Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:38 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:17 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:54 am

I’ve read a lot of the canon untranslated, as I’m sure have some of the other Chinese readers on this forum. It’s fun as literature, and if you’re interested in Classical Chinese art, you need familiarity with some texts. But there’s so much BS in the non-Chinese discussions of Daoism, they’re really not worth paying much attention to.
I mean practitioners. Neigong is something handed down in a lineage from master to disciple. It’s not something learned from books.

From what I hear, so much of daoist practice texts are in code anyway, one needs a master to show what the esoteric symbols mean within one’s own experience.

Daosit texts are actually designed to sound like nonsense to outsiders.

Maybe it seems like BS to you because you haven’t trained in an authentic lineage. Similar to how non buddhists might read about higher, esoteric aspects of Dharma and think it’s BS.
Really there’s a lot less to it than you think. It’s dressed up as something secret and mysterious, but really there’s nothing very secret about it anymore, much like the vajrayana, it’s all out there in the original language.
You’re sounding like an orientalist.

You can read as much as you want, but you can’t understand these things from books. That’s just not how it works.
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:43 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:38 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:17 pm

I mean practitioners. Neigong is something handed down in a lineage from master to disciple. It’s not something learned from books.

From what I hear, so much of daoist practice texts are in code anyway, one needs a master to show what the esoteric symbols mean within one’s own experience.

Daosit texts are actually designed to sound like nonsense to outsiders.

Maybe it seems like BS to you because you haven’t trained in an authentic lineage. Similar to how non buddhists might read about higher, esoteric aspects of Dharma and think it’s BS.
Really there’s a lot less to it than you think. It’s dressed up as something secret and mysterious, but really there’s nothing very secret about it anymore, much like the vajrayana, it’s all out there in the original language.
You’re sounding like an orientalist.

You can read as much as you want, but you can’t understand these things from books. That’s just not how it works.
If you don’t read the source texts or talk to practitioners in mainland China / Taiwan, how do you know what they do and don’t say?
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:02 am
I know a few practitioners of authentic lineages. They all say you’ll never understand the texts without a master to guide you through them. Not only do you need spiritual transmission for a lot of the practices, the texts are written in code so people outside of the lineage won’t be able to understand the texts.

I hate to repeat myself, but it seems pretty obvious.

Each lineage holds certain instructions passed down by the lineage founders, a recipe to cook yourself in the right way. Often it’s wordless...

You need a master to guide you because they will take you through an experience. I don’t see this happening from merely reading texts... unless you somehow have a connection.
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:23 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:02 am
I know a few practitioners of authentic lineages. They all say you’ll never understand the texts without a master to guide you through them. Not only do you need spiritual transmission for a lot of the practices, the texts are written in code so people outside of the lineage won’t be able to understand the texts.

I hate to repeat myself, but it seems pretty obvious.

Each lineage holds certain instructions passed down by the lineage founders, a recipe to cook yourself in the right way. Often it’s wordless...

You need a master to guide you because they will take you through an experience. I don’t see this happening from merely reading texts... unless you somehow have a connection present.
I know guys too. This isn't magic, most of the practices are very closely linked to traditional Chinese medical theory. My point is that there's an excessive amount of BS in this area, particularly in the way it's presented/marketed outside China.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Oh, that’s actually true.

I thought you were saying the whole tradition of neigong was BS. I guess I was under the impression that you slipped into a kind of Buddhist chauvinism... but I was mistaken.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am Oh, that’s actually true.

I thought you were saying the whole tradition of neigong was BS. I guess I was under the impression that you slipped into a kind of Buddhist chauvinism... but I was mistaken.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
No, there's something to it, there are definitely health/psychological benefits - I personally know people who've trained themselves to do reasonably impressive things, and some who've managed to do lasting damage to themselves. So to that extent, not greatly surprising. I do not believe it liberates from suffering, for all the reasons that should be obvious to a practitioner of the Buddhadharma, and since time is short, I would always advise people to stick within their own tradition rather than waste time trying to dabble in several. But what is practiced in that tradition is generally variations on a small number of themes with common origins - which all claim to be the true, super-secret mystical unadulterated doctrine etc etc. The general Chinese cultural tendency to aggrandizing claims of secret knowledge for marketing purposes has translated that into a huge amount of nonsense being written about it by people who probably don't read a word of Chinese.
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

The most obvious proof of qigong practise by Mahayana Buddhist monks is Shaolin.

