then they stop. How is that even logical? But it works, because with your wisdom you know the toddler is trying to be defiant and wants to do the opposite of what you say.

Marpa had his student, Milarepa, build him a stone tower and then tear it all down again. WTF? was is crazy or what?

During the 1970s, Chogyam Trungpa instructed his hippie followers to start wearing suits and ties. Why would a Buddhist need to wear a business suit? He understood they were ego-clinging, attached to the identity of rejecting conventional rules, being without discipline, which they mistakenly perceived as non-attachment.

To reduce crazy wisdom to simply being a license to abuse people is missing the point. Of course, there can certainly be crazy without wisdom. Plenty of teachers are capable of that.

The human mind isn’t always rational. Love, anger, impulse, there are all sorts of irrational mind patterns.

Also, people can get so locked into self-destructive patterns that no amount of logical explanation will help them. They can’t see what’s right in front of them. There was recent string of posts on this forum from someone who kept asking for explanations but when people gave them logical explanations, all they could do was to say ‘no, I don’t think so”. It’s like someone asking for directions out of a dark forest and when you tell them where the actual trail is, they say “I don’t see how that can be” without even looking to see if there’s a clear path there or not. That’s when a true zen master bonks them with the stick and they get realization. But it’s not for everyone.

An actual crazy wisdom teacher can connect to that illogical, irrational mind pattern like a rider jumps on a horse, and can help that person to attain realization. But just as a bad psychiatrist can screw people up, someone who hasn’t reached a level of wisdom to really be able to apply crazy wisdom methods can do some damage.
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yagmort
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by yagmort »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:09 pm Marpa had his student, Milarepa, build him a stone tower and then tear it all down again...
that's just Tsang Nyon Heruka's spiritual moving fiction.

Marpa treated Milarepa just fine. he didn't ask him to build towers. there are at least 2 books that cover this subject: "biographies of Rechungpa" by Roberts and "the yogin and the madman" by Quintman. Quintman got earliest biography of Milarepa written from Gambopa's recollections translated, which was mentioned by Roberts.
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PeterC
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PeterC »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:09 pm During the 1970s, Chogyam Trungpa instructed his hippie followers to start wearing suits and ties. Why would a Buddhist need to wear a business suit? He understood they were ego-clinging, attached to the identity of rejecting conventional rules, being without discipline, which they mistakenly perceived as non-attachment.
If mukpo’s ‘craziness’ was limited to requiring his sangha to be well-dressed, I doubt anyone would have had an issue with him, or found him particularly crazy. The reason people think ‘crazy wisdom’ is more often an excuse for abuse is because for Mukpo and others, it was.
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