the difference between Prajñāparāmita and Madhyamaka

[PeterC]

Thanks for the reply, do you know any of the sources that Atom is referring to, whether the scholarly texts or the neuroscience studies, and how they might relate to these different states?

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the moderators, the only study of the state of nirodha samatta that I am aware of is discussed by one of the very, very few practitioners who can enter into the state - Delson Amrstrong. Here is the link to his interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwizQmFe87o&t=3312s

It starts at 1:27:55

The whole interview is fascinating and there are more interviews with him as well. Promise this is the last post on this topic on this thread.

When you've got people making youtube videos like this you know for sure that you're in the kaliyuga

[Kai lord]

Thanks for the reply, do you know any of the sources that Atom is referring to, whether the scholarly texts or the neuroscience studies, and how they might relate to these different states?

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the moderators, the only study of the state of nirodha samatta that I am aware of is discussed by one of the very, very few practitioners who can enter into the state - Delson Amrstrong.

From this website:

Delson shares his subsequent explorations of Buddhism, including Mahamudra, Dzogchen, and the TWIM practice of Bhante Vimalaramsi. Delson recounts and contrasts his experiences accomplishing the 8 jhanas, attaining the 4 levels of Buddhist awakening, and realising Rigpa.

Delson also reveals yogic feats such as recalling past lives and entering into a type of suspended animation called nirodha-samāpatti for up to six days, and reveals his passion for neuroscience and recent participation in a study at the University of Amsterdam that has examined his brain and body in this state of yogic suspension.

Disagree on the red ones which serve to increase my skepticism. Regardless anyone is free to declare their level of attainment openly online.

[Shaiksha]

When you've got people making youtube videos like this you know for sure that you're in the kaliyuga

From this website:

Delson shares his subsequent explorations of Buddhism, including Mahamudra, Dzogchen, and the TWIM practice of Bhante Vimalaramsi. Delson recounts and contrasts his experiences accomplishing the 8 jhanas, attaining the 4 levels of Buddhist awakening, and realising Rigpa.

Delson also reveals yogic feats such as recalling past lives and entering into a type of suspended animation called nirodha-samāpatti for up to six days, and reveals his passion for neuroscience and recent participation in a study at the University of Amsterdam that has examined his brain and body in this state of yogic suspension.

Disagree on the red ones which serve to increase my skepticism. Regardless anyone is free to declare their level of attainment openly online.

Actually, when I made the post, the intention was to show any study done in this area as requested by MiphamFan. In science, they don't really care about subjective experiences. So, it does not matter what the subject says or thinks about their attainments. What scientists do is to put a bunch of devices and take the measurements based on "objective" criteria, such as wavelengths, etc. I was just trying to help without even giving my opinion about this kind of studies. Now, I could have said that I was personally sceptical with "scholarly studies of Buddhism" in general (e.g. people making statements about Buddhism based purely on intellectual exercises without practice/personal experience) or the usefulness of any "scientific measurements" in making sense of spiritual experiences. But, I would have completely missed the point, because MiphamFan did not ask for my personal opinion about these.

In this context, I also think you guys have gone off-topic from my off-topic post. I am not here to highlight the guy's claim of attainments. Nevertheless, since you raise this issue, I can offer my comment (by going off-topic, again). First, there is no way I can personally verify the claim, so I cannot say whether I agree or not (so, I am neutral). Some people's default position is scepticism - that's fine. Second, it seems that the guy has been "endorsed" by his own teacher:

From this website:

In this episode I am joined by Delson Armstrong, spiritual teacher and star student of Bhante Vimalaramsi, who’s senior student David Johnson has said ‘Delson Armstrong has mastered every practice we have given him. He is the most amazing student we have ever seen.

This cannot be said of certain people out there whose claim of attainments is not corroborated by their own teachers. To put into context, if your own guru/teacher made the comment: "XXX has mastered every practice we have given him", then it's not too bad a compliment, is it. Though, claiming to have attained the 4 levels of Buddhist awakening is another thing.

Third, bragging in Buddhism is not a new thing. It is well-known that Dzogchen claims superiority over all other Buddhist vehicles, particularly over other tantric and deity practices. Similarly, tantric practitioners make the claim of superiority over sutra practitioners, Mahayana over Hinayana, etc. If this rubs you off or you get triggered by this, well...

[Kai lord]

When you've got people making youtube videos like this you know for sure that you're in the kaliyuga

From this website:

Delson shares his subsequent explorations of Buddhism, including Mahamudra, Dzogchen, and the TWIM practice of Bhante Vimalaramsi. Delson recounts and contrasts his experiences accomplishing the 8 jhanas, attaining the 4 levels of Buddhist awakening, and realising Rigpa.

Delson also reveals yogic feats such as recalling past lives and entering into a type of suspended animation called nirodha-samāpatti for up to six days, and reveals his passion for neuroscience and recent participation in a study at the University of Amsterdam that has examined his brain and body in this state of yogic suspension.

Disagree on the red ones which serve to increase my skepticism. Regardless anyone is free to declare their level of attainment openly online.

Actually, when I made the post, the intention was to show any study done in this area as requested by MiphamFan. In science, they don't really care about subjective experiences. So, it does not matter what the subject says or thinks about their attainments. What scientists do is to put a bunch of devices and take the measurements based on "objective" criteria, such as wavelengths, etc. I was just trying to help without even giving my opinion about this kind of studies. Now, I could have said that I was personally sceptical with "scholarly studies of Buddhism" in general (e.g. people making statements about Buddhism based purely on intellectual exercises without practice/personal experience) or the usefulness of any "scientific measurements" in making sense of spiritual experiences. But, I would have completely missed the point, because MiphamFan did not ask for my personal opinion about these.