It was said that Bodhidharma taught the monks qigong martial arts to make them healthier. And rumours had it that Bodhidharma had been studying The Book of Change (Yi Jing) in India, before his arrival in China.

My Rinpoche have not taught me any energy works yet. So im practising Shaolin Qigong myself...
Varis
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Varis »

I was reading about Hakuin recently and found out that when he was suffering from "zen sickness" he sought the advice of a Daoist master and was taught practices that restored his health. Hakuin refers to one of these as 'neidan', but having looked over instructions for this practice it seems to be a Yangsheng (养生) exercise so I'm not really sure why he calls it that.
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Meido
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Meido »

Varis wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:03 am I was reading about Hakuin recently and found out that when he was suffering from "zen sickness" he sought the advice of a Daoist master and was taught practices that restored his health. Hakuin refers to one of these as 'neidan', but having looked over instructions for this practice it seems to be a Yangsheng (养生) exercise so I'm not really sure why he calls it that.
Hakuyu, the master mentioned in connection with the practices that Hakuin taught, was a real person. But he died earlier than the time that Hakuin could have met him. Hakuin basically uses him as a tongue-in cheek literary device (the title of the main text where this meeting is described, Yasen Kanna, is a play on words that can mean a tall tale).

In any case, Hakuin portrays him not as a Daoist figure, but a combinatory one (with Daoist, Confucian, and Buddhist texts sitting on a table in his cave). Hakuin describes those practices making use of medical terminology that can be considered to be as much, or more, Confucian than Daoist.

The practices are 内観の法, naikan no hō, and 軟酥の法, nanso no ho. Naikan/neidan is usually just translated as introspection, or internal cultivation. These things are still practiced today, and make sense within the larger context of the Rinzai Zen path. Similar practices can be found in writings of Zhiyi and other places; Hakuin himself writes that the nanso method can be found in the agamas, though I have no idea where.
Varis
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Varis »

Meido wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:54 am In any case Hakuin portrays him not as a Daoist figure, but a combinatory one (with Daoist, Confucian, and Buddhist texts sitting on a table in his cave).
This is more stereotypically Daoist than you might think. Sanjiao (三教) is a hallmark of Quanzhen Dao, the most widespread sect of Daoism today and they were also the most popular sect at that time; in addition to being deeply associated with mountain hermitism.

Similar practices can be found in writings of Zhiyi and other places; Hakuin himself writes that the nanso method can be found in the agamas, though I have no idea where.
It's likely that Hakuin is referring to this text which Zhiyi drew upon in his own writings:
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... ml?lang=en

It's Chinese apocrypha as is evident from the Chinese cosmology and TCM references throughout the text.
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Meido
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Meido »

To be honest I'm not really sure what is meant by "Daoism" anymore, since so much of it developed in reaction to Buddhism anyway.

But I'm especially not sure it's useful to talk about Daoism in connection to Hakuin, except inasmuch as he would have been familiar with the general body of Chinese classics that the Japanese inherited. And, that there was concern with such cultivation - within the context of Buddhist praxis - already evident in the teachings or the late Song Linji Chan masters that arrived in Japan during Kamakura, with which Hakuin would have been familiar.

I'd be curious to hear what more could be discovered about the real life Hakuyu, though, who apparently was interesting enough for Hakuin to create a fictional meeting with him. Seem to remember reading someplace that he died in a fall from a cliff.

Thanks for the reference, will check it out.
Varis
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Varis »

Meido wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:39 am To be honest I'm not really sure what is meant by "Daoism" anymore, since so much of it developed in reaction to Buddhism anyway. But I'm especially not sure it's useful to talk about Daoism in connection to Hakuin, except inasmuch as he would have been familiar with the general body of Chinese classics that the Japanese inherited.
IMO most of the Daoist influence in East Asian Buddhism is largely energetic/medicinal concepts. Dantien, meridians, five viscera, etc.

