Healthy desire and attachment

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Rick
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Healthy desire and attachment

Post by Rick »

What types of desire and attachment are considered positive and healthy? Negative and unhealthy?
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Rick
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

Post by Rick »

Let's see if I can answer my own question (with some help from an AI friend of mine):

In Buddhism, unhealthy/negative desires and healthy/positive desires are usually called unskillful and skillful desires. Unskillful desires are based on attachment, craving, and clinging, all of which ultimately lead to suffering. Skillful desires, on the other hand, are based on wholesome intentions, such as the desire to cultivate the paramitas of generosity, ethics, patience, effort, concentration, and wisdom. Ditto for attachments?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Any attachment which assumes that the satisfaction derived from the object will be forever lasting will ultimate manifest as unhappiness once the conditions which give rise to the desired object are no longer active and the object ceases.

Desire for objects, understanding fully that the pleasure they provide is only temporary and not permanent, will not lead to suffering once the conditions for the arising of that object cease and the object is no more.

In other words, it’s okay to crave a pizza and stuff yourself until you are full, as long as you remember that this doesn’t mean you’ll always be full. Otherwise you’ll be very disappointed when tomorrow you are hungry again.

Aside from that, it’s not so much about the object of desire, except that desire for some things, such as the wish for all beings to be happy, cultivates a positive state of mind, and desire for other things, such as revenge, cultivate a negative mind.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Rick wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:32 pm What types of desire and attachment are considered positive and healthy? Negative and unhealthy?
In the larger sense of the Buddhist path, all attachment should eventually be relinquished.

In the sense of life being better and lessening suffering, being less attached to eight worldly concerns etc.proportionally improves things.

Accumulation of merit and positive states of mind is very important, but those are eventually let go of as well. So the answer is contextual, and depends on our capacities.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

Post by DharmaJunior »

The way I see it, if one is attached then one has something to prove, so there's a whole bunch of busywork, drama and stress created trying to protect a viewpoint or an identity or an image. Very generally this casts a wide net over different behaviour and works on many different levels.

If I do this, this and that (for example) then everyone will see that it's true and validate my behaviour. We could entertain the idea that this is a form of madness- doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result- as so often happens, we just haven't done enough of the same thing to get the desired result.

Maybe that's sometimes why we say be careful what we wish for, that is to say fruition of such and such would be a potential disaster. Another silly example would be, let's say, a person who wins the prize at a vegetable growing contest. This person has created a turnip that grows exponentially and eternally. Before long the whole world is now at war with the turnip.

It's the exact opposite of artificial scarcity, i.e. less is more rather than more is less or more is more.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Rick wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:06 pm Let's see if I can answer my own question (with some help from an AI friend of mine):

In Buddhism, ...
You haven't got an AI friend, Rick.
No-one has an AI friend.
AI has no attachments, healthy or otherwise.
AI is an idiot-savant. It knows not of what it speaks.

:meditate:
Kim
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

Post by Gyurme Kundrol »

Rick wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:32 pm What types of desire and attachment are considered positive and healthy? Negative and unhealthy?
The only so called "pure" attachment or desires is towards uncontaminated phenomena.
"Uncontaminated phenomena should be recognized as the truth of the path and the three unconditioned phenomena. Why? Because for them contaminants do not increase.

- Ornament of Abhidharma, pg. 60"
What this means is that relatively speaking, its ok to have desire for and attachment to the Buddha Dharma since doing so will in turn help us let go of attachments entirely and achieve liberation eventually. Contaminants do not increase means the poisons don't increase, we don't become worse off, but better off, karmically speaking.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:02 am AI is an idiot-savant. It knows not of what it speaks.
An idiot-savant that occasionally hallucinates and goes off the deep end. Sounds like most of my friends. ;-)

I was kidding when I called GPT my friend, but truth be told I've already started to invest it with authority, it's become something to go to for answers. When AIs really take off (and they probably already have) they're going to need to add a whole new category of disorders to the DSM, Doris Lessing would have had a field day! Butlerian Jihad ahoy? :namaste:
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:20 pm In other words, it’s okay to crave a pizza and stuff yourself until you are full, as long as you remember that this doesn’t mean you’ll always be full.
Let's stay with that example, it illustrates something key about the Buddhist path I think. Say you are a foodie, you live for the joie de eating, and part of that joy is in the craving (expectation) and the eating of enough to feel really full, stuffed even. This is not a modest, but a huge joy for you, it makes life worth living. You encounter Buddhism, it speaks to you, you study and practice hard, and lo and behold: your joie de food vanishes. You still enjoy food, you eat it to live instead of the other way around. But you no longer crave and no longer stuff. These were huge, losing them is huge also.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:34 pm In the larger sense of the Buddhist path, all attachment should eventually be relinquished.
What about desire, the desire to alleviate suffering say?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:52 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:20 pm In other words, it’s okay to crave a pizza and stuff yourself until you are full, as long as you remember that this doesn’t mean you’ll always be full.
Let's stay with that example, it illustrates something key about the Buddhist path I think. Say you are a foodie, you live for the joie de eating, and part of that joy is in the craving (expectation) and the eating of enough to feel really full, stuffed even. This is not a modest, but a huge joy for you, it makes life worth living. You encounter Buddhism, it speaks to you, you study and practice hard, and lo and behold: your joie de food vanishes. You still enjoy food, you eat it to live instead of the other way around. But you no longer crave and no longer stuff. These were huge, losing them is huge also.
In Nagarjuna’s Letter To A Friend he advises, “regard all food as medicine” meaning to avoid getting attached to liking it or not liking it, or its flavor or whether it has exotic ingredients or whatever, to just regard it as nourishment. Of course, this has to be understood in context. His friend was a ‘king’ (as the term was used in ancient India) who wanted instructions on how to practice like a yogi.

