Required for buddhists?

[jedimasterkyle88]

I've recently started doing a deep dive into Buddhism and trying to figure out if it's for me or not. I find many aspects of it very appealing and Zen Buddhism is my favorite "school" so far. However, I've been giving meditation a try for the past few weeks and I'm realizing that it is just not my thing. It's not so much that I cant quiet my mind but sitting for long periods of time makes my legs and feet fall asleep and that is a major distraction during meditation. I've been trying to find an answer online and of course, there are a million different answers and perspectives about this but generally speaking, as an aspiring Buddhist, do I NEED to meditate and/or can I do Zazen while laying down on my back?

Apologies if this has been asked before or if this is in the wrong forum/thread.

[Kim O'Hara]

Welcome to DW

Let's start by saying that sitting for long periods is not generally recommended for beginners since they can't maintain the mental focus anyway, whatever is happening with the body. Typical beginner classes will split meditation into blocks of 5 or 10 minutes, with instruction (and a chance to wriggle!) in between. They may also incude walking meditation, which also helps with any physical difficulties.

But meditation posture comes up repeatedly here. Browsing older topics in this sub fourm may answer most of your questions.


Kim

[anagarika]

The original scheme as designed by the historical Buddha probably did not automatically considered formal meditation to be an integral part of lay people´s practice. It may very well be that the last three parts of the eightfold path pertaining to the development of the "higher mind" (adhicitta) were actually taught primarily to monastics. From what I know about early Buddhism, it seems that a lay follower is defined simply as someone who has gone for refuge and who lives by the 5 precepts. This seems to have been the standard set of expectations. Of course, that does not preclude the more gifted lay people from practicing formal meditation and even attaining super normal states. It is just not required.

I think one of the main problems of today´s Buddhism in the West is the confusion concerning the division between monastics and lay people. In our modern age, the dividing line between a monastic and a lay person can be somewhat blurry - blurry in the sense that many lay people are not burdened with families and communal duties, and, if they have auspicious conditions, can dedicate significant amounts of time and energy to intense formal practice, including prolonged retreats and so on. This can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and troubles - lay practitioners may be "chasing" advanced blissed-out states too soon, they may have unrealistic expectations of themselves or even try to imitate a monastic lifestyle in modern urban settings which can give rise to all kinds of awkwardness.

So to answer your question - meditation is not required in the sense that you can live in line with dharma even without meditating formally. Think of it as of an investment - if you have the time and inclination, why not invest it and bring about good future causes? But then again, you don´t have to - a lay Buddhist follower is not defined as meditator, but as someone who has gone for refuge and understands its meaning, and also as someone whose actions don´t transgress certain borders (5 precepts). And maybe also as someone who has desire for more dharma and study.

[DharmaJunior]

One question to ask could be, does invention precede necessity or does necessity precede invention? To illustrate this point we used to sit in assembly for half hour every day on a hard wooden floor, (so even though young at the time) we had to adapt because 'teacher said so'.

You're unaccustomed to doing it, but Buddhist or not we're mostly all human shaped, that's why we have chairs, beds and supportive items. Some may argue there's an important reason for sitting in a certain way, so if you're a philosopher you do the philosopher pose. If you're a bodybuilder you do a double bicep. If you're a hermit you sit in a cave and eat lichen, probably.

So, in a nutshell, my advice is to do a bit slower an steadier. Use supportive items IF you deem it necessary. You can get in a cheeky meditation session anywhere really, but the formal monastic people seem to be more formally monastic (when in Rome, etc)

[Ayu]

I've recently started doing a deep dive into Buddhism and trying to figure out if it's for me or not. I find many aspects of it very appealing and Zen Buddhism is my favorite "school" so far. However, I've been giving meditation a try for the past few weeks and I'm realizing that it is just not my thing. It's not so much that I cant quiet my mind but sitting for long periods of time makes my legs and feet fall asleep and that is a major distraction during meditation. I've been trying to find an answer online and of course, there are a million different answers and perspectives about this but generally speaking, as an aspiring Buddhist, do I NEED to meditate and/or can I do Zazen while laying down on my back?

Apologies if this has been asked before or if this is in the wrong forum/thread.

Depends who you ask. I'm not informed about the zen point of view, but in my experience nobody demands a beginner to sit longish. That would rather be a mistake than a proper way for starting a practice (me thinks).

In my POV, meditation is a core buddhist practice, but I know there are buddhists who do not practice it. They concentrate on different fields of actions.
I wouldn't abandon meditation right away but give it a chance.
I practice meditation since about 40 years and still I am not able to sit properly for a long period of time. That's my bad karma but it is no reason for no practice at all.

I love to do meditation while walking in nature and my teacher encourages me to do so.