Most of this was already baked into Tiantai and Chan before it made it to Japan. Though I wonder if Japanese Buddhists were aware of the fierce controversy in China surrounding the adoption of these concepts by Buddhists.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
ronnymarsh
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by ronnymarsh »

there is a big problem with all this.

First, Alchemy is a Western term of Arabic origin, and it is used indiscriminately without people fully understanding what it means.

In a very brief way, alchemy was a set of mystical theories applied to physical perception whose core is based on the transmutation/transformation of things.

The term is applied to Chinese religious practice in a biased and marketing way, since the basis of Chinese thought (Taoism) is precisely the transmutation of things (everything is in constant transformation).

Thus, it is possible to think of any religion, from Islam (which is the origin of this notion) to Buddhism, in terms of "alchemy".

However, we need to know exactly what we are talking about when comparing religions.

This "Chinese alchemy" refers to the practice of Qiqong, so it is not possible to relate any Buddhist teachings to this Chinese religious practice.

The reason is simple: Qiqong is about the transmutation of Qi, and this is a theme that contradicts what Buddhism asserts (anatman).

Qi in Chinese thought is equivalent to the Western notion of "spirit" (in the pre-19th century sense), which is quite close to the Hindu notion of Atman.

The practice of Qiqong intends to transform essence (Jing) into spirit (Qi) and this into divinity (Shen). It is a process of polishing this fundamental Qi that takes it from a grosser state, Jing, it is transmuted into something intermediate between subtle and gross, Qi, until its total transformation into a fully subtle reality, Shen.

So this notion starts from the idea that there is an eternal "atman" that can be manipulated and transformed, and this conflicts with the Dharma.

Thus, there is no possibility of reconciliation between Qiqong and Buddhism.
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Soma999 »

It may be useful to remind atman does not have the same meaning in hindu and buddhist thought.

In buddhist thought it means everything is interrelated, and as such, does not have an independent existence. It is not a belief, it is an accurate perception of reality.

That does not mean they exclude a soul or whatever in their understanding. On this subject, there are different theories and perspective.
ronnymarsh
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by ronnymarsh »

Soma999 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:24 pm It may be useful to remind atman does not have the same meaning in hindu and buddhist thought.

In buddhist thought it means everything is interrelated, and as such, does not have an independent existence. It is not a belief, it is an accurate perception of reality.

That does not mean they exclude a soul or whatever in their understanding. On this subject, there are different theories and perspective.
]
Atman/Atta in Buddhism and Hinduism is the same concept.

It makes no sense for the Buddha to talk about something that was already common knowledge in a certain audience having a different understanding of the meaning of the word. Instead of clarification it would lead to confusion.

This is why Buddhism has employed the term Anatman/Anatta, which identifies the momentary existence of a self, established by causal relationships and disappearing when relationships cease.
......
Atman literally means "breath", the idea of a blow, (as well as "ruah" in Hebrew, "ruha" in Aramaic, "ruh" in Arabic, "pneuma" in Greek, "qi" in Mandarin and "spiritus" in Latin).

And this concept is very similar among all religions that use these terms as a central part of their soteriological process (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Taoism and Hinduism).

In short, atman is the essence of all living things. The term "breath" is used for this concept by observing the behavior of immobile and lifeless objects. For example, the dunes of the desert, the waves of the sea, the fabrics of tents and clothes spread out, etc., all these material objects move guided by the wind that "blows" them.

So, on the face of it, in response to the fundamental question "what is life?", there developed (perhaps in India or the Middle East) this concept that there is a supreme "wind that blows" that is the source of all that is. alive, living things subsist as long as that wind is in them, and die when the wind withdraws.

This "wind that blows", to be true, needs to have some qualities like eternity, not needing anything, self-subsistence, existence without causality. This is what Atman/Atta means in the Indian context.

(note: translations such as "self" are products of an ignorant westernization in which an attempt was made to make connections between Indian thoughts - Buddhism and Hinduism - and the modern psychology that was developing in the 19th century)
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Soma999 »

The concept of anatman as we understand it today does not come directly from the Buddha. It has been the subject of many discussions by many scholars and practitionners. It has taken a specific form which may not emphasise the same things as it did during the time of the Buddha.

