Dependent Origination in Mahayana

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Dependent Origination concept is the ground of buddhism causality. It's curious I don't see much debate about it. Just opening this debate about it and sharing some quotes.

I just think dependent origination do have some implication against some popular comprehension like about causality like comics justice. The concept just would imply some sort of collective karma, collection of actions, so a person suffering could just be something beyond her own personal karma. While, with Yogacara teaching, the experience of suffering is the produce of previous collection of mental and emotional tendencies.

Madhyamaka:
Whatever arises dependently, is explained as empty. Thus dependent attribution, is the middle way. Since there is nothing whatever, that is not dependently existent. For that reason, there is nothing whatsoever that is not empty. -- MMK, Ch. 24.18-19 [216]
Yogācāra:
The yogācāra school interpreted the doctrine of dependent origination through its central schema of the "three natures" (which are really three ways of looking at one dependently originated reality).[229] In this schema, the constructed or fabricated nature is an illusory appearance (of a dualistic self), while the "dependent nature" refers specifically to the process of dependent origination or as Jonathan Gold puts it "the causal story that brings about this seeming self." Furthermore, as Gold notes, in Yogacara, "this causal story is entirely mental," and so our body, sense bases and so on are illusory appearances.[230] Indeed, D.W. Mitchell writes that yogācāra sees consciousness as "the causal force" behind dependent arising.[231]
fromhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda

The 12 nidanas in Mahāyāna sutras and tantras:
Alex Wayman writes that Mahāyāna texts such as Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra present an alternative interpretation of the twelve nidanas. According to Wayman, this interpretation holds that arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas have eliminated the four kinds of clinging (nidana # 9), which are the usual condition for existence (or "gestation", nidana #10) and rebirth (#11) in one of the three realms. Instead of being reborn, they have a "body made of mind" (manōmaya kāya), which is a special consciousness (vijñana). This consciousness is projected by ignorance (nidana #1) and purified by a special kind of samskara (# 2) called "nonfluxional karma" (anāsrava-karma). These mind-made bodies produce a reflected image in the three worlds, and thus they appear to be born.[76]

According to Wayman, this view of dependent origination posits "a dualistic structure of the world, in the manner of heaven and earth, where the "body made of mind" is in heaven and its reflected image, or coarser equivalent, is on earth. Otherwise stated, the early members of Dependent Origination apply to the superior realm, the later members to the inferior realm. But the Śrī-mālā-Sūtra does not clarify how those members are allotted to their respective realms."[76]

According to Wayman, similar interpretations appear in tantric texts, such as the Caṇḍamahāroṣaṇatantra. This tantra contains a passage which appears to suggest that "the first ten terms of dependent origination are prenatal."[76] He also notes that there is a tantric interpretation of dependent origination in the Guhyasamājatantra, "in which the first three members are equivalent to three mystical light stages.[76]
fromhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Aemilius »

There is also The Salistamba-Sutra and and Its Indian Commentaries (Jeffrey Schoeningh), 1991

another translation of it: Salistamba Sutra, Mahayana agama sutra on dependent origination, (John M. Cooper),1991

and a third translation: SALISTAMBA SUTRA, Tibetan Original, Sanskrit Reconstruction, EnglishTranslation,
Critical Notes including Pali parallels, Chinese version and ancient Tibetan fragments
Nicholas Ross Reat
Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi 1993
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:09 am There is also The Salistamba-Sutra and and Its Indian Commentaries (Jeffrey Schoeningh), 1991

another translation of it: Salistamba Sutra, Mahayana agama sutra on dependent origination, (John M. Cooper),1991

and a third translation: SALISTAMBA SUTRA, Tibetan Original, Sanskrit Reconstruction, EnglishTranslation,
Critical Notes including Pali parallels, Chinese version and ancient Tibetan fragments
Nicholas Ross Reat
Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi 1993
Thank you for the recommendation. This sutra show since the begging dependent origination is the ground of Mahayana.
Last edited by Vajrasvapna on Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by ThreeVows »

I think dependent origination is basically the heart of Buddhism in general, whether Mahayana or not formally. Proper discernment of dependent origination is the same as proper realization of Noble Right View which is the same as the realization of emptiness.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Vajrasvapna »

