Meditation in motion

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Jokingfish
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Meditation in motion

Post by Jokingfish »

Well, ive been looking on this a lot, many have said that meditation in movement is above meditation in stillness: what is meditation in movement, and why is it better?

For example:
Meditation in the midst of activity is a thousand times superior to meditation in stillness.
~Hakuin Ekaku
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:53 pm Well, ive been looking on this a lot, many have said that meditation in movement is above meditation in stillness: what is meditation in movement, and why is it better?

For example:
Meditation in the midst of activity is a thousand times superior to meditation in stillness.
~Hakuin Ekaku
It’s relatively easy to maintain awareness and meditative concentration when sitting on one’s butt, maybe alone, without distractions.
It’s much harder out in the world full of conflicts.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
master of puppets
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by master of puppets »

ı think the stillness you get in both cases are the same.

may be you can fake the mind more easily along practice in motion, action or work..but some may disagree

ı also wonder what others think
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Sādhaka
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by Sādhaka »

It’s all about settling the karmic winds (not so easy to do in the midst of tumultuous society, although doing so would be called “integration”); and failing that, inserting the winds into the central-channel.

Elaborating on it any more than that, on an open forum, wouldn’t be “appropriate”. Consult a qualified Lama
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
Vasana
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by Vasana »

It depends on the context of the text you shared. Why not research the type of meditation view he taught?

Movement could mean different things.
It could be referring to maintaining meditation within the movement of thought, when experiencing the union of genuine shamatha-vipassana. Most only experience the stilling part or have teachings that say movement doesn't correspond with the particular samadhi /meditative absorbtion they are training in.

It could also simply mean walking while maintaining a meditative state.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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JimTempleman
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by JimTempleman »

When you say “Meditation in Motion” to me it makes me think of one of the more spiritual martial arts like Aikido (the way of harmony with Ki) or Tai Chi. Ki is the Japanese word for Chi, and it is a form of internal energy/life force, flows through you and throughout the universe (or the dharmakaya if you prefer). Qi is another word for Chi.
Such Chi based martial arts are particularly good for developing Mind-Body Unification (/Coordination/Integration).
There are also exercises like Qi-Gong and Ki-Testing in Ki-Aikido that let you develop this kind of Mind-Body Unification without studying a syllabus of martial arts techniques.
I found the Ki-Testing in Ki-Aikido to be a fairly quick and easy way of developing how to experience and apply Ki.

Then the question becomes: How does such a practice fit into a more conventional Mahayana Buddhist meditation framework?
I found the answer in Chan Master Sheng Yen’s writings describing his Stages of Chan Development. I will sketch out his levels at the end of this message, but my point is that Chi-oriented martial arts & exercises are useful for reaching the “elementary level of one-mind.” In other words, it provides a solid basis for deeper stages of meditation.
One of the challenges for many people who practice only seated meditation is trying to find the right balance between relaxation and body tone. Or more importantly, how do you continuously maintain a relaxed body and mind while sitting with full awareness? This is something you learn more readily by practicing under a wide range of conditions, with feedback from someone working with you.

Chan Master Sheng Yen’s Stages of Chan Development
Quotations from his book “Subtle Wisdom”:
“The training of the mind in Ch’an practice can be divided into three levels.”
“How do we move from [0] scattered mind to [1] concentrated mind to [2] one-mind, and finally to [3] no-mind? We use the methods of Ch’an.”

He then goes on to subdivide the second level:
2.1. Elementary level of One-Mind [Mind-Body Unification]:
“If this state of mind is clear and sustained, then it is an elementary level of one mind, the stage after concentrated mind. You and your method of practice become one. Body and mind are no longer separate but are fused or absorbed into a single stream of concentration. You may feel that your body has lost its weight or heaviness and disappeared. What you really experience is a fully unified and integrated body and mind, and a concentrated mind.”
2.2. Intermediate level of One-Mind:
“this unified mind can deepen and become more refined until you feel that there is no distinction between inside and outside or between yourself and environment. It feels as though the one and the two are absolutely unified in oneness.”
2.3. Deeper level of One-Mind:
“Then the distinction or division between thoughts disappears. There is a steady single point of concentration, or stream of concentration. A single thought, if you will.”
3. No-Mind:
“If that one thought disappears, one-mind also disappears, and you experience no-mind: you see your intrinsic nature.”
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Tao
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by Tao »

>It could be referring to maintaining meditation within the movement of thought, when experiencing the union of genuine shamatha-vipassana.

