Beauty

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:03 pm
There is no "objective" reality. You have to develop your inner senses, your sensitivity, and your mind, to be able to perceive beauty. Still beauty exists, although it is difficult to define it.
That’s a contradictory statement.
You can’t say it takes a certain ability to perceive beauty, meaning that beauty is subjective, and at the same time say that beauty is an “it” that exists, because in this sense “it” means objectively: that beauty is a quality which exists beyond perception, exists whether one perceives it or not.

Beauty can be defined, and it can only be defined as a matter of opinion.
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Re: Beauty

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anagarika wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:03 pm
There is no "objective" reality. You have to develop your inner senses, your sensitivity, and your mind, to be able to perceive beauty. Still beauty exists, although it is difficult to define it. According to Buddhist teachings, the Kamaloka deva-realms are more beautiful than the human realm. And the dhyana realms are more beautiful than the kamaloka realms. But it is your mind that must be on the level of kamaloka realms, dhyana realms or the pure realms.
Exquisitely :good:
If one thing is more beautiful than another thing, then beauty is relative, meaning that it isn’t an inherent characteristic of any place or object.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty

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Think of a food or flavor that you yourself simply cannot stand. Is it a good flavor or not?
Would you say that it is simply a matter of opinion wherever that flavor is pleasing or not, it’s tasty to some people but not to you,
or would you say that it is in fact a really wonderful flavor, but your senses are not developed enough to appreciate it?
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Re: Beauty

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:09 pm
no, because you’d still be arguing that beauty is objective. That argument is already based on the premise that beauty is objective rather than subjective. I personally find linseed oil (the scent of oil paintings) to be a wonderful scent.
It seems we might be talking about two different things here. In a sense, nothing can ever be objective due to the fact that everything is experienced through (or inside) mind, which is the ultimate subjective. Maybe I should have used the word "intrinsic" or "inherent" instead of objective. You are right that in such a komplex realm as kama loka, there is much relativity and a multitude of perspective. What I had in mind were certain mind states which are said to be inherently/intrinsically beautiful by anyone who experiences them, and in that sense "objectively" beautiful. I mentioned mind states such as metta or compassion, which simply cannot ever feel bad (they are intrinsically pleasant and beautiful). In the same way, anger can never for anyone be beautiful, and in that sense its ugliness can be sort of established as "objective".

As for the sensory objects, of course there are cases where many of them can be perceived as either beautiful or ugly and no perspective can be privileged. But still there are certain phenomena that are universally perceived as beautiful without people even knowing why - such as the golden ratio, symmetrical faces etc. Maybe objective beauty isn´t the right expression, universal might be better.
anagarika
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Re: Beauty

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:46 pm Think of a food or flavor that you yourself simply cannot stand. Is it a good flavor or not?
Would you say that it is simply a matter of opinion wherever that flavor is pleasing or not, it’s tasty to some people but not to you,
or would you say that it is in fact a really wonderful flavor, but your senses are not developed enough to appreciate it?
I can ask you a similar question - is it possible for anyone to not find jhana or final liberation beautiful? If not, than the beauty of these states cannot be dependent on subjective judgement and must be inherent in the phenomenon.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

anagarika wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:56 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:09 pm
no, because you’d still be arguing that beauty is objective. That argument is already based on the premise that beauty is objective rather than subjective. I personally find linseed oil (the scent of oil paintings) to be a wonderful scent.
It seems we might be talking about two different things here. In a sense, nothing can ever be objective due to the fact that everything is experienced through (or inside) mind, which is the ultimate subjective. Maybe I should have used the word "intrinsic" or "inherent" instead of objective. You are right that in such a komplex realm as kama loka, there is much relativity and a multitude of perspective. What I had in mind were certain mind states which are said to be inherently/intrinsically beautiful by anyone who experiences them, and in that sense "objectively" beautiful. I mentioned mind states such as metta or compassion, which simply cannot ever feel bad (they are intrinsically pleasant and beautiful). In the same way, anger can never for anyone be beautiful, and in that sense its ugliness can be sort of established as "objective".

As for the sensory objects, of course there are cases where many of them can be perceived as either beautiful or ugly and no perspective can be privileged. But still there are certain phenomena that are universally perceived as beautiful without people even knowing why - such as the golden ratio, symmetrical faces etc. Maybe objective beauty isn´t the right expression, universal might be better.
Yeah that makes sense.
I’m
Not sure it’s what the OP was discussing.
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Re: Beauty

Post by Jokingfish »

Wouldn't Buddha find all paintings to be form of self clinging? If so, how can that be objectively beautiful? Can beauty be without self clinging? How can one enjoy beauty if there's no attachment (is non attachment itself beautiful, and only that is actually beautiful)?

