Natural thogal?

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Vasana
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Vasana »

An excerpt from Dzogchen: Heart Essence of the Great Perfection by HH Dalai Lama, second edition, 2004:

Paltrul Rinpoche:
  • 'Thoughts in the mind, the delusory perceptions of ignorance,
    are pure within the expanse of dharrnakaya that is the wisdom of rigpa,
    so within that expanse of uninterrupted clear light
    whatever thoughts stir and arise are by their very nature empty.
    So: “Leaving no trace, and innately pure. What joy !”

    When you have become accustomed to integrating thoughts
    into your path like this over a long period of time,
    thoughts arise as meditation, the boundary between
    stillness and movement falls away and as a result,
    nothing that arises ever harms or disturbs your dwelling in awareness:

    “The way things arise may be the same as before ”
HH Dalai Lama commenting on the above passage:

'Patrul Rinpoche is saying that when you have mastered such experience, thoughts will still arise in all their variety, as they did before, but there is a vital difference— the way they are liberated'

Paltrul Rinpoche;
  • 'At that juncture, the way that thoughts, the energy of
    rigpa, arise as joy and sorrow; hope and fear, may be
    similar as in an ordinary person, Yet with ordinary
    people, their experience is a very solid one of suppressing
    or indulging, with the result that they
    accumulate karmic formations and fall prey to
    attachment and aggression. On the other hand, for a
    Dzogchen yogin, thoughts are liberated the moment they arise


    At the beginning, arising thoughts are liberated upon being recognized, like meeting an old friend;
    In the middle, thoughts are liberated by themselves, like a snake uncoiling its own knots;
    At the end, arising thoughts are liberated without being of either benefit or harm, like a thief breaking into an empty house.
The Dalai Lama then goes on to explain a little about the meaning of the different modes of liberation (grol lugs) - pg 85

Mipham Rinpoche:
  • 'Mere recognition is insufficient; you must develop its strength'
Tsoknyi Rinpoche in CareFree Dignity,
  • The meditation state is when recognizing the state of rigpa, and lasts maybe one second, two seconds, or a little longer. When straying from that, it is called post-meditation. Many people they say, I spent half an hour, or one hour, in the meditation state, but this is not really true. What is true is that we spend 45 minutes or an hour training to be in the meditation state, but the genuine meditation state only lasts for a short while, once in a while.'- Pg 67

    'Next, when saying meditation here, it means the training in that, which means to sustain its continuity, to sustain the continuity of the view [ngang skyong ba]We are not cultivating something through force or developing a thought which isn’t there, by catching hold of the view and then maintaining it. We are simply allowing the continuity of seeing the nature of mind to continue. At first it lasts for a second, then two
    seconds, then three seconds, and so on.' - Pg 68
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:55 pm
Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.

- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.
The impression given in this thread is that you like the ocean but dislike the waves.

If thoughts were to be shunned completely, the teachings on the grol lugs would serve no experiential or pedagogical value. The rigpa recognised on the path is not the fully ripened rigpa of the Fruition Kayas and this is why it can be said that for those on the path, thoughts are like 'food for emptiness'.

Karl Brunnholzl asks Thrangu Rinpoche;
  • Q: Does such self-liberation assist one in gaining certainty in rigpa?

    A: Yes, the two are like two sides of the the same coin - the more recognition the more self-liberation and vice versa: self-liberation is recognition and recognition expresses itself as self-liberation.
And again for emphasis,
  • 'Mere recognition is insufficient; you must develop its strength'
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
humble.student
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by humble.student »

Returning to the thrust of the original post of this topic for a moment.

Non-Buddhist authors have speculated on this and related topics for some time now. One of the earliest such authors was the French physician Lefebure, in his books on so-called phosphenism, which may well be based on scraps provided by Alexandra David-Neel's works on Tibetan Buddhism, I suspect.

Since then, there are a couple of books like Philip T. Nicholson's "Meditation and Light Visions" and Floco Tausin's "Eye Floaters as Shining Structure of Consciousness", which are examples of this particular scientistic focus on visual phenomena as part of a meditative practice.

