How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

If you're new to the forum or new to Buddhism, this is the best place for your questions. Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:57 pm So. And the mind can choose another song and focus on it as it pleases. Right?
Supposedly, Girl From Ipanema is the song that removes tunes stuck in your head.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Kim O'Hara »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:55 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:57 pm So. And the mind can choose another song and focus on it as it pleases. Right?
Supposedly, Girl From Ipanema is the song that removes tunes stuck in your head.
:rolling:
Not quite. Girl From Ipanema is the song that removes other tunes stuck in your head.
Getting rid of Girl From Ipanema afterwards is an extremely advanced practice.

:smile:
Kim
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Thank you))
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:28 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:57 pm So. And the mind can choose another song and focus on it as it pleases. Right?
Ideally, yes.
But it does take practice in being aware of what is going on in the mind and focusing on what we choose to focus on. It has been compared to developing a mental muscle, making it stronger through repeated exercise.

:namaste:
Kim

OK. That is, the body is not "mine" does not mean that the mind can do nothing with the body. The mind can direct the body, perform actions, deeds, improve karma, etc. but does not have absolute power over him.

Also with thoughts. The mind can direct attention to thoughts as it wants and needs, and try to ignore unnecessary thoughts, but there is no complete control over them.

Right?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:02 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:28 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:57 pm So. And the mind can choose another song and focus on it as it pleases. Right?
Ideally, yes.
But it does take practice in being aware of what is going on in the mind and focusing on what we choose to focus on. It has been compared to developing a mental muscle, making it stronger through repeated exercise.

:namaste:
Kim

OK. That is, the body is not "mine" does not mean that the mind can do nothing with the body. The mind can direct the body, perform actions, deeds, improve karma, etc. but does not have absolute power over him.

Also with thoughts. The mind can direct attention to thoughts as it wants and needs, and try to ignore unnecessary thoughts, but there is no complete control over them.

Right?
Vary nearly right, I think.

What your statement of things forgets to mention is the possibility of getting better at directing the body and the mind. We know people can do that, so we should expect that we can do it too.

:namaste:
Kim
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Understood thanks!
So, the picture is something like this.

Thoughts appear and disappear depending on the causes. The mind may or may not follow these thoughts. There is a choice.
Also, the mind can be directed at will to any other thoughts (for example, we need, good ones) and fix your attention on them. This is mindfulness training.
At first it is very difficult, the mind will always stray into distracting thoughts, but with practice, training, these actions become easier to perform. These opportunities are used to develop the mind, cultivate virtue and achieve enlightenment (the practice of "right effort"), well, in general, to improve life.

Right?

"Noble Eightfold Path"
Bhikhu Bodhi
"A peaceful mind is the path to wisdom
When the mind is calm and collected, it can be used to develop insight. Having developed the right concentration, when the mind becomes a powerful tool, we direct it to the four bases of attention, contemplating the body, feelings, states of mind and thoughts".

14th Dalai Lama Thubten Chodron
Buddhism. One teacher, many traditions
"...Experienced
practitioners are able to control their mind and direct it. For this they
based on causes and conditions. By training their mind through diligent practice, they
create causes for the emergence of virtuous mental states...
Develop
mental factors such as mindfulness, concentration and wisdom."
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Kim O'Hara »

That's right.
You might like to look up the samatha/vipassana pair of meditation styles. One prepares for the other.

:namaste:
Kim
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Thank you!
I'll ask one more question. That is, conditioning (causes and conditions) does not mean that in order to do something, I have to wait until the corresponding thought appears in my head? On the contrary, the mind can itself, at any time at will, choose what to do from the possible options. It's just that the choice is limited by options, environment, mental capacity, etc.?

The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering
by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Right effort

...Whereas this first of the five methods for expelling the hindrances involves a one-to-one alignment between a hindrance and its remedy, the other four utilize general approaches. The second marshals the forces of shame (hiri) and moral dread (ottappa) to abandon the unwanted thought: one reflects on the thought as vile and ignoble or considers its undesirable consequences until an inner revulsion sets in which drives the thought away. The third method involves a deliberate diversion of attention. When an unwholesome thought arises and clamours to be noticed, instead of indulging it one simply shuts it out by redirecting one's attention elsewhere, as if closing one's eyes or looking away to avoid an unpleasant sight. The fourth method uses the opposite approach. Instead of turning away from the unwanted thought, one confronts it directly as an object, scrutinizes its features, and investigates its source. When this is done the thought quiets down and eventually disappears. For an unwholesome thought is like a thief: it only creates trouble when its operation is concealed, but put under observation it becomes tame. The fifth method, to be used only as a last resort, is suppression — vigorously restraining the unwholesome thought with the power of the will in the way a strong man might throw a weaker man to the ground and keep him pinned there with his weight.