(i have a feeling that these questions might have been already answered in this thread, sorry about that if its so)
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Re: Beauty

Post by master of puppets »

Jokingfish wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:17 am Wouldn't Buddha find all paintings to be form of self clinging? If so, how can that be objectively beautiful? Can beauty be without self clinging? How can one enjoy beauty if there's no attachment (is non attachment itself beautiful, and only that is actually beautiful)?
Very good question. my answer would be my imagination. _/\_
may be they become the beauty itself. to see or to live (feel)?

also additionally ı have a question arise; do awakens also live (lively) what they imagine??

thanks
Last edited by master of puppets on Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aemilius
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Re: Beauty

Post by Aemilius »

Jokingfish wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:17 am Wouldn't Buddha find all paintings to be form of self clinging? If so, how can that be objectively beautiful? Can beauty be without self clinging? How can one enjoy beauty if there's no attachment (is non attachment itself beautiful, and only that is actually beautiful)?

(i have a feeling that these questions might have been already answered in this thread, sorry about that if its so)
Purifying the mind from the three poisons/defilements doesn't mean that your perceptions cease. On the contrary, you will perceive more, more through your five bodily senses and through your supranormal powers (abhijña).



Lotus Sutra, Chapter 19

Benefits of the Teacher of the Law

At that time the Buddha said to the bodhisattva mahasattva Constant Exertion: “If good men or good women accept and uphold this Lotus Sutra, if they read it, recite it, explain and preach it, or transcribe it, such people will obtain eight hundred eye benefits, twelve hundred ear benefits, eight hundred nose benefits, twelve hundred tongue benefits, eight hundred body benefits, and twelve hundred mind benefits. With these benefits they will be able to adorn their six sense organs, making all of them pure.

“These good men and good women, with the pure physical eyes they received from their parents at birth, will view all that exists in the inner and outer parts of the major world system, its mountains, forests, rivers, and seas, down as far as the Avichi hell and up to the Summit of Being. And in their midst they will see all the living beings, and will also see and understand all the causes and conditions created by their deeds and the births that await them as a result and recompense for those deeds.”

“Moreover, Constant Exertion, if good men or good women accept and uphold this sutra, if they read it, recite it, explain and preach it, or transcribe it, they will gain twelve hundred ear benefits with which to purify their ears so they can hear all the different varieties of words and sounds in the major world system, down as far as the Avichi hell, up to the Summit of Being, and in its inner and outer parts. Elephant sounds, horse sounds, ox sounds, carriage sounds, weeping sounds, lamenting sounds, conch sounds, drum sounds, bell sounds, chime sounds, sounds of laughter, sounds of speaking, men’s voices, women’s voices, boys’ voices, girls’ voices, the voice of justice, the voice of injustice, bitter voices, merry voices, voices of ordinary people, voices of sages, happy voices, unhappy voices, voices of heavenly beings, dragon voices, yaksha voices, gandharva voices, asura voices, garuda voices, kimnara voices, mahoraga voices, the sound of fire, the sound of water, the sound of wind, voices of hell dwellers, voices of beasts, voices of hungry spirits, monks’ voices, nuns’ voices, voices of voice-hearers, voices of pratyekabuddhas, voices of bodhisattvas, and voices of buddhas. In a word, although the person has not yet gained heavenly ears, with the pure and ordinary ears that he received at birth from his parents he will be able to hear and understand all the voices that exist in the inner and outer parts of the major world system. And though in this manner he can distinguish all the various different kinds of sounds and voices, this will not impair his hearing faculty.”

“Moreover, Constant Exertion, if good men or good women accept and uphold this sutra, if they read it, recite it, explain and preach it, or transcribe it, they will succeed in gaining eight hundred nose benefits with which to purify their faculty of smell so that they can detect all different varieties of fragrances from top to bottom and in the inner and outer parts of the major world system, the fragrance of sumana flowers, jatika flowers, mallika flowers, champaka flowers, patala flowers, red lotus flowers, blue lotus flowers, white lotus flowers, the fragrance of flowering trees, fruit trees, sandalwood, aloes, tamala leaves, and tagara, as well as incense blended from a thousand, ten thousand ingredients, powdered incense, pellet incense, or paste incense. One who upholds this sutra, while dwelling here, will be able to distinguish all these.

“Moreover he will be able to distinguish and identify the odors of living beings, of elephants, horses, oxen, sheep, and so forth, the odor of a man, a woman, a boy child, a girl child, and the odors of plants, trees, thickets, and forests. Whether near or far off, all these odors he will be able to detect and distinguish one from the other without error.