What this has to do with Thögal, if anything at all, is highly debatable, as is the value of these books. Now that dark retreat is apparently becoming a trendy "thing" as far as personal development and health & lifestyle goes, we can probably expect to see more of the same, if not worse, and would be well-advised to ignore it and seek instruction from qualified teachers instead.
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Jules 09
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Jules 09 »

Vasana wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:36 am An excerpt from Dzogchen: Heart Essence of the Great Perfection by HH Dalai Lama, second edition, 2004:

Paltrul Rinpoche:
  • 'Thoughts in the mind, the delusory perceptions of ignorance,
    are pure within the expanse of dharrnakaya that is the wisdom of rigpa,
    so within that expanse of uninterrupted clear light
    whatever thoughts stir and arise are by their very nature empty.
    So: “Leaving no trace, and innately pure. What joy !”

    When you have become accustomed to integrating thoughts
    into your path like this over a long period of time,
    thoughts arise as meditation, the boundary between
    stillness and movement falls away and as a result,
    nothing that arises ever harms or disturbs your dwelling in awareness:

    “The way things arise may be the same as before ”
HH Dalai Lama commenting on the above passage:

'Patrul Rinpoche is saying that when you have mastered such experience, thoughts will still arise in all their variety, as they did before, but there is a vital difference— the way they are liberated'

Paltrul Rinpoche;
  • 'At that juncture, the way that thoughts, the energy of
    rigpa, arise as joy and sorrow; hope and fear, may be
    similar as in an ordinary person, Yet with ordinary
    people, their experience is a very solid one of suppressing
    or indulging, with the result that they
    accumulate karmic formations and fall prey to
    attachment and aggression. On the other hand, for a
    Dzogchen yogin, thoughts are liberated the moment they arise


    At the beginning, arising thoughts are liberated upon being recognized, like meeting an old friend;
    In the middle, thoughts are liberated by themselves, like a snake uncoiling its own knots;
    At the end, arising thoughts are liberated without being of either benefit or harm, like a thief breaking into an empty house.
The Dalai Lama then goes on to explain a little about the meaning of the different modes of liberation (grol lugs) - pg 85

Mipham Rinpoche:
  • 'Mere recognition is insufficient; you must develop its strength'
Tsoknyi Rinpoche in CareFree Dignity,
  • The meditation state is when recognizing the state of rigpa, and lasts maybe one second, two seconds, or a little longer. When straying from that, it is called post-meditation. Many people they say, I spent half an hour, or one hour, in the meditation state, but this is not really true. What is true is that we spend 45 minutes or an hour training to be in the meditation state, but the genuine meditation state only lasts for a short while, once in a while.'- Pg 67

    'Next, when saying meditation here, it means the training in that, which means to sustain its continuity, to sustain the continuity of the view [ngang skyong ba]We are not cultivating something through force or developing a thought which isn’t there, by catching hold of the view and then maintaining it. We are simply allowing the continuity of seeing the nature of mind to continue. At first it lasts for a second, then two
    seconds, then three seconds, and so on.' - Pg 68
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:55 pm
Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.

- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.
The impression given in this thread is that you like the ocean but dislike the waves.

If thoughts were to be shunned completely, the teachings on the grol lugs would serve no experiential or pedagogical value. The rigpa recognised on the path is not the fully ripened rigpa of the Fruition Kayas and this is why it can be said that for those on the path, thoughts are like 'food for emptiness'.

Karl Brunnholzl asks Thrangu Rinpoche;
  • Q: Does such self-liberation assist one in gaining certainty in rigpa?

    A: Yes, the two are like two sides of the the same coin - the more recognition the more self-liberation and vice versa: self-liberation is recognition and recognition expresses itself as self-liberation.
And again for emphasis,
  • 'Mere recognition is insufficient; you must develop its strength'
If your post reflects where you are at in your practice at this time, then that is all well and good. :smile:
Vasana
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Vasana »

Jules 09 wrote:
If your post reflects where you are at in your practice at this time, then that is all well and good. :smile:
It reflects my understanding of not kidding myself, mostly. Glimpsing or 'catching the scent' of rigpa as Tulku Urgyen puts it, is the right direction, but is still just the early part of the life-long training. I wrote the long post because of the trend we see of misconceptions regarding thought and effort within Dzogchen practice. Many people hear "beyond words", "beyond thoughts" and "effortless" and take this as a basis for believing there is no need to put any initial effort into training, sustaining or strengthening any recognition (assuming it has been correctly identified beyond doubt through the teachers introduction or the methods provided to reach certainty)

Unless we're at the stage where thoughts are like a theif entering an empty house, it's likely we still need to spend lots of time recognising old freinds🙂
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Jules 09
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Jules 09 »