In Mahamudra most probably this will be the meaning. It's the main Mahamudra practice after the insight into the nature of mind
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conebeckham
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by conebeckham »

Tao wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:52 am >It could be referring to maintaining meditation within the movement of thought, when experiencing the union of genuine shamatha-vipassana.

In Mahamudra most probably this will be the meaning. It's the main Mahamudra practice after the insight into the nature of mind
This was my initial thought as well. It's the training on bringing thoughts onto the path--
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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JimTempleman
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by JimTempleman »

I’m no expert on Hakuin. But I do remember him writing about Tozan’s Five Ranks, which are:

Tozan’s Five Ranks: (See Thomas Cleary (1997) “Kensho: The Heart of Zen”)
1. The Relative Absolute
2. The Absolute Relative
3. Coming from Within the Absolute
4. Arriving in Both
5. Attainment in Both
Deciphering what each of them means is challenging, to say the least.

But my point is that Hakuin gave the following admonition to practitioners who attain the First Rank and then become attached to it:
“Therefore, although inside and out may be perfectly clear as long as you are hidden away in an unfrequented place where there is absolute quiet and nothing to do, yet you are powerless as soon as perception touches upon different worldly situations, with all their clamor and emotion, and you are beset by a plethora of miseries. It was in order to cure this serious illness that the rank of the absolute relative was defined. …”

Notice that, here at least: “meditation in the midst of activity" -vs- "meditation in stillness” has more to do with being exposed to worldly situations than about practicing while moving one’s body (or mind). -This is what PadmaVonSamba originally suggested.

Clearly Hakuin viewed the higher ranks to be far “superior to meditation” at the first rank.

It would not surprise me to find that the fourth and fifth ranks are related to “maintaining meditation within the movement of thought, when experiencing the union of genuine shamatha-vipassana.” But it’s hard to tell if that’s what Hakuin's quote about “meditation in the midst of activity” was referring to.
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by Meido »

JimTempleman wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:52 pm Clearly Hakuin viewed the higher ranks to be far “superior to meditation” at the first rank.
It is an error to view the five ranks solely as a kind of progression or ladder of realization, from lower to higher. In fact, they are different aspects or ways of seeing connected to awakening, and one can (must) move freely between them. While it is true that the first cannot be attached to or reified, it nevertheless signifies the entrance gate of seeing one's nature (kensho/satori), and so must be recognized as the basis of all genuine practice.

In Hakuin's teaching these so-called ranks are penetrated exhaustively in koan practice, and among other things they serve to point out the meat of the post-awakening training, for example the cultivation of seamless hokkyo zanmai (jewel mirror samadhi, i.e. the unified samadhi-prajna).

It is really not useful to intellectualize about such things. Their significance is only grasped in sanzen with a qualified teacher.
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by Vasana »

JimTempleman wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:52 pm
Notice that, here at least: “meditation in the midst of activity" -vs- "meditation in stillness” has more to do with being exposed to worldly situations than about practicing while moving one’s body (or mind). -This is what PadmaVonSamba originally suggested.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Perception of 'worldly situations is still essentially movement within the senses and mind.
The Buddha taught mindfulness and meditation connected with walking, not just sitting or laying down. The most skilled and experienced practitioners have the stability that doesn't decrease from sitting to walking, or they are able to refresh those samadhi's much more readily.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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JimTempleman
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by JimTempleman »

Meido wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:45 am
JimTempleman wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:52 pm Clearly Hakuin viewed the higher ranks to be far “superior to meditation” at the first rank.
It is an error to view the five ranks solely as a kind of progression or ladder of realization, from lower to higher. In fact, they are different aspects or ways of seeing connected to awakening, and one can (must) move freely between them. While it is true that the first cannot be attached to or reified, it nevertheless signifies the entrance gate of seeing one's nature (kensho/satori), and so must be recognized as the basis of all genuine practice.
You are right, of course.
But I was trying to relate Hakuin’s admonition regarding the first rank to the OP’s question about the quote:

“Meditation in the midst of activity is a thousand times superior to meditation in stillness.”
~Hakuin Ekaku

I should have said:
Hakuin viewed the higher ranks that afford "meditation in the midst of activity" to be far “superior to meditation” at the first rank which only supports "meditation in stillness."
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Tao
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by Tao »

Take it or not as it's Mahamudra and not Zen but:

This being so, as long as your naturally aware mindful
presence has not wandered off, it is still the meditation
training, whether your state of mind is utterly empty,
remains serenely blissful, whether thoughts flow in a rush or
manifold perceptions appear vividly. Therefore, you do not
need to entertain doubts about these expressions of the
natural state. Rather than maintaining a sense of natural
ease, there is no point in trying to arrest or block off the
flow of thought or perception for the sake of remaining
thoughtfree.
The reason is this: just like before, when you cleared up
uncertainties and during the pointing-out instruction,
various entities such as mind-essence, thought, perceptual
experience and so forth do not exist. Rather, they are the
unconfined expressions of this single mind, just like the
ocean itself is what is seen as waves. Therefore, this
natural flow of mind does not differ in quality, no matter how
it appears.
This being so, you should sustain presence of mind in
stillness when calm, in thinking when thoughts occur and
in perceiving when perceptions take place. Do not deliberately
try to think when still or prevent a thought when it
occurs. No maHer what your state may be -lucidly clear,
totally empty, suffused with bliss or completely restless -
simply remain undistracted. You do not need to modify or
correct anything.

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal
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JimTempleman
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by JimTempleman »

Tao wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:41 pm Take it or not as it's Mahamudra and not Zen but:

... just like the ocean itself is what is seen as waves. Therefore, this
natural flow of mind does not differ in quality, no matter how
it appears.
This being so, you should sustain presence of mind in
stillness when calm, in thinking when thoughts occur and
in perceiving when perceptions take place. Do not deliberately
try to think when still or prevent a thought when it
occurs. No matter what your state may be -lucidly clear,
totally empty, suffused with bliss or completely restless -
simply remain undistracted. You do not need to modify or
correct anything.
What you said reminds me of what I was reading in the Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
-- Translated from the Chinese of Buddhatrata by Ven. Guo-go Bhikshu, which can be found in Chan Master Sheng Yen’s (2013) Complete Enlightenment:
" … [The Tathagata's] ocean of wisdom which encompasses the whole dharmadhatu clearly illuminates all phenomena as empty space. This is called the Tatha-gata's accordance with the nature of Enlightenment

Virtuous man, all bodhisattvas and sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age should at no time give rise to deluded thoughts! [Yet], when their deluded minds arise, they should not extinguish them. In the midst of deluded concepts, they should not add discriminations. Amidst nondiscrimination, they should not distinguish true reality. If sentient beings, upon hearing this Dharma method, believe in, understand, accept, and uphold it and do not generate alarm and fear, they are ‘in accordance with the nature of enlightenment.’"
So maybe there is not quite so much difference between Mahamudra and Chan/Zen after all.

I find the way you put it easier to follow.
Thank you for offering it.
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Tao
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by Tao »

>What you said

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is extremely clear. I have understood a lot of things thanks to him.

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
FieldBob
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by FieldBob »

Climbing is by far the best meditation exercise i have tried

Its like yoga, dancing, obstacle running track at the same time.
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KeithA
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Re: Meditation in motion

Post by KeithA »

Jokingfish wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:53 pm Well, ive been looking on this a lot, many have said that meditation in movement is above meditation in stillness: what is meditation in movement, and why is it better?

For example:
Meditation in the midst of activity is a thousand times superior to meditation in stillness.
~Hakuin Ekaku
It is best summed up in the quote in my signature. When practice is at the absolute center of our life, moving or not moving isn't important.

_/|\_
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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