The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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Virgo
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The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Virgo »

This documentary has a nice section about the Proto-Indo-European language as well as the origins and spread of the Proto-Indo European peoples:





History Time really has some amazing documentaries. This one is part of a larger playlist on the vikings.

:anjali: Virg0
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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"about the Proto-Indo-European language as well as the origins and spread of the Proto-Indo European peoples"

I have watched most of the video now, and it tells the wellknown and widely accepted view, that is accepted in the western European countries. But it has not been accepted by Indian and Russian scientists, you should know.

So much so that I feel there is an ideological impetus behind the invasion of Ukraina. And that it is no accident that India is supporting the Russian war-economy quite openly. This ideological difference of view about the Proto-Indo-European culture/languages is so strong that it can fuel the war in Ukraina for a long time, I feel.

If you didn't know it, there are hundreds of videos in Youtube that prove it 'scientifically' that Proto-Indo-Europeans did not bring anything at all to India!

This being the case, the secret war-impetus may be that it is necessary to wipe off from the surface of the Earth the european population that has fallen into "the wrong ideology of Proto-Indo-Europeans".

Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Miorita »

The topic has nothing to do with Dharma.

This however is in tune with Languages and Communication:



Following on the above idea, perhaps a program of speaking to any animal needs to be developed and compiled.
It would be a nice task. Then we would know more of what animals think/feel.
Thanks for your attention!
Last edited by Miorita on Sat Feb 18, 2023 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am If you didn't know it, there are hundreds of videos in Youtube that prove it 'scientifically' that Proto-Indo-Europeans did not bring anything at all to India!
Interesting. How do they explain the correspondences between the proto indo-european language family members? Do they posit an Indian origin of this language family which then spread westwards?
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am "about the Proto-Indo-European language as well as the origins and spread of the Proto-Indo European peoples"

I have watched most of the video now, and it tells the wellknown and widely accepted view, that is accepted in the western European countries. But it has not been accepted by Indian and Russian scientists, you should know.

So much so that I feel there is an ideological impetus behind the invasion of Ukraina. And that it is no accident that India is supporting the Russian war-economy quite openly. This ideological difference of view about the Proto-Indo-European culture/languages is so strong that it can fuel the war in Ukraina for a long time, I feel.

If you didn't know it, there are hundreds of videos in Youtube that prove it 'scientifically' that Proto-Indo-Europeans did not bring anything at all to India!

This being the case, the secret war-impetus may be that it is necessary to wipe off from the surface of the Earth the european population that has fallen into "the wrong ideology of Proto-Indo-Europeans".

Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
I am certain that the causes of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and India's tacit commercial support for Russia, have absolutely nothing to do with proto-indo-european.
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Malcolm »

Bristollad wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:27 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am If you didn't know it, there are hundreds of videos in Youtube that prove it 'scientifically' that Proto-Indo-Europeans did not bring anything at all to India!
Interesting. How do they explain the correspondences between the proto indo-european language family members? Do they posit an Indian origin of this language family which then spread westwards?
The Hindutva view, promulgated in the west by people like David Frawley, is that everything comes from India. Of course, Michael Witzel shredded Frawley’s contentions about this.

Nonetheless, the Hindutva people are correct to note that the way tne Indo-European invasion theory was framed was basically racist.

Even so, there is overwhelming evidence for successive migrations of Indo-European speaking people migrating out of the Central Asian Steppes, both into India around 1500 BCE, as well as westward into Syria (think Hittites), etc. Dumezil outlines the deep narrative structures in myth and culture , which are distributed from northern India to Scandinavia, and everywhere in between.
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Virgo »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am
I have watched most of the video now, and it tells the wellknown and widely accepted view, that is accepted in the western European countries. But it has not been accepted by Indian and Russian scientists, you should know.

So much so that I feel there is an ideological impetus behind the invasion of Ukraina. And that it is no accident that India is supporting the Russian war-economy quite openly. This ideological difference of view about the Proto-Indo-European culture/languages is so strong that it can fuel the war in Ukraina for a long time, I feel.
Hi Aemilius, this thread was posted in the language forum because it is about the spread of the Proto-Indo-European language primarily. Of course, that came with the spread of the Proto-Indo-European peoples. If you believe otherwise, that is fine. But your argument is mostly about the spread of the Proto-Indo-European peoples, and not primarily about the spread of their language, which is a consequence of the spread of those people. Would you please start a thread in another section where we could continue this conversation?

This particular discussion really isn't appropriate in the language forum.