By applying these five methods with skill and discretion, the Buddha says, one becomes a master of all the pathways of thought. One is no longer the subject of the mind but its master. Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think. Even if unwholesome thoughts occasionally arise, one can dispel them immediately, just as quickly as a red-hot pan will turn to steam a few chance drops of water.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:07 am, edited 7 times in total.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:52 am Thank you!
I'll ask one more question. That is, conditioning (causes and conditions) does not mean that in order to do something, I have to wait until the corresponding thought appears in my head?
Yes and no. Let’s use the example of anger management. You have to work on that when you are not angry. In Buddhist terms, you have to meditate on the reasons why anger arises (attachment, impatience, etc) and practice shamatha, being able to let thoughts pass as they aris, and so on. But you have to do this when you are not faced with the actual conditions which trigger the negative mental response you wish to overcome.

But until an event arises which would usually trigger such a negative response, or as you put it, ‘a corresponding thought appears’ then you can’t actually apply the remedy. Donon that sense, yes, you have to wait until it arises.

You can’t catch a rabbit until there’s a rabbit.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Thank you!
Would like to hear more opinion
Kim O'Hara

I'll clarify a little. Let's take an example about training. That is, in order to train, you do not have to wait until the thought of training deigns to come to mind. The mind can choose the thought to start exercising, itself, at any moment,
at will, choosing this thought among the options, what to do at the moment?
that is, roughly speaking, the mind itself chooses, what to do, at any moment, at will? choosing from options.
Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:29 pm, edited 8 times in total.
User avatar
Tao
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Contact:

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Tao »

>The mind can choose the thought to start exercising, itself, at any moment,
at will, choosing this thought among the options, what to do at the moment?
that is, roughly speaking, the mind itself chooses, what to do, at any moment, at will? choosing from options.
It does not.

Or it does it the same way will do a computer. So it does not.

It's just causality in action.

Recommended read:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~squartz/wegner2.pdf
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:03 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:52 am Thank you!
I'll ask one more question. That is, conditioning (causes and conditions) does not mean that in order to do something, I have to wait until the corresponding thought appears in my head?
Yes and no. Let’s use the example of anger management. You have to work on that when you are not angry. In Buddhist terms, you have to meditate on the reasons why anger arises (attachment, impatience, etc) and practice shamatha, being able to let thoughts pass as they aris, and so on. But you have to do this when you are not faced with the actual conditions which trigger the negative mental response you wish to overcome.
And a question for PadmaVonSamba. In the process of communication, the mind learned that it could practice shamatha. he remembers that. The mind can at any time, at will, choose whether to practice shamatha or do something else (go for a walk in the park, fix the car, etc). There is such a choice. Limited by possibilities, list and environment. Right?
Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think.
Having developed the right concentration, when the mind becomes a powerful tool, we direct it to the four bases of attention, contemplating the body, feelings, states of mind and thoughts.
In this case, the practitioner has a choice, for example, what to contemplate. He wants - contemplates the body, wants - contemplate the mind. wants - stops contemplating and begins to think about any topic. That is, wherever he wants, at his will and at any moment, he directs his mind there. Have a choice. Right?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:09 pm, edited 13 times in total.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:33 pm And a question for PadmaVonSamba. In the process of communication, the mind learned that it could practice shamatha. he remembers that. The mind can at any time, at will, choose whether to practice shamatha or do something else (go for a walk in the park, fix the car, etc). There is such a choice. Limited by possibilities, list and environment. Right?
Shamatha is a process of returning to a single focus, usually the breath. It can be practiced any time and any place where one is breathing. That includes pretty much everywhere except maybe underwater.

So, what you want to know is, can the mind focus on the breath at any time. Focus is a verb here, rather than a noun.

The mind doesn’t maintain a separate thing that’s a point of focus for “its” attention, like an archer has an arrow and points “it” at a target. The pointing is the arrow.

There is no separation from the mind and the activity of the mind.

But yes, the mind can prefer to focus on whatever arises as its object of attention.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:48 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:33 pm And a question for PadmaVonSamba. In the process of communication, the mind learned that it could practice shamatha. he remembers that. The mind can at any time, at will, choose whether to practice shamatha or do something else (go for a walk in the park, fix the car, etc). There is such a choice. Limited by possibilities, list and environment. Right?
But yes, the mind can prefer to focus on whatever arises as its object of attention.
can you explain easier? the mind may prefer to focus on the object of its attention, and it is also possible to choose other objects of its attention and focus. Right?
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17091
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:03 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:48 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:33 pm And a question for PadmaVonSamba. In the process of communication, the mind learned that it could practice shamatha. he remembers that. The mind can at any time, at will, choose whether to practice shamatha or do something else (go for a walk in the park, fix the car, etc). There is such a choice. Limited by possibilities, list and environment. Right?
But yes, the mind can prefer to focus on whatever arises as its object of attention.
can you explain easier? the mind may prefer to focus on the object of its attention, and it is also possible to choose other objects of its attention and focus. Right?
A main function of the mind is fixation on objects.

