Bardo Thodol Question

[conebeckham]

I've stated above that I don't think this is the case with the bardo thodol, and just listened to a urbandharmaNC podcast on karma where the teacher recommends against hearing any bardo teachings if one isn't a practitioner.

I have never heard that the Song of the Vajra is for anyone to sing.

Then how would you interpret this:

”This teaching is called the Great Liberation through Hearing because even those who have committed the five inexpiable crimes will certainly attain liberation on hearing the recitation of its words.

“Therefore, read it aloud in public places. The text should be circulated. Since awareness becomes nine times clearer during the intermediate state, even if this teaching is heard only once and even if its meaning is not comprehended, at the moment of death it will be remembered without a single word forgotten. For this reason, it should be read aloud to everyone during their lifetime.

“Read it aloud next to the pillow of those who are sick, next to the bodies of the dead. It should be spread near and far.”

Context is important. Pretty sure that text arose in a time and place where those instructions made sense. Of course, you may say that Guru Pema envisioned the future where Vajrayana spread to the savage lands of Monotheism or Secular Humanists. I am not so sure.

I say this tongue in cheek, but hope you understand my gist. Be careful doing Chod in your local cemetery. You know?

[conebeckham]

Honestly, I think reading the Bardo Thodol to someone who is not Vajrayana is a waste of time for that person.

Which one is “that” person?
The reader or the deceased?
If the deceased,
What if it is the deceased teenage son of a lama, technically Vajrayana, raised in a devotional home but more into sports?

In other words, defining labels can be vague.

That Person is the deceased person.
In your hypothetical scenario, it would makes sense.....that teenage son having been exposed to Vajrayana to some degree.

[heart]

Honestly, I think reading the Bardo Thodol to someone who is not Vajrayana is a waste of time for that person. Depending on circumstances, it may also be negative for those left behind. What if the person was brought up in a monotheistic faith? Do you think a ritual Jangchok or reading the BakChak Rangdrol would be a good idea?

I, and other of Dzongsar Khyentse's disciples, do jangchog for all those that are dead. Pretty sure it doesn't hurt.

Well, yes....if you do it remotely, not at the side of the corpse, with family members present, I think it's fine. Great, in fact.

I have also done that. But I have done Jangchoks for friends, at bedside, at funerals, etc. Only when those people were Vajrayana Buddhists.

Seems reasonable.

[pemachophel]

Even among Himalayan Vajrayanists, there are differences of opinion about the Bardo Thodrol and who should read it/who it should be read to. Leaving aside the issue of who it may be read to, I think I can safely say that the reader should have completed ngondro, have received the Shi-thro empowerment, and have received the lung and thri of the text. If the recipient has also completed those things and, even more, done a retreat on the Shi-thro and practiced the prayers while alive, I think they are going to get much more benefit.

For the deceased who has not done ngondro, not received empowerment, and not received Bardo/Shi-thro teachings while alive, I agree with Cone, phowa and/or jang-chog/naydren are better choices. If one cannot do either of those, then reading Zang Chod Monlam, saying the Akshobhya mantra/dharani, saying other dharanis, lighting candles, making offerings in the deceased's name, etc. are the usual practices in my experience.

In general, I think we should remember that the Bardo Thodrol is a Dzogchen text.

[Natan]

Bardo Thodrol is very special. One can be led to enlightenment at death without empowerment by a lama. It lies in a gray area. It's always best to get a transmission. But if you pick up the practices in the text related with Vajrasattva and Guhyagarbha you can recite them with devotion and it's wonderful. Okay?

Yeah it is unique in that sense, almost like Pith Instructions that non-Initiates are allowed to hear.

It seems that the Hundred-Syllable, the Song of the Vajra, and the Aspiration of Samantabhadra, are all Mantras that can be recited to those who haven’t received Empowerment, as a cause of eventual Liberation for them, even if there are some conditions that may apply on the part of the reciter….

Liberation by hearing is a wonderful wonderful thing