Thanks,

Virgo
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:00 pm The Hindutva view, promulgated in the west by people like David Frawley, is that everything comes from India.
I know Frawly promulgated this idea, but I never looked into it because it was pretty clear that it wasn't based in fact. It is good to know that Michael Witzel (and I am sure others) have made a good case against it.

It's unfortunate because some of Frawley's books on yoga, Ayurveda, etc. are really good. I have read a few of them.
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:00 pm Even so, there is overwhelming evidence for successive migrations of Indo-European speaking people migrating out of the Central Asian Steppes, both into India around 1500 BCE, as well as westward into Syria (think Hittites), etc. Dumezil outlines the deep narrative structures in myth and culture , which are distributed from northern India to Scandinavia, and everywhere in between.
This is also a very good point.

:smile:

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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Virgo »

Virgo wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:00 pm Even so, there is overwhelming evidence for successive migrations of Indo-European speaking people migrating out of the Central Asian Steppes, both into India around 1500 BCE, as well as westward into Syria (think Hittites), etc. Dumezil outlines the deep narrative structures in myth and culture , which are distributed from northern India to Scandinavia, and everywhere in between.
This is also a very good point.

:smile:

Virgo
I am going to have to put Dumezil on my reading list.

Virgo
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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Bristollad wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:27 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am If you didn't know it, there are hundreds of videos in Youtube that prove it 'scientifically' that Proto-Indo-Europeans did not bring anything at all to India!
Interesting. How do they explain the correspondences between the proto indo-european language family members? Do they posit an Indian origin of this language family which then spread westwards?
Quite right, there is an Out Of India -theory of languages. You must have lot of unused time and infinite patience, as there seems to be no end to this forest or world of opposing views. Some of these views are more crude (and militant) than others, this appears to be a more intelligent one: The Complete Linguistic Case for The OUT-OF-INDIA Theory (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/live/4VrqClBvLso?feature=share
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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Aemilius wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:55 am
Bristollad wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:27 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am If you didn't know it, there are hundreds of videos in Youtube that prove it 'scientifically' that Proto-Indo-Europeans did not bring anything at all to India!
Interesting. How do they explain the correspondences between the proto indo-european language family members? Do they posit an Indian origin of this language family which then spread westwards?
Quite right, there is an Out Of India -theory of languages. You must have lot of unused time and infinite patience, as there seems to be no end to this forest or world of opposing views. Some of these views are more crude (and militant) than others, this appears to be a more intelligent one: The Complete Linguistic Case for The OUT-OF-INDIA Theory (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/live/4VrqClBvLso?feature=share
Thank you. It's quite interesting listening. I'm not invested in either theory, but his habit of labelling anything he disagrees with as childish or fraudulent is a bit off-putting. It does sound as if he's started with his answer and then looked for evidence that proves it rather than looking at the evidence and trying to determine what might have occurred. I'm sure some arguing for a Pontic Steppe origin could also be similarly criticised. Scientists, philosophers, their arguments and theories are not immune prevailing social influences, as the study of the history of science shows. Even if one day we amass unassailable evidence one way or the other, I'm sure some will still cling to their preferred model.

The way he bases his historical arguments on Vedic texts reminds me of the way some have tried to use the Hebrew Bible.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:30 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.
Ptolemy identifies the central Asian steppes as the place where the Kurus live.
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:40 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:30 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.
Ptolemy identifies the central Asian steppes as the place where the Kurus live.
They could be Xirong or Yeniseian people historically, both whom roamed as far as the regions around the Altai mountains.
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Sādhaka »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:30 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.

Theosophists (Manly P. Hall 33° et al) suggest the Gobi Desert.

Not too far off....

Turanians, Tataria, Tartary, etc. (e.g. see John Yarker)
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Feb 20, 2023 2:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:19 pm The DNA evidence:

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/n ... n-homeland
:thumbsup:
That's a much better source than the Theosophists!

:thanks:
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 2:31 am
Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:30 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.

Theosophists (Manly P. Hall 33° et al) suggest the Gobi Desert.

Not too far off....