[narhwal90]

I found I have to train up for longer sitting, both body and mind. Meaning, sit for 5 minutes for a while, move to 10- don't worry about the hour+ sessions I think it will be clear when they will be useful and productive. That said, my roshi encourages a variety of practice; sitting for sure, but work practice as well, along with, study, and face-to-face participation with the group and individually with him in dokusan. From experience practicing that list the combination of them is the win. Sometimes the roshi addresses difficulties with sitting zazen that people may face, there are a number of ways such things can be handled.

IMHO practice is a collective experience, I spent a while trying to do it solo and it didn't amount to much.

So for a beginner I'd say find a sangha and teacher. Attend their regular sessions, zoom or in person. Observe them and how they interact; the attitude, tone, how authority is structured, how money is handled.

[PadmaVonSamba]

sitting for long periods of time makes my legs and feet fall asleep and that is a major distraction during meditation.

The suggestions that you begin with shortyet time periods is good. Also, there are all sorts of adjustments you can make including the height of whatever you are sitting on. Or, you might need to sit against a wall. Or use a chair. Remember, it’s the mind, and not the bones and muscles that is practicing.

[seeker242]

It's not so much that I cant quiet my mind but sitting for long periods of time makes my legs and feet fall asleep and that is a major distraction during meditation.

That is one of the reason why correct posture is emphasized. With correct posture you are not going to be putting excessive pressure on nerve endings and limbs will not go numb. It is typically not recommended to do zazen lying down as that could easily lead to just falling asleep. Burmese posture, or seiza posture, or even just using a chair is recommended before lying down or just giving up on zazen altogether.

[明安 Myoan]

Even in a non-meditative tradition (like mine of Jodo Shu), there is still lengthy sitting in front of an altar to perform a liturgy or special practice period. So it's worth whatever small efforts you can put towards sitting comfortably for a while, experimenting with postures and different types of cushions, chairs, a seiza bench, etc.

It's not uncommon for a longer zazen session to be broken up with short periods of kinhin (walking meditation).

There are also other factors you can develop as your body adjusts to sitting, such as virtue (Right Speech, Right Intent, Right Action) and ways to bring awareness of your mind and experience into daily living (e.g. Four Foundations of Mindfulness, refuge and bodhicitta prayers, chanting).

[Johnny Dangerous]

I've recently started doing a deep dive into Buddhism and trying to figure out if it's for me or not. I find many aspects of it very appealing and Zen Buddhism is my favorite "school" so far. However, I've been giving meditation a try for the past few weeks and I'm realizing that it is just not my thing. It's not so much that I cant quiet my mind but sitting for long periods of time makes my legs and feet fall asleep and that is a major distraction during meditation. I've been trying to find an answer online and of course, there are a million different answers and perspectives about this but generally speaking, as an aspiring Buddhist, do I NEED to meditate and/or can I do Zazen while laying down on my back?

Apologies if this has been asked before or if this is in the wrong forum/thread.

You really can’t know anything about how meditation is for you long term with such minimal experience, or without the help of a teacher. It’s not a short term program you check out, sample a couple times and go “not for me”, because establishing the functional basics takes a little time.

This approach is exactly why most people don’t stick with it. It isn’t meant to give you an immediate result that rewards you like that. It’s interwoven with the Buddhist philosophy you are interested in, and is a long term endeavor.

The posture is pretty important in Zazen, any seated meditation, generally it takes a while just to learn that.

My personal suggestion would be if you are practicing on your own to really work on making adjustments to the posture and your seating arrangements, this itself is a practice. When it gets to too much you can lay in corpse pose or similar. An actual teacher could help you with details on the Zazen posture. Particularly in Zen, -the posture itself- is practice, so it isn’t something that is just going to click right away necessarily.

Anyway, not trying to be harsh, but you really shouldn’t just throw in the towel because you are experiencing some physical discomfort, learning to deal with that is actually a part of the process for most people and involves gradual, often gentle (depends on teacher, etc.) physical and mental adjustments- that IS the process of meditation.

That said, I’m sure some teachers have modifications for you.

If it helps, my first foray into meditation was in a Zendo and I had an identical experience “how can I stand the way my back legs feel and just sit here”, honestly, that is the practice. I hesitate to say more because I am not a teacher, but noticing discomfort in Buddhist meditation means that it’s working, where it goes from there is more individual.

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

or can I do Zazen while laying down on my back?

Sit in a nice chair it's fine

[justsit]

From a strictly physical point of view, Westerners who have spent their lives primarily sitting in a chair don't have the hip flexibility to be comfortable in a traditional cross-legged posture without some type of stretching program. Some mild yoga can be very helpful getting the hip flexors to stretch out. Make sure your hips are higher than your knees while sitting on a cushion, and canted slightly forward so your back is straight. Correct posture can alleviate many pains. Keep your sessions short to start and gradually increase time as tolerated.