Vasana wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:36 am
Jules 09 wrote:
If your post reflects where you are at in your practice at this time, then that is all well and good. :smile:
It reflects my understanding of not kidding myself, mostly. Glimpsing or 'catching the scent' of rigpa as Tulku Urgyen puts it, is the right direction, but is still just the early part of the life-long training. I wrote the long post because of the trend we see of misconceptions regarding thought and effort within Dzogchen practice. Many people hear "beyond words", "beyond thoughts" and "effortless" and take this as a basis for believing there is no need to put any initial effort into training, sustaining or strengthening any recognition (assuming it has been correctly identified beyond doubt through the teachers introduction or the methods provided to reach certainty)

Unless we're at the stage where thoughts are like a theif entering an empty house, it's likely we still need to spend lots of time recognising old freinds🙂
Vasana wrote:
It reflects my understanding of not kidding myself
Good for you.

:namaste:
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Josef
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Josef »

Vasana wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:36 am
Jules 09 wrote:
If your post reflects where you are at in your practice at this time, then that is all well and good. :smile:
It reflects my understanding of not kidding myself, mostly. Glimpsing or 'catching the scent' of rigpa as Tulku Urgyen puts it, is the right direction, but is still just the early part of the life-long training. I wrote the long post because of the trend we see of misconceptions regarding thought and effort within Dzogchen practice. Many people hear "beyond words", "beyond thoughts" and "effortless" and take this as a basis for believing there is no need to put any initial effort into training, sustaining or strengthening any recognition (assuming it has been correctly identified beyond doubt through the teachers introduction or the methods provided to reach certainty)

Unless we're at the stage where thoughts are like a theif entering an empty house, it's likely we still need to spend lots of time recognising old freinds🙂
Unfortunately some people don't understand grol lugs, which you kindly shared above and remain stuck at the first yoga of semde and mistake shamatha for trekcho whilst simultaneously insinuating others are at an inferior place in their path.
One has to have a severely concretized conceptual view to hold so tightly as we are witnessing in these threads.
Good post above btw.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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heart
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by heart »

Long time ago, when I had the same misunderstanding as Jules, Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche visited the city where I live. I had an interview with him and asked him about how to rest in rigpa during ordinary life.

Rinpoche asked me: "Can you describe how rigpa is?"
I was a surprised to be asked this but answered: "Well, first of all it is free from all thoughts..."
Rinpoche interrupted me and said with a big smile: "that is not rigpa"

Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Jules 09
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Jules 09 »

heart wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:35 pm Long time ago, when I had the same misunderstanding as Jules, Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche visited the city where I live. I had an interview with him and asked him about how to rest in rigpa during ordinary life.

Rinpoche asked me: "Can you describe how rigpa is?"
I was a surprised to be asked this but answered: "Well, first of all it is free from all thoughts..."
Rinpoche interrupted me and said with a big smile: "that is not rigpa"

Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
"Can you describe how rigpa is?"
This is a standard question to test a student.
Any attempt at trying to describe rigpa will be met with the response "that is not rigpa",
because rigpa is indescribable.

As I already quoted Padmasambhava:
Dharmakaya is beyond thought word and description.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Vasana »

Jules 09 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:56 pm
As I already quoted Padmasambhava:
Dharmakaya is beyond thought word and description.
And as it is taught in teachings of the grol Lugs, which were almost certainly also taught by Padmasambhava himself;
Liberation of thoughts as dharmakaya, without their bringing either benefit or harm (Tib. ཕན་མེད་གནོད་མེད་དུ་གྲོལ་བ་ , Wyl. phan med gnod med du grol ba), like a thief entering an empty house
These 'modes of liberation' aren't modern inventions. They're in some of the 17 Tantras. You're not incorrect in quoting Padmasambhava but context is key. Many Dzogchen teachings present the fruit, path and modes of liberation simultaneously, and so when commenting on the relationship between dharmakaya and thoughts;
...Either assertion is feasible, depending upon the subtlety with which the terms are employed.
- Dongak Chökyi Gyatso commenting on some terms in Dzogchen

He continues,
Naked liberation (cer grol) means that thoughts do not simply subside into themselves, but dissolve into the nature of dharmakāya, which is mind-as-such, so that repeatedly recognising them from the essence of awareness enhances rigpa-emptiness by stripping it or laying it bare.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by stoneinfocus »

Jules 09 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:56 pm
heart wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:35 pm Long time ago, when I had the same misunderstanding as Jules, Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche visited the city where I live. I had an interview with him and asked him about how to rest in rigpa during ordinary life.