“A person who upholds this sutra, though he dwells right here, will also be able to detect the odors of the various heavens in the sky above. The scent of parijataka and kovidara trees, of mandarava flowers, great mandarava flowers, manjushaka flowers, great manjushaka flowers, sandalwood, aloes, various kinds of powdered incense, and incense made of an assortment of flowers—of heavenly scents such as these, and the scents from which they are derived or blended, there are none that he cannot detect and identify.

“He will also be able to detect the scent of the bodies of heavenly beings. The scent when the heavenly king Shakra is in his superb palace amusing himself and satisfying the five desires, or the scent when he is in the Hall of the Wonderful Law preaching the Law for the beings of the heaven of the thirty-three gods, or the scent when he is wandering at leisure in his gardens, as well as the scent of the bodies of the other male and female heavenly beings—all these he will be able to detect from afar.

“He will thus be able to extend his awareness up to the Brahma heaven and even higher to the Summit of Being heaven, detecting the scent of all the bodies of the heavenly beings, and he will also detect the incense burned by the heavenly beings. Moreover the scent of voice-hearers, of pratyekabuddhas, of bodhisattvas, and of the bodies of the buddhas—all these he will detect from afar and will know where these beings are. And although he can detect all these scents, his faculty of smell will not be impaired or disordered. If he should wish to distinguish one scent from another and describe it for someone else, he will be able to recall it without error.”
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: Beauty

Post by Aemilius »

In several places of the Agama sutras good looks, their cause and how to acuire them are mentioned. This aspect or topic seems to absent from the corresponding pali texts, -as far as I know (?)

For example:

79. The Buddha told the monks, “You must diligently cultivate good conduct. By cultivating good conduct, your lifespan will be lengthened, your appearance will improve, and your well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power will be perfected, just like the kings who follow the noble wheel-turning king’s ancient teaching. Their lifespans lengthened, their appearances improved, and they perfected their well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power. A monk is likewise. He must cultivate good conduct for his lifespan to lengthen, his appearance to improve, and to perfect his well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power.

80. “How is a monk’s lifespan lengthened? Thus, a monk cultivates the samādhi of desire [for good conduct] diligently and not negligently. He accomplishes the practice of cessation [of unskillful qualities] by cultivating the miraculous abilities. He cultivates the samādhi of effort … samādhi of mind … samādhi of contemplation diligently and not negligently. He accomplishes the practice of cessation by cultivating the spiritual abilities. This lengthens his lifespan.

81. “How is a monk’s appearance improved? Here, a monk perfects the discipline and accomplishes proper behavior. He notices small misdeeds and fears them greatly. He fully learns the precepts and puts all of them into practice. This improves a monk’s appearance.

form Dirgha Agama, The Long Discourses, 6. The Noble Wheel-Turning King’s Cultivation
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... .html#ref7
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:19 am In several places of the Agama sutras good looks, their cause and how to acuire them are mentioned. This aspect or topic seems to absent from the corresponding pali texts, -as far as I know (?)

For example:

79. The Buddha told the monks, “You must diligently cultivate good conduct. By cultivating good conduct, your lifespan will be lengthened, your appearance will improve, and your well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power will be perfected, just like the kings who follow the noble wheel-turning king’s ancient teaching. Their lifespans lengthened, their appearances improved, and they perfected their well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power. A monk is likewise. He must cultivate good conduct for his lifespan to lengthen, his appearance to improve, and to perfect his well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power.

80. “How is a monk’s lifespan lengthened? Thus, a monk cultivates the samādhi of desire [for good conduct] diligently and not negligently. He accomplishes the practice of cessation [of unskillful qualities] by cultivating the miraculous abilities. He cultivates the samādhi of effort … samādhi of mind … samādhi of contemplation diligently and not negligently. He accomplishes the practice of cessation by cultivating the spiritual abilities. This lengthens his lifespan.

81. “How is a monk’s appearance improved? Here, a monk perfects the discipline and accomplishes proper behavior. He notices small misdeeds and fears them greatly. He fully learns the precepts and puts all of them into practice. This improves a monk’s appearance.

form Dirgha Agama, The Long Discourses, 6. The Noble Wheel-Turning King’s Cultivation
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... .html#ref7
Good quotes. Keep in mind, the term “appearances” doesn’t necessarily mean beauty. After all, appearances are illusory. An appearance can only arise as something that arises to someone, to an observer, in whose mind it then arises as attractive or repulsive.
I think in today’s terminology, “your appearance will improve” would be said as “you will make a better first impression” or something along those lines. It’s like when one sees HH Dalai Lama and his “appearance” arises as warm and joyful. Would he win the ‘most handsome hunk of the year’ award? You decide.
When you see a person who has cultivated the qualities of good conduct, they sort of ‘give off a good vibe’. I think that’s what is meant by “appearances”.
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Re: Beauty

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:30 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:19 am In several places of the Agama sutras good looks, their cause and how to acuire them are mentioned. This aspect or topic seems to absent from the corresponding pali texts, -as far as I know (?)