The difference with shamatha with an object is that you intentionally choose the object and return to it when distracted.

The normal state of the mind is fixation on various things, getting distracting by fixating on other things, and generally jumping around like that forever.

Shamatha is becoming more aware of that process and eventually gaining the ability to be without distraction.

Conceptual meditation is not really the same thing, because they are just adjusting the minds content - for instance contemplating loving kindness etc. when angry. Good things to do but they don’t address the direct functioning of the process.

The contemplation you are asking about is more akin to Vipassana, which usually comes after a stable base of shamatha, though some traditions teach them in a unified way.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:03 pm
can you explain easier? the mind may prefer to focus on the object of its attention, and it is also possible to choose other objects of its attention and focus. Right?
Easier than what?
I am not sure what part is confusing.
If you are reading this, your mind is preferring to focus on this and not on something else. But you may choose to watch tv instead later.
What is it that you don’t understand that isn’t right in front of you?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:13 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:03 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:48 pm
But yes, the mind can prefer to focus on whatever arises as its object of attention.
can you explain easier? the mind may prefer to focus on the object of its attention, and it is also possible to choose other objects of its attention and focus. Right?
A main function of the mind is fixation on objects.

The difference with shamatha with an object is that you intentionally choose the object and return to it when distracted.

The normal state of the mind is fixation on various things, getting distracting by fixating on other things, and generally jumping around like that forever
Ok, I guess I mixed it all up. let's take shamatha. In the process of shamatha, the mind can focus on an object (breath or otherwise) intentionally, at will, consciously choosing an object from among the options. And in case of distraction, switch attention back. Right?

And in the process of vipassana (analytical meditation), the mind reflects, analyzes some topic, trying to understand it. The mind chooses a topic consciously, and intentionally, at will, and not the one where the mind jumps, is distracted by accident. If the mind is distracted, you can bring it back to the desired topic. Right?

The respected Dalai Lama describes them thus
The two main types of meditation are analytical and one-pointed. Practicing the first you analyze a topic, trying to understand it through reflection. For example, you can meditate on the impermanence of things, contemplating how they arise due to various causes, or how they are destroyed moment by moment. In the case of one-pointed meditation, you focus your mind on some one object...
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:10 pm, edited 6 times in total.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:29 pm Ok, I guess I mixed it all up. let's take shamatha. In the process of shamatha, the mind can focus on an object (breath or otherwise) intentionally, at will, consciously choosing an object from among the options. And in case of distraction, switch attention back. Right?
yeah, that’s pretty much how it is supposed to work.
And in the process of vipassana (analytical meditation), the mind reflects, analyzes some topic, trying to understand it. The mind chooses a topic consciously, and intentionally, at will, and not the one where the mind jumps, is distracted by accident. If the mind is distracted, you can bring it back to the desired topic. Right?
yes. I think it’s similar to what is usually just called “contemplation” in Christian theology.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Konstantin Sol
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Ok!
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17091
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:13 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:03 pm

can you explain easier? the mind may prefer to focus on the object of its attention, and it is also possible to choose other objects of its attention and focus. Right?
A main function of the mind is fixation on objects.

The difference with shamatha with an object is that you intentionally choose the object and return to it when distracted.

The normal state of the mind is fixation on various things, getting distracting by fixating on other things, and generally jumping around like that forever
Ok, I guess I mixed it all up. let's take shamatha. In the process of shamatha, the mind can focus on an object (breath or otherwise) intentionally, at will, consciously choosing an object from among the options. And in case of distraction, switch attention back. Right?

And in the process of vipassana (analytical meditation), the mind reflects, analyzes some topic, trying to understand it. The mind chooses a topic consciously, and intentionally, at will, and not the one where the mind jumps, is distracted by accident. If the mind is distracted, you can bring it back to the desired topic. Right?
The point is that the distraction is automatic, so we must train in being non-distracted. The object used can be whatever you want, but the meditation is not about generating thoughts about the object, it is about applying full interest and attention to it.
The respected Dalai Lama describes them thus
The two main types of meditation are analytical and one-pointed. Practicing the first you analyze a topic, trying to understand it through reflection. For example, you can meditate on the impermanence of things, contemplating how they arise due to various causes, or how they are destroyed moment by moment. In the case of one-pointed meditation, you focus your mind on some one object...
Sure, HHDL provides here a somewhat Gelug-centric view of Vipassana, if you took teaching from sone Kagyu teacher , sone Dzogchenpa, etc. then Vipassana is described more in terms of analysis of -direct experience-, either way, it is not easy in a state on constant distraction….thus the need for non-distraction.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Post Reply

Return to “Discovering Mahayana Buddhism”