I would be regarded as a foodie by most people who know me. I spend a lot of time cooking and learning to prepare different cuisines (In 2022 I began to focus on various styles of Indian cooking). I’ve worked in food service, once was part owner of a restaurant, etc. So, I can completely understand your question. This isn’t really “attachment” in terms of what Buddhism recommends avoiding. But thinking that becoming a master chef, or making a perfect omelet or whatever, counting on such temporary things and believing they will bring permanent satisfaction or happiness, that’s attachment.

The point made in Buddhist teachings is very basic: all beings want to be free from dukkha which is usually translated as ‘suffering’ or ‘craving’.

It means that everything we do, good or bad, is motivated by the desire for some kind of lasting satisfaction. We try to do the things that make us feel good and eliminate mental stress and restless dissatisfaction.

This includes being a foodie or a professional athlete, or an artist, or even bring a serial killer, having any other strong interest. “When I do this, I feel satisfied”.

Having a strong interest itself, there’s nothing harmful about that (as long as it doesn’t hurt others. Sorry, serial killers). But if one thinks that temporary pursuits or gains will finally push one over the top of the wall and they’ll always be satisfied after that, this person is only heading for eventual disappointment.

The reason why is because all temporary phenomena arise from temporary conditions. As soon as those conditions expire, so will the joy which is the product of those conditions.

Food, in general, is a perfect analogy. Even great food eventually goes bad. As long as one understands that the joys of this life are temporary fleeting moments, it’s like a hot meal: they can be enjoyed without problems arising. But if one develops “attachment” to temporary conditions, it’s like eating leftover food that should have been thrown out a week ago. One will suffer.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:28 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:34 pm In the larger sense of the Buddhist path, all attachment should eventually be relinquished.
What about desire, the desire to alleviate suffering say?
That’s a desire to benefit others. It’s not based on self-grasping. The point of attachment being a problem is self-grasping.

However, if one thinks, “oh look, I’m such a good person, I help so many suffering people, I’m
practically Mother Theresa!” then that is self-grasping even if one is being helpful to others.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Maybe I am being too cynical, but isn't there (almost) always a self-stroking aspect to even the most Mother Theresa-full thoughts and actions?
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:28 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:34 pm In the larger sense of the Buddhist path, all attachment should eventually be relinquished.
What about desire, the desire to alleviate suffering say?
The way one of my teachers explained this it is a wholesome desire, but is still eventually given up. You could maybe frame the question in the light of ultimate and relative Bodhicitta.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:10 pm Maybe I am being too cynical, but isn't there (almost) always a self-stroking aspect to even the most Mother Theresa-full thoughts and actions?
Depends on the person, their development and spiritual practice. There are definitely some people who act altruistically, and of course Mahayana teachings address the difference between things like mundane generosity and generosity motivated by Bodhicitta.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:10 pm Maybe I am being too cynical, but isn't there (almost) always a self-stroking aspect to even the most Mother Theresa-full thoughts and actions?
Do you mean always at least a hint of self-grasping? Not always. There is an underlying principle of wishing to benefit others. But once that is firmly established as a foundation, one doesn’t need to keep churning it up. It’s like opening the door to let the cat out. You just do it. You don’t think, “oh how auspicious for me to be fulfilling my Bodhisattva aspiration by bringing joy to this cat”. It’s the same for pulling someone from a burning car.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:56 pm
Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:28 pm What about desire, the desire to alleviate suffering say?
The way one of my teachers explained this it is a wholesome desire, but is still eventually given up. You could maybe frame the question in the light of ultimate and relative Bodhicitta.
I wondered about this. Is ultimate bodhicitta without desire, i.e. does an 'ultimate bodhisattva' alleviate suffering without any desire to do so?
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:38 pm
Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:10 pm Maybe I am being too cynical, but isn't there (almost) always a self-stroking aspect to even the most Mother Theresa-full thoughts and actions?
Do you mean always at least a hint of self-grasping? Not always.
Almost always. Is there almost always at least a hint of (conscious or unconscious) self-congratulatory "I'm a good person, I'm doing the right thing" when we perform a good deed?
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

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In my experience, no. I worked as a hospice RN for a number of years, and can't recall ever thinking about being a "good person." In fact, bringing "me" into the process (i.e., ego) was a distinct hindrance. Yes, there were many times where I was glad I was able to help and relieve suffering, but it wasn't "me" doing it. "Me" had to stay out of the way. And I have to say, my patients gave me more than I ever gave them. It was actually quite humbling.
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Re: Healthy desire and attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rick wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:43 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:38 pm
Rick wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:10 pm Maybe I am being too cynical, but isn't there (almost) always a self-stroking aspect to even the most Mother Theresa-full thoughts and actions?
Do you mean always at least a hint of self-grasping? Not always.
Almost always. Is there almost always at least a hint of (conscious or unconscious) self-congratulatory "I'm a good person, I'm doing the right thing" when we perform a good deed?
Frequently at first, yes. Later on, no. Not if you really apply the practice.
Perfect attainment like that of the Buddha is synonymous with thoroughly letting go of self attachment.
It is practically inconceivable to the average person. But without letting go of self grasping, liberation from samsara and buddhahood is impossible.
If your assumption is right, then the last 2,500 years of Buddhism in the world never really happened.
That would be quite a feat on your part!
Like I said, it’s like letting the cat out.
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