For example:

79. The Buddha told the monks, “You must diligently cultivate good conduct. By cultivating good conduct, your lifespan will be lengthened, your appearance will improve, and your well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power will be perfected, just like the kings who follow the noble wheel-turning king’s ancient teaching. Their lifespans lengthened, their appearances improved, and they perfected their well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power. A monk is likewise. He must cultivate good conduct for his lifespan to lengthen, his appearance to improve, and to perfect his well-being and happiness, wealth and prosperity, and power.

80. “How is a monk’s lifespan lengthened? Thus, a monk cultivates the samādhi of desire [for good conduct] diligently and not negligently. He accomplishes the practice of cessation [of unskillful qualities] by cultivating the miraculous abilities. He cultivates the samādhi of effort … samādhi of mind … samādhi of contemplation diligently and not negligently. He accomplishes the practice of cessation by cultivating the spiritual abilities. This lengthens his lifespan.

81. “How is a monk’s appearance improved? Here, a monk perfects the discipline and accomplishes proper behavior. He notices small misdeeds and fears them greatly. He fully learns the precepts and puts all of them into practice. This improves a monk’s appearance.

form Dirgha Agama, The Long Discourses, 6. The Noble Wheel-Turning King’s Cultivation
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... .html#ref7
Good quotes. Keep in mind, the term “appearances” doesn’t necessarily mean beauty. After all, appearances are illusory. An appearance can only arise as something that arises to someone, to an observer, in whose mind it then arises as attractive or repulsive.

On the contrary, Charles D. Patton's translation is a bit shy, I would venture to say. The same list of qualities is found in Dhammapada, verse 109. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Buddharakkhita and Gil Fonsdal all use the word beauty, when translating this verse of the Dhammapada.

Buddharakkhita: Dhammapada 109.

To one ever eager to revere and serve the elders, these four blessing accrue: long life and beauty, happiness and power.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu: Dhammapada 109.

If you're respectful by habit,
constantly honoring the worthy,
four things increase:
long life, beauty,
happiness, strength.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:36 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:30 pm Keep in mind, the term “appearances” doesn’t necessarily mean beauty. After all, appearances are illusory. An appearance can only arise as something that arises to someone, to an observer, in whose mind it then arises as attractive or repulsive.

On the contrary, Charles D. Patton's translation is a bit shy, I would venture to say. The same list of qualities is found in Dhammapada, verse 109. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Buddharakkhita and Gil Fonsdal all use the word beauty, when translating this verse of the Dhammapada.
When a translation seems to contradict very basic Buddhist principles (i.e., appearances themselves are empty of any intrinsic reality) I put my doubt on the translation. Either that, or the teaching is provisional rather than definitive. Or, as I suggested, one is simply ascribing one narrow meaning to a term which can have broader usage.
They may all be accurately translating the Pali or Sanskrit words for “beauty” but that doesn’t automatically mean an outward physical appearance inherent in the object.

Even if the word used 2,500 years ago can have the same meaning as the word being used in translation today, you can’t just assume that the concept behind the word used then is the same as what you imagine it is now.

Young people today use the word “sick” to refer to something pleasing. If someone who only knows that meaning reads a book that says that the great plague of Europe made people sick, how would they interpret that? If, today, we think of beauty as only referring to physical appearance, while that is certainly a working definition, regarding that as the only use of the term would be a mistake, especially if to do so contradicts fundamental Buddhist theory.

I’m not suggesting that “beauty” doesn’t refer to a specific impression of being pleasing to the eye or ear consciousness, Obviously, the Buddha acknowledges that such a perception occurs. If not, there would be no teaching on the three poisons, or on guarding the five senses, etc. We definitely experience appearances as attractive, repulsive, and so on.

My point is that the experience of beauty only exists in the mind of the subject. It isn’t inherent in the object. This point can easily be verified because if beauty was a quality inherent in the object, then, for example, the practice by some monks if meditating on the human body as simply being a mass of bloody meat could have no result. If beauty was an inherent quality in the object, then Buddha would essentially be instructing the monk to lie to himself.

