Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

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SilenceMonkey
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Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by SilenceMonkey »

What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
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Josef
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Josef »

There’s a good list in Buddhahood in This Life.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
jet.urgyen
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by jet.urgyen »

silentobserver wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:15 pm What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
Be part of the Atiyoga lineage and also a Vidyadhara.

Qualities differ from master to master, some are wrathful, some are peaceful, some are rich, some are poor, some are monks, some are devas, so and so forth.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Arnoud »

Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.

2. Having no more doubt about one's understanding of Trekchod/nature of mind.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Three posts removed - one inadvertently off-topic, two commenting on it.
Please use the Report function, folks - it does save time and trouble for the team and it gets a faster response.

:thanks:
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florin
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by florin »

Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:20 am Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.

2. Having no more doubt about one's understanding of Trekchod/nature of mind.
Not so sure about the vajra master requirement.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Giovanni »

Initially when looking for a teacher? Lineage.
Last edited by Giovanni on Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Arnoud »

Yeah, I know. But unless one meets someone like Changchub Dorje it is not too bad to put the bar a little higher.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:20 am Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.
So you go to a Lama you don't know well, and just ask him "have you reached the 3rd vision?" Someone here actually ever done that?
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
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Josef
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Josef »

Domingo wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:20 am Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.
So you go to a Lama you don't know well, and just ask him "have you reached the 3rd vision?" Someone here actually ever done that?
That would be a pretty odd interaction.
Having reached the third vision isnt one of the qualifications mentioned by Longchenpa or Vimalamitra in their descriptions of a qualified guru in their commentaries on the tantras so many would probably just find the question strange and irrelevant.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

florin wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:58 am
Not so sure about the vajra master requirement.
You can feel free to consult the Rigpa Rangshar, one of the 17 Nyingthig tantras, where it has a clearly worded section on the qualifications of being a guru who transmits Dzogchen. As Joe mentioned, it’s also in Vima’s Buddhahood in This Life, if you have the transmission for that.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Arnoud »

Josef wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:50 pm
Domingo wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:20 am Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.
So you go to a Lama you don't know well, and just ask him "have you reached the 3rd vision?" Someone here actually ever done that?
That would be a pretty odd interaction.
Having reached the third vision isnt one of the qualifications mentioned by Longchenpa or Vimalamitra in their descriptions of a qualified guru in their commentaries on the tantras so many would probably just find the question strange and irrelevant.
I think Malcolm once said it is in Khenpo Ngawang Palzang’s Dzogchen manual.
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Josef
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Josef »

Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:21 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:50 pm
Domingo wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am

So you go to a Lama you don't know well, and just ask him "have you reached the 3rd vision?" Someone here actually ever done that?
That would be a pretty odd interaction.
Having reached the third vision isnt one of the qualifications mentioned by Longchenpa or Vimalamitra in their descriptions of a qualified guru in their commentaries on the tantras so many would probably just find the question strange and irrelevant.
I think Malcolm once said it is in Khenpo Ngawang Palzang’s Dzogchen manual.
Definitely could be.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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heart
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by heart »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:09 pm
florin wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:58 am
Not so sure about the vajra master requirement.
You can feel free to consult the Rigpa Rangshar, one of the 17 Nyingthig tantras, where it has a clearly worded section on the qualifications of being a guru who transmits Dzogchen. As Joe mentioned, it’s also in Vima’s Buddhahood in This Life, if you have the transmission for that.
Shakya Shri mentions it.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Gyurme Kundrol »

From the Rigpa Rangshar, pg. 86-87, Translated by Malcolm Smith
The master of intimate instructions that possesses the vajra meaning
has a positive attitude, skill in teaching
obtains the empowerments, applies the meaning of secret mantra
understands all the inner and outer activities
is inseparable from the meditation deity
remains undistracted in samadhi
is knowledgeable in the secret tantras of secret mantra
possesses the great meaning of the intimate instructions of the Great Perfection
engages all outer and inner sadhanas
never leaves the meaning of the view
gives up outer, inner, and secret activities
is endowed with qualities like a precious jewel
and enjoys an inexhaustible treasury.

With the cord of compassion unsevered
and the stream of affection uninterrupted
the master and disciple are thus connected.
Such a master of the intimate instructions
should be served with ones body, precious substances, and very rare items.
So in essence, has empowerment, compassion, realization, understands the entirety of the vajrayana path, and abides in the view of Dzogchen. Beyond this, Malcolm has mentioned in his teachings that for us westerners, if we aspire to teach we need to be proficient in reading classical Tibetan, complete a three year retreat, and that knowing some Tibetan Medicine wouldn't hurt either.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by florin »

Are we saying that a dzogchen master is still bound by the 10 natures of tantra ?
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Norwegian »

florin wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:08 pm Are we saying that a dzogchen master is still bound by the 10 natures of tantra ?
You commented in the following thread: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 7&start=20 by saying:
florin wrote:Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
to which Malcolm responded:
Malcolm wrote:The nature of the mind does, but not the mind. It’s important to make a distinction between these two. When we see the ten principles of tantra being rejected in dzogchen texts, they being rejected from the point of view of the basis, but not necessarily the path, which is why the Rigpa rangshar, the sgra thal gyur, and other tantras teach the necessity of empowerment, samaya, mandalas, and so on. The root tantra of dzogchen is not the kun byed rgyal po, but rather, the sgra thal gyur.
then the thread continues with more posts on this subject matter.

In short, the way to proceed for both a student and a teacher of Dzogchen is described in the 17 Tantras.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Jules 09 »

silentobserver wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:15 pm What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
Is there a list of qualities?
Above all: kindness.
But that doesn't always display itself as 'being nice'.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Thank you for your responses, everyone, and also for those to come.

In terms of evaluating a teacher to accept as your own, what do people generally look for? What qualities can be recognized immediately or known by a community, etc… ?

Are there lists to consult that one would not need a transmission or empowerment for?

What are some qualities that one can hold up to complete beginners to show what to look for in a real Dzogchen teacher?
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:08 pm Are we saying that a dzogchen master is still bound by the 10 natures of tantra ?
Yes, since they can also break samaya, etc., because they are also on the path.
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