In this context, I also think you guys have gone off-topic from my off-topic post. I am not here to highlight the guy's claim of attainments. Nevertheless, since you raise this issue, I can offer my comment (by going off-topic, again). First, there is no way I can personally verify the claim, so I cannot say whether I agree or not (so, I am neutral). Some people's default position is scepticism - that's fine. Second, it seems that the guy has been "endorsed" by his own teacher:

From this website:

In this episode I am joined by Delson Armstrong, spiritual teacher and star student of Bhante Vimalaramsi, who’s senior student David Johnson has said ‘Delson Armstrong has mastered every practice we have given him. He is the most amazing student we have ever seen.

This cannot be said of certain people out there whose claim of attainments is not corroborated by their own teachers. To put into context, if your own guru/teacher made the comment: "XXX has mastered every practice we have given him", then it's not too bad a compliment, is it. Though, claiming to have attained the 4 levels of Buddhist awakening is another thing.

Third, bragging in Buddhism is not a new thing. It is well-known that Dzogchen claims superiority over all other Buddhist vehicles, particularly over other tantric and deity practices. Similarly, tantric practitioners make the claim of superiority over sutra practitioners, Mahayana over Hinayana, etc. If this rubs you off or you get triggered by this, well...

Bragging is not the cause for skepticism. You clearly have not seen the issues and contradictions behind his claims, so allow me to put it plainly to you.

He claimed to have practice Mahamudra and Dzogchen but he never once indicted whose his Vajrayana teacher or guru was. So basically he self learned? Ok, lets assume that he did take empowerments and receive all the vows. After vowing to be a bodhisattva, how did he continue on to attain Arahantship (Fourth level of awakening) and then subsequently stay in the state of Rigpa?

Since he attained Arahantship and achieved Nirodha, did he receive any formal recognition from any existing Theravada establishments? I'm sure the latter would be keen to learn more about an Arahant who wasn't a monk and remain a layperson all this years while continue to practice Vajrayana.

All this are just basic Buddhist matters 101, none of it was complicated to understand or remember. Even so even with his "high attainment", he still wasn't mindful of those contradictions while making his claims.

[Shaiksha]

Bragging is not the cause for skepticism. You clearly have not seen the issues and contradictions behind his claims, so allow me to put it plainly to you.

He claimed to have practice Mahamudra and Dzogchen but he never once indicted whose his Vajrayana teacher or guru was. So basically he self learned? Ok, lets assume that he did take empowerments and receive all the vows. After vowing to be a bodhisattva, how did he continue on to attain Arahantship (Fourth level of awakening) and then subsequently stay in the state of Rigpa?

Since he attained Arahantship and achieved Nirodha, did he receive any formal recognition from any existing Theravada establishments? I'm sure the latter would be keen to learn more about an Arahant who wasn't a monk and remain a layperson all this years while continue to practice Vajrayana.

All this are just basic Buddhist principles 101, none of it was complicated to understand or remember. Even so even with his "high attainment", he still wasn't mindful of those contradictions while making his claims.

He dabbled in many practices before settling for the Theravada tradition. Based on the video, he took teachings from Lama Lena for Dzogchen before settling for the Theravada tradition - I am not sure whether he ever took any boddhisatva vow or empowerments. As far as I know, Lama Lena regularly gives pointing out instructions online and have never insisted her disciples to formally take bodhisatva vows or empowerments.

Also, there are many degrees of rigpa realisation. For most people, they initially only have a glimpse of "baby rigpa" as Tsoknyi Rinpoche would say. For all I know, he could have mistaken a state of shamatha for being in a state of rigpa. So, you do have to take his claim with a pinch of salt. I am on the same page with you on this. Again, I did not bring this issue up.

Finally, he regularly teaches retreats alongside Bhante Vimalaramsi and David Johnson (his teachers). So, if they have any issues with his claims, then you would have expected he got kicked out. But, I would not know for sure what his teachers thought about the claims. Anyway, I will leave it here. I am not the right person to make this sort of examination/comments online about other practitioners - you are right. I am still learning even if it is Buddhist 101.

[Norwegian]

he took teachings from Lama Lena for Dzogchen before settling for the Theravada tradition - I am not sure whether he ever took any boddhisatva vow or empowerments. As far as I know, Lama Lena regularly gives pointing out instructions online and have never insisted her disciples to formally take bodhisatva vows or empowerments.

Then you don't understand how Dzogchen works. Because you cannot receive Dzogchen in any way without receiving empowerment, because direct introduction to Dzogchen is empowerment. And there is also no Dzogchen without the Bodhisattva vows just as there's no Tantra without the Bodhisattva vows. Bodhicitta is at the core of the path. This is why one sometimes refers to Mahayana in the following way: common Mahayana (i.e., Sutra), and uncommon Mahayana (Vajrayana, which includes Tantra and Dzogchen.) So, if you receive Dzogchen, you most certainly receive vows and empowerment.

[Malcolm]

Also, there are many degrees of rigpa realisation.

Incorrect.

[PeterC]

My general rule of thumb is that if you’re promoting yourself on YouTube, I’m not interested. That site is a cesspool of bullshit.

[MiphamFan]

I actually like Guru Viking, I listen to his podcast, some of his interviews are with people with very unique backgrounds, but a few of his interviews are with people with really bombastic claims. Armstrong is one of them. I find it hard to believe that he has spent that much time in spiritual accomplishment while working as a ghostwriter/fantasy ghostwriter, but I don't have a boat in that race at any rate. I think listening to the interviews is a good execise in discretion at any rate.

[Ayu]

It seems to me that this thread won't manage to come back on topic. Because this is the subforum Academic Discussion, I am locking the thread now.
If you like to discuss further off topic, please just start a new topic elsewhere.
If you want to comment on OP, please ask a moderator to reopen the topic.