Atman even in hinduism has different meanings, and sometimes it relates to the highest level of divinity inside each person.

Hinduism use a positive way to find divinity, by affirming a divine self.

Buddhism use a negative way to find divinity, by dissolving all kind of ego-centerdness.

The drawback of the hindu way is the risk to generate an ego around divinity, and rigidify an identification, a self which does not exist.

The drawback of the buddhist way is to enter a nihilism where nothing exists, a dangerous view which can open the gates to the inferior realm.

Soul is a complex subject. You speak about Ruah for exemple in hebrew. In their tradition there are five level of souls, and books can be written solely on this subject.

Some view sees anatman not as a fundamental reality, but as a fundamental skillfull means, and both the view of self and not-self, up to a point, should be dropped. There is both a self and no self, considering the view you use.

Buddhism is connected to jnana-yoga, which discriminate between what is real, and so cannot change, and what is not real as it change all the time (the world). Anatman in this regard prevent someone from taking the world as what is real, that is unchanging.

Meditation on the emptiness of a self serve to awaken bodicitta. If it serves to generate nihilism, this is a misunderstanding.

What you say about qi, shen and jing is also a view. I met qi gong masters, they did not speak about qi the same way as you (i don’t deny your vision and understanding). There is different level of understanding, depending on the context and work being done.

Why did the Buddha did not speak about God and Soul ? Maybe because it is a place of full debate from where nothing good can come. But do the work, awaken love and wisdom and all the answers will come from inside.
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

ronnymarsh wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:10 pm there is a big problem with all this.

First, Alchemy is a Western term of Arabic origin, and it is used indiscriminately without people fully understanding what it means.

In a very brief way, alchemy was a set of mystical theories applied to physical perception whose core is based on the transmutation/transformation of things.

The term is applied to Chinese religious practice in a biased and marketing way, since the basis of Chinese thought (Taoism) is precisely the transmutation of things (everything is in constant transformation).

Thus, it is possible to think of any religion, from Islam (which is the origin of this notion) to Buddhism, in terms of "alchemy".

However, we need to know exactly what we are talking about when comparing religions.

This "Chinese alchemy" refers to the practice of Qiqong, so it is not possible to relate any Buddhist teachings to this Chinese religious practice.

The reason is simple: Qiqong is about the transmutation of Qi, and this is a theme that contradicts what Buddhism asserts (anatman).

Qi in Chinese thought is equivalent to the Western notion of "spirit" (in the pre-19th century sense), which is quite close to the Hindu notion of Atman.

The practice of Qiqong intends to transform essence (Jing) into spirit (Qi) and this into divinity (Shen). It is a process of polishing this fundamental Qi that takes it from a grosser state, Jing, it is transmuted into something intermediate between subtle and gross, Qi, until its total transformation into a fully subtle reality, Shen.

So this notion starts from the idea that there is an eternal "atman" that can be manipulated and transformed, and this conflicts with the Dharma.

Thus, there is no possibility of reconciliation between Qiqong and Buddhism.
You might like to look at a related earlier topic before going too much further, e.g. https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 64#p656664 and following posts.

:coffee:
Kim
PeterC
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by PeterC »

Soma999 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:03 pm The concept of anatman as we understand it today does not come directly from the Buddha. It has been the subject of many discussions by many scholars and practitionners. It has taken a specific form which may not emphasise the same things as it did during the time of the Buddha.

Atman even in hinduism has different meanings, and sometimes it relates to the highest level of divinity inside each person.

Hinduism use a positive way to find divinity, by affirming a divine self.
"Hinduism" didn't exist at the time of the Buddha. The definition of atman was, however, clear.
Why did the Buddha did not speak about God and Soul ? Maybe because it is a place of full debate from where nothing good can come. But do the work, awaken love and wisdom and all the answers will come from inside.
The Buddha was very clear about his views on devas and atman. He didn't speak about "god" because he wasn't a monotheist.