Rinpoche asked me: "Can you describe how rigpa is?"
I was a surprised to be asked this but answered: "Well, first of all it is free from all thoughts..."
Rinpoche interrupted me and said with a big smile: "that is not rigpa"

Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
"Can you describe how rigpa is?"
This is a standard question to test a student.
Any attempt at trying to describe rigpa will be met with the response "that is not rigpa",
because rigpa is indescribable.

As I already quoted Padmasambhava:
Dharmakaya is beyond thought word and description.
Rigpa is knowledge of the basis. This can absolutely be described in terms of essence, nature, and compassion; but just as words are not the experience of something itself, they fall flat in the same way that the words "red ball" are not actually a red ball, or the word "sugar" does not capture the experience of tasting sugar.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Josef »

heart wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:35 pm Long time ago, when I had the same misunderstanding as Jules, Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche visited the city where I live. I had an interview with him and asked him about how to rest in rigpa during ordinary life.

Rinpoche asked me: "Can you describe how rigpa is?"
I was a surprised to be asked this but answered: "Well, first of all it is free from all thoughts..."
Rinpoche interrupted me and said with a big smile: "that is not rigpa"

Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
Good story:)
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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heart
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by heart »

Jules 09 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:56 pm
heart wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:35 pm Long time ago, when I had the same misunderstanding as Jules, Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche visited the city where I live. I had an interview with him and asked him about how to rest in rigpa during ordinary life.

Rinpoche asked me: "Can you describe how rigpa is?"
I was a surprised to be asked this but answered: "Well, first of all it is free from all thoughts..."
Rinpoche interrupted me and said with a big smile: "that is not rigpa"

Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
"Can you describe how rigpa is?"
This is a standard question to test a student.
Any attempt at trying to describe rigpa will be met with the response "that is not rigpa",
because rigpa is indescribable.

As I already quoted Padmasambhava:
Dharmakaya is beyond thought word and description.
Still you time after time say exactly the same thing I said "there are no thoughts in rigpa", it is the only point you been trying to make on this forum. Also I seriously doubt you ever discussed these things with a genuine Dzogchen master, so there is no way you know what is "standard".
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Jules 09 »

heart wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:35 pm Long time ago, when I had the same misunderstanding as Jules, Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche visited the city where I live. I had an interview with him and asked him about how to rest in rigpa during ordinary life.

Rinpoche asked me: "Can you describe how rigpa is?"
I was a surprised to be asked this but answered: "Well, first of all it is free from all thoughts..."
Rinpoche interrupted me and said with a big smile: "that is not rigpa"

Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:48 pm
heart wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:35 pm Long time ago, when I had the same misunderstanding as Jules, Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche visited the city where I live. I had an interview with him and asked him about how to rest in rigpa during ordinary life.

Rinpoche asked me: "Can you describe how rigpa is?"
I was a surprised to be asked this but answered: "Well, first of all it is free from all thoughts..."
Rinpoche interrupted me and said with a big smile: "that is not rigpa"

Unfortunately for me the people that was arranging Rinpoches visit interrupted my interview at this point.
Good story:)
Thanks, it is for Jules benefit.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Look guys it's really this easy. Thogal is very useful to understand ripga. It does not mean you have to take it all the way to a rainbow body. It's a very simple and pure way to understand. Tregcho is a way to remain with the understanding, something to remind yourself about when you get upset and stuff. And they can work together. If there are people here who are going to get serious and go to retreat then get your empowerment, transmissions and instructions and go do it. But if not, which is everyone here, then learn the nuances and work them to your advantage. If Tregcho is you thing, do it. Understand it's becoming very free, and making s decision about nonmeditation, which is a faith. It's faith because you must just believe it will work. Total has evidence. But once you have that evidence you can have better faith and do Togal.

I am speaking from real world. A man needs a way to keep moving forward in hard times. That is not going to happen with theories and poems. Rigpa is a nice word, but the better word is Tathagatagarbha because is full of rich examples in tantric literature.

You read and hear a lot about how this or that is a blessing and curse, because it is that path but can also be an obstacle that thrusts you into hell. Don't believe any of it. Some teachers make enlightenment out to be some procedure done at tye atomic level with a microscope and an invisible needle. No. It's done with confidence in goodness. All the methods are for seeing within better, but at some point all you see is your potential and happiness. And I see demons. I confront them. And some are extremely scary.

I would like to see more on the scientific basis of Thogal, entoptics and the effects looking at them has neurology. That will help. There is not clever move that wins this game. It's just simple acts done with perseverance.
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Re: Natural thogal?

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Paused for moderation discussion.

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