[PadmaVonSamba]

From a strictly physical point of view, Westerners who have spent their lives primarily sitting in a chair don't have the hip flexibility to be comfortable in a traditional cross-legged posture without some type of stretching program.

Conversely, here’s a funny story. I’ve been doing cross legged meditation for around 40 years and my hips and legs are very flexible. Towards the end of a major surgery I had a year or so ago, I was facing upwards on the operating table, and as I was unconscious, my left foot had simply flipped sideways, facing outward from my body. The surgeon feared that somehow he had accidentally broken my leg!!

[puggily]

I stopped trying to sit on a cushion a while ago. Too much pain, discomfort in my back and hips, paresthesia, etc. I switched to a chair with a nice supporting back and no arm rests. My meditation has improved dramatically. I keep in mind the 7-point posture while I am in the chair. I am no yogi so this works best for me.

[justsit]

This if often more of a problem for men, whose pelvic structure is narrower than women's.

Here's a nice set of hip opening yoga postures. The key is to stretch gently, especially when just starting. Even five minutes a day or before each meditation session will be helpful, and as PVS mentioned, after a while your body will do it naturally.
https://www.yogabasics.com/connect/yoga ... p-openers/

[justsit]

From a strictly physical point of view, Westerners who have spent their lives primarily sitting in a chair don't have the hip flexibility to be comfortable in a traditional cross-legged posture without some type of stretching program.

Conversely, here’s a funny story. I’ve been doing cross legged meditation for around 40 years and my hips and legs are very flexible. Towards the end of a major surgery I had a year or so ago, I was facing upwards on the operating table, and as I was unconscious, my left foot had simply flipped sideways, facing outward from my body. The surgeon feared that somehow he had accidentally broken my leg!!

That's funny, reminds me how I once startled the gynecologist...back in another life...

[bowsamic]

It depends on what school of Buddhism you follow.

If you practise Zen (which literally means "meditation") then yeah you probably need to find a way to meditate somehow, but you should ask your teacher.

If you practise Pure Land Buddhism you might not need to, depending on the sect. For example I am a Shin Buddhist and traditionally we do not meditate, same for Jodo Shu. Someone might say "ah but isn't recitation a form of meditation?" and yeah it can be but in Jodo Shinshu we don't usually recite nembutsu either, usually just a few times every now and again as a form of thanks to Amida.

So it really depends.

But one thing I wanted to say is that you should be extremely careful. I have a bad long-term (maybe even permanent) knee injury from sitting meditation. Specifically I now have patella tracking disorder. My knees "pop" when I straighten my leg, so walking hurts after periods that aren't even that long, such as an hour or so.

[DharmaJunior]

I have a bad long-term (maybe even permanent) knee injury from sitting meditation. Specifically I now have patella tracking disorder. My knees "pop" when I straighten my leg, so walking hurts after periods that aren't even that long, such as an hour or so.

Can you be certain that is a 100% cause as a opposed to a co-relation or co-incidence? Patella tracking, as far as my memory will allow, has to do with muscular imbalances. Yes, sitting for too long can be the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Yoga has already been suggested five posts above, but it may also be due to overly internally or externally rotated femurs as a result of muscular weakness. So maybe research hip anatomy and do strengthening exercises and definitely yoga to build tolerance for end range stretching. Muscles around the knee, such as weak 'vastus medius' can also cause problems.

[bowsamic]

I have a bad long-term (maybe even permanent) knee injury from sitting meditation. Specifically I now have patella tracking disorder. My knees "pop" when I straighten my leg, so walking hurts after periods that aren't even that long, such as an hour or so.

Can you be certain that is a 100% cause as a opposed to a co-relation or co-incidence? Patella tracking, as far as my memory will allow, has to do with muscular imbalances. Yes, sitting for too long can be the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Yoga has already been suggested five posts above, but it may also be due to overly internally or externally rotated femurs as a result of muscular weakness. So maybe research hip anatomy and do strengthening exercises and definitely yoga to build tolerance for end range stretching. Muscles around the knee, such as weak 'vastus medius' can also cause problems.

I think there was muscular imbalance but it can be triggered by repetitive strain, which sitting definitely was.

Also in terms of solving it, I'm going to the physiotherapist, but it isn't easy at all to fix. That is why I'm warning others.

Anyway, it is pretty much the definitive reason why I stopped sitting and sought a Buddhist tradition that did not require it. I am not sacrificing my bodily health. Sometimes people get a bit defensive when I tell them this.

[DharmaJunior]

I am not sacrificing my bodily health. Sometimes people get a bit defensive when I tell them this.

Well, those people are probably not testing your core integrity and self worth, but I think maybe you know that already. I know, utters are a constant thorn in the side. Anyway, apologies for muttering on, so best wishes.