ThreeVows wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:45 pm I think dependent origination is basically the heart of Buddhism in general, whether Mahayana or not formally. Proper discernment of dependent origination is the same as proper realization of Noble Right View which is the same as the realization of emptiness.
Yes, it would be really good if every one learning Buddhism start with this teaching. Madhyamaka and Yogacara are only different views about this topics.
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Vajrasvapna wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:23 pm
ThreeVows wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:45 pm I think dependent origination is basically the heart of Buddhism in general, whether Mahayana or not formally. Proper discernment of dependent origination is the same as proper realization of Noble Right View which is the same as the realization of emptiness.
Yes, it would be really good if every one learning Buddhism start with this teaching. Madhyamaka and Yogacara are only different views about this topics.
It may be the essential ground of Buddhist doctrine but it is far too abstract, too far from people's needs and motivations, to be the first teaching that beginner Buddhists are exposed to. For me 'the heart of Buddhism in general' is compassion. That's what will bring people to the dharma.

To adapt a familiar saying, if you get them by the heart, their minds will eventually follow.

:namaste:
KIm
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

ThreeVows wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:45 pm I think dependent origination is basically the heart of Buddhism in general, whether Mahayana or not formally. Proper discernment of dependent origination is the same as proper realization of Noble Right View which is the same as the realization of emptiness.
Dependent Origination is basically the heart of reality itself. Buddha simply pointed it out to people.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by ThreeVows »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:14 pm
Vajrasvapna wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:23 pm
ThreeVows wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:45 pm I think dependent origination is basically the heart of Buddhism in general, whether Mahayana or not formally. Proper discernment of dependent origination is the same as proper realization of Noble Right View which is the same as the realization of emptiness.
Yes, it would be really good if every one learning Buddhism start with this teaching. Madhyamaka and Yogacara are only different views about this topics.
It may be the essential ground of Buddhist doctrine but it is far too abstract, too far from people's needs and motivations, to be the first teaching that beginner Buddhists are exposed to. For me 'the heart of Buddhism in general' is compassion. That's what will bring people to the dharma.

To adapt a familiar saying, if you get them by the heart, their minds will eventually follow.

:namaste:
KIm
I meant the heart in the sense that it is the heart-realization, and if one discerns this properly, one has discerned the very heart of the dharma and has entered the ranks of the noble sangha.

In terms of an initial path, perhaps, I think it's not unreasonable to emphasize compassion quite a lot, and more broadly the brahmaviharas/bodhicitta. However, this is not necessarily exclusively 'Buddhist' at all and may be found with many different religious or secular paradigms. Which is not to say this is a bad thing, not at all - Dudjom Rinpoche for instance talks about the 'Vehicle of Gods and Men', where one basically recognizes virtue and non-virtue and recognizes that virtue leads to well-being and non-virtue leads to suffering, and he says that if one is well established in this vehicle, one is very close to liberation.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Malcolm »

ThreeVows wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:36 pm
In terms of an initial path, perhaps, I think it's not unreasonable to emphasize compassion quite a lot, and more broadly the brahmaviharas/bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is exclusively buddhist. The brahmaviharas are not.
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by ThreeVows »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:45 pm
ThreeVows wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:36 pm
In terms of an initial path, perhaps, I think it's not unreasonable to emphasize compassion quite a lot, and more broadly the brahmaviharas/bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is exclusively buddhist. The brahmaviharas are not.
Yes, I think that's fair, I was responding generally to the 'compassion' thing and expanded on that a bit. Although I think it's possible that in particular cases, what beings mean in their own minds when they say 'bodhicitta' isn't functionally particularly different than love or compassion.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Malcolm »

ThreeVows wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:45 pm
ThreeVows wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:36 pm
In terms of an initial path, perhaps, I think it's not unreasonable to emphasize compassion quite a lot, and more broadly the brahmaviharas/bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is exclusively buddhist. The brahmaviharas are not.
Yes, I think that's fair, I was responding generally to the 'compassion' thing and expanded on that a bit. Although I think it's possible that in particular cases, what beings mean in their own minds when they say 'bodhicitta' isn't functionally particularly different than love or compassion.
Bodhicitta means very specifically to wish to attain buddhahood in order to be of benefit to others. It isn't just compassion. It is much more than compassion. It's important to keep that in mind.
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by ThreeVows »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:49 pm Bodhicitta means very specifically to wish to attain buddhahood in order to be of benefit to others. It isn't just compassion. It is much more than compassion. It's important to keep that in mind.
:anjali:

(I wish there was just a sort of 'prayer' emoji rather than the 'anjali' one)
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Aemilius »

Vajrasvapna wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:05 am

According to Wayman, this view of dependent origination posits "a dualistic structure of the world, in the manner of heaven and earth, where the "body made of mind" is in heaven and its reflected image, or coarser equivalent, is on earth. Otherwise stated, the early members of Dependent Origination apply to the superior realm, the later members to the inferior realm. But the Śrī-mālā-Sūtra does not clarify how those members are allotted to their respective realms."
fromhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda
The later members of dependent origination: 8. desire, 9. grasping, and 10. becoming, describe the the existence in the Three realms; kamadhatu, realm of sense desires; rupadhatu, form-realm; and arupyadhatu, formless realm. As it thus includes the existence that is a result of dhyana and samadhi, the members "8. desire" and "9. grasping" must be understood in a manner different from desire and grasping for sense objects. This distinction is rarely made, though it certainly is there. The members 8., 9. and 10. also apply to attaining birth in the pure land (member 11. jati/birth). How should they then be called? Desire and grasping for birth in the pure land ?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:14 pm It may be the essential ground of Buddhist doctrine but it is far too abstract, too far from people's needs and motivations, to be the first teaching that beginner Buddhists are exposed to. For me 'the heart of Buddhism in general' is compassion. That's what will bring people to the dharma.
Well, compassion is a too general word. The only goal of Mahayana is to end self-clinging and attachment to negative emotions. Without some level of understand for dependent origination, people only go to increases their negative emotions.
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:49 pm Bodhicitta means very specifically to wish to attain buddhahood in order to be of benefit to others. It isn't just compassion. It is much more than compassion. It's important to keep that in mind.
"O may I obtain supreme and perfect Enlightenment, promote the good of all beings, and establish them in the final and complete nirvana and in the Buddha-knowledge!" - Bodhisattvabhumi
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Vajrasvapna wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 2:46 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:14 pm It may be the essential ground of Buddhist doctrine but it is far too abstract, too far from people's needs and motivations, to be the first teaching that beginner Buddhists are exposed to. For me 'the heart of Buddhism in general' is compassion. That's what will bring people to the dharma.
Well, compassion is a too general word. The only goal of Mahayana is to end self-clinging and attachment to negative emotions. Without some level of understand for dependent origination, people only go to increases their negative emotions.
That may be true but I still don't think D.O. is a good starting point.
In teaching any subject at all, the teacher must meet the student wherever they are on their learning path, or learning just can't occur. To that extent, every teaching is 'skillful means' whether it's teaching a toddler to find their mouth with their food or teaching a Ph.D. student how to cite their references.
I stand by what I said, and I have high-level support for it. :smile:

Screen Shot 2023-02-18.jpg
Screen Shot 2023-02-18.jpg (147.85 KiB) Viewed 1076 times

...and a lot of popular support, too, judging by the number of people who have turned the quote into memes. What I've posted here is a tiny selection of my search results.

:namaste:
Kim
Inedible
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun May 02, 2021 6:00 am

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Inedible »

The Rice Seedling Sutra is about Dependent Origination. As opposed to the Right View Sutta that Shariputra taught.
muni
Posts: 5559
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by muni »

https://tibetanclassics.org/wp-content/ ... nation.pdf

This can use explanation. https://www.google.com/search?q=dalai+l ... 60zaCmGKWc

Perhaps not merely Mahayana? Sorry, as I make no differences, please delete if not appropriate.
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:18 am In teaching any subject at all, the teacher must meet the student wherever they are on their learning path, or learning just can't occur. To that extent, every teaching is 'skillful means' whether it's teaching a toddler to find their mouth with their food or teaching a Ph.D. student how to cite their references.
I stand by what I said, and I have high-level support for it. :smile:
The Buddha Shakyamuni start by giving anatman teaching. :shrug:
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Vajrasvapna wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:42 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:18 am In teaching any subject at all, the teacher must meet the student wherever they are on their learning path, or learning just can't occur. To that extent, every teaching is 'skillful means' whether it's teaching a toddler to find their mouth with their food or teaching a Ph.D. student how to cite their references.
I stand by what I said, and I have high-level support for it. :smile:
The Buddha Shakyamuni start by giving anatman teaching. :shrug:
Indeed.
Perhaps you would like to explain to your audience the nature of his audience.

:coffee:
Kim
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”