The OP specifically refers to “a painting” as an example of something which has “beauty”. But there are plenty of paintings that many people don’t regard as “beautiful”. The simple fact that not everyone agrees on what is beautiful should be enough to prove this point. The argument that “some beings simply lack the capacity to see beauty” is just another way of saying that if someone doesn’t share my biased opinion, that person is wrong.

Knowing the difference between fact and opinion is usually something people learn at a very early age.
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Re: Beauty

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Why do you feel that you must attack the existence of beauty, pleasant form, and aesthestic experience in Buddhism? Most other buddhists do not feel that way. For example, your liver does not exist inherently, still your body and your life depend on it.
Non-inherent existence does not annihilate the aesthetic experience of beauty.


"The Buddha’s outward perfection is a manifestation of his inner perfection—his body is a physical, tangible reflection of invisible, abstract qualities. These many marks express how the Buddha might have looked, sounded, smelled, and felt to those lucky enough to have encountered him and listened to his sermons. They also give us an idea of how the Buddha experienced the world. Naturally, these marks and other qualities of the Buddha’s body extolled in Buddhist scriptures were a topic of conversation in last summer’s scholarly convening on Buddhism and the senses. Here, I look at the multisensory traits of the Buddha and what they can tell us about Buddhist ideals, practices, and art.

According to Buddhist texts, the Buddha, also known as Shakyamuni, has a special body, like all the buddhas that came before him and all those who will come after. This body possesses thirty-two major and eighty minor “marks of the great man” (mahāpuruṣalakṣana) which are said to be the karmic results of eons of lifetimes spent performing virtuous deeds and seeking spiritual perfection.

Beautiful from all sides, the Buddha is tall and well-proportioned, with broad shoulders and arms that extend below his knees; his complexion is golden, and he has thousand-spoked wheels on the palms of his hands and the soles of his flat feet. Remarking on “good sound,” Dr. Donald Lopez discussed the many ways the beauty of the Buddha’s voice and the quality of his speech are praised in texts, such as the list of “the sixty qualities of the Buddha’s melodious speech,” which contains such adjectives as “gentle, soft, appealing, attractive, pure, flawless, distinct captivating, worthy, indomitable, pleasant, melodious, and clear.” The Buddha’s body smells of sandalwood and his breath of lotus, and his hair smells fragrant too. His hands are soft like cotton, his skin is smooth, and his body firm."

Image

from https://asia.si.edu/sensational-buddhis ... erfection/
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:37 am Why do you feel that you must attack the existence of beauty, pleasant form, and aesthestic experience in Buddhism? Most other buddhists do not feel that way. For example, your liver does not exist inherently, still your body and your life depend on it.
Non-inherent existence does not annihilate the aesthetic experience of beauty.
Whoa… I am not attacking anything. I’m simply saying that according to Buddhist teachings composite phenomena lack any inherent existence. Therefore, aesthetic qualities cannot exist inherently in an object.

When an object comes into contact with the sense consciousnesses, one thinks “this is beautiful” or “this is ugly”. Or one has no opinion of it . This is also a basic Buddhist teaching. Such considerations arise in the mind. Look up the three poisons.

1. I never denied that an aesthetic experience occurs. Of course it does. I already referred to the fact that the Buddha taught his followers to guard the senses. If aesthetic experiences didn’t occur, there would be no need to do that.

2. The number of people who share an opinion doesn’t make that opinion a fact.

3. What does the function of organs in the body have to do with it?

4. Again, I am not saying that dependent origination negates the aesthetic experience. Quite the contrary. It is due to conditions that the experience of something being attractive or beautiful occurs in the minds of some but not to others. But that doesn’t mean beauty rests inherently within an object itself.

Where else, except within the mind,
does ANY experience exist?


That’s a very nice picture of a Buddha. I like it. Most Buddhists will enjoy it. Of those who are not, or do not find Asian sculpture beautiful at all, many will find it ugly.

I have worked for over 40 years in the graphic design and fine arts profession. I’m not attacking the concept of beauty. But I do see how many people regard their own mental projections as facts.
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Re: Beauty

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:37 am Image
Incidentally, while the picture above uses the term ‘retracted penis’ the sutra on the marks of a Buddha’s body actually refers to the Buddha as having a penis ‘like that of an elephant’.

I bring up this point as an example of what I mentioned before. The terminology used in one time or place can carry a different connotation in a different time or place. When my lama gave this teaching, he made a point of explaining that the phrase “like that of an elephant” refers to the fact that an elephant’s penis retracts (as correctly interpreted in this picture) and is not meant to suggest that the upon awakening, Shakyamuni grew an enormous penis.

One should not assume that when the teachings say that this or that thing is beautiful, this implies that beauty is an inherent quality of the object rather than simply the impression that arises in the mind of the subject.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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