There isn't a lot of ambiguity around these issues, though some people get confused from reading too much shentong
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by ronnymarsh »

Soma999 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:03 pm The concept of anatman as we understand it today does not come directly from the Buddha. It has been the subject of many discussions by many scholars and practitionners. It has taken a specific form which may not emphasise the same things as it did during the time of the Buddha.
(...)
Buddhism use a negative way to find divinity, by dissolving all kind of ego-centerdness.
(...)
Soul is a complex subject. You speak about Ruah for exemple in hebrew. In their tradition there are five level of souls, and books can be written solely on this subject.
(...)
Meditation on the emptiness of a self serve to awaken bodicitta. If it serves to generate nihilism, this is a misunderstanding.
(...)
1. By the time of the Buddha and the Sramana movement, the Vedas had already spread and some of the oldest Upanishads had already been composed.
Hinduism is a religion that will only appear (as it currently exists) around the 17th - 18th century, but its bases are the concepts of Brahmanism that are based on the Vedas.
This notion of Atman, for example, is presented for the first time in the Vedas, and its proximity to ideas in other cultures possibly lies in the fact that the Aryan peoples, from Central Asia, settled in various parts of the world, and this notion it may even be older than the very formation of India as a "country".

Thus, as the Vedas and the first Upanishads already existed at the time of the Buddha, it is not possible to think that he was referring to an earlier notion.

Furthermore, the notion of Atman among the various Hindu schools is essentially the same, what is different is the understanding that each school has of the relationship between Atman and Brahma (dualist, non-dualist, monist perspectives, etc.).

(note: Brahma means "highest")

But all Hindu, Brahmanical and Vedic schools, without exception, always identify Atman as a reality separate from bodily and mental functions, whereas the analytical activity of Buddhism fails to find (either through rational methods or through practical methods) anything in addition to bodily (form) and mental (sensations, perceptions, volitions and consciousness) functions in sentient beings.

That is why it is called anatman/anatta. It does not mean that there is not an atman, the five skandas provisionally form an individual, so that it is not possible to deny their existence, however, as their existence is not self-sufficient, as it is not eternal, as it is conditioned, then "this" that exists it cannot be called an "atman", even though it is an "I", so the only proper name for what exists is "anatman", an "I" that is not an "I".

This is a "middle way" between nihilism and the notion of an eternal existence.
--------------------------------------------------------------
2.
Ruah in the Hebrew tradition, there is what is expressed in the biblical texts, and what was endorsed by Rabbinic Judaism and its theological and mystical derivations.

In Genesis (b'reshit) there is no notion of "creatio ex-nihilo" and even less of "immortal soul". These are Greek conceptions that ended up entering and being endorsed by the rabbis later in the formation of Judaism.

The concept of God in the Pentateuch is something quite complex, it is a paradoxical path, his "name" instead of a noun is a verb, and a verb in the imperfect tense, indicating something still going on, which assumes that he is not exactly a "person", but the action of things, the movement of everything. His essential condition is that of "spirit" (ruah).

Thus, ancient Hebrew cosmology understands only two things: matter and spirit. The spirit would be an energy that puts primordial matter into action, giving rise to everything that exists.

The narrative of man's creation in Genesis 2 demonstrates this insight: YHWH Elohim molds man from clay (matter) and breathes into his nostrils (spirit) and then man becomes a soul (something that exists).

This is quite an advanced view for an ancient people, but even so, this notion of "ruah" requires something that exists by itself, that is eternal, unconditioned, self-sufficient, etc., that is, it is still the notion of an atman.

Although this may be fully real in terms of a general existence (since, after all, modern physics presupposes the eternal existence of matter-energy), the concern of the Buddha was not to think about a cosmology, but to understand the functioning of sensible beings in view of the emancipation of suffering. There is no individual existence in sentient beings which survives after the causes and conditions which make it exist disappear.
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Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?

Post by stong gzugs »

There was a fair amount of diversity in what "atman" meant in the early pre-Buddhist Upanisads, especially around whether the atman functions as a doer (karta) or enjoyer (bhokta) or more of a witness (sakshi).

If you want a somewhat mind-bending read on how the atman was understood in the time of the Buddha, I'd recommend Kamaleswar Bhattacharya's The Atman-Brahman in Ancient Buddhism.
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