Turanians, Tataria, Tartary, etc. (e.g. see John Yarker)
Unlikely because Gobi desert conditions are harsh and too extreme to support large population of humans. On the other hand, regions between the Altai mountains and the Baikal lake have great lakes, rivers and moderate climate which provide excellent living conditions for nomadic tribes and the scenery there are also captivating enough to lead people into thinking that its some kinds of utopia .
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Aemilius »

Bristollad wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:55 am
Bristollad wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:27 pm
Interesting. How do they explain the correspondences between the proto indo-european language family members? Do they posit an Indian origin of this language family which then spread westwards?
Quite right, there is an Out Of India -theory of languages. You must have lot of unused time and infinite patience, as there seems to be no end to this forest or world of opposing views. Some of these views are more crude (and militant) than others, this appears to be a more intelligent one: The Complete Linguistic Case for The OUT-OF-INDIA Theory (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/live/4VrqClBvLso?feature=share
Thank you. It's quite interesting listening. I'm not invested in either theory, but his habit of labelling anything he disagrees with as childish or fraudulent is a bit off-putting. It does sound as if he's started with his answer and then looked for evidence that proves it rather than looking at the evidence and trying to determine what might have occurred. I'm sure some arguing for a Pontic Steppe origin could also be similarly criticised. Scientists, philosophers, their arguments and theories are not immune prevailing social influences, as the study of the history of science shows. Even if one day we amass unassailable evidence one way or the other, I'm sure some will still cling to their preferred model.

The way he bases his historical arguments on Vedic texts reminds me of the way some have tried to use the Hebrew Bible.
It is good that you are able to listen to his ideas. Otherwise we are in the situation that we regard our science as given and well-established and we rest in the blissfully ignorant belief that "science" has the same signifigance in India, Russia and elsewhere, which it doesn't.
It is good that we atleast know that "science" has a different meaning elswehere in the world. In India they have also found genetic (DNA) evidence confirming their views and ideas! (I have seen some news in Hindu Times on this), just in case some one thinks that the DNA research has finally proven the case for good.
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"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:40 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:30 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:37 am Naturally I hope that I am utterly wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.
Ptolemy identifies the central Asian steppes as the place where the Kurus live.
This conception of Kurus or Kuru people is a later one. Later than the one contaned in the Mount Sumeru world view, because the UttaraKuru of the Mount Sumeru world view lies on the other side of the world axis or Mt Sumeru. Mt Sumeru is the world axis and it is understood to be exactly where the North Star is, which at the North pole. This world view of a world pillar at the North pole was spread over a vast area of Siberian, shamanistic and buddhistic cultures.

I think that originally the world axis (and Mt Sumeru) was at the South pole. But it got shifted to the North pole, at some point in history.


SIBERIAN MYTHOLOGY
332
THE PILLAR OF THE WORLD
THE REGULAR diurnal movement of the stars round an axis at the North Star, the reasons for which never- ending rotation were earlier unknown, gave birth to an idea that this apparent centre of the universe was formed by some object which could be represented in concrete form, and which was, in addition, believed to support the roof of the sky. This belief we have seen to be held by the Lapps, etc., and relics of a similar belief are to be found among most of the peoples of the Northern Hemisphere.
From this belief spring the curious names given by the Altaic stocks to the North Star. The Mongols, Buriats, Kalmucks, and the Altai Tatars and Uigurs call the star in question “ The golden pillar ”; the Kirghis, Bashkirs and certain other Siberian Tatar tribes call it “The iron pillar the Teleuts “The lone post,” and the Tungus-Orotshons “ The golden post.” From the similarity of the names given it by these widely separated peoples we may conclude that the conception of a sky-supporting pillar reaches back among the Altaic race to a comparatively early period.1 In a tale of the Yakuts in which the world is regarded as having gradually developed from a small beginning, this “ iron tree ” boasts: “ When the heavens and the earth commenced to grow, I grew with them.” Although none of the available sources mention directly that the peoples of the Altaic race made images of this great world-pillar, we can still be reasonably certain that they did so from the fact that several of the more northern peoples • have kept up this custom even to our days. These peoples were under Turco-Tatar influence,

332 of 587



SIBERIAN MYTHOLOGY
336
which was to protect the earth and life on the earth. To this points also the view still prevalent in some places, viz., that the sky is a kind of great tent-roof stretched over the earth. The Yakuts say that the sky consists of several overlapping tightly stretched skins. The Buriats see in the Milky Way “ a stitched seam,” and a certain being says with pride: “Long, long ago, when I was young, I sewed the sky together.” 5 Sometimes the gods open slightly the sky-cover to see what is happening on the earth. In this way the Chuvash, among others, explain the flight of meteors. Lucky the one who sees this “ crack in the sky,” as he obtains what he at that moment wishes or begs of God.6 Similarly, the Ostiaks believe that God grants everything desired of him while “ the door of Heaven ” is open.7 The same phenonemon is also meant by the Buriats when they speak of the “ door of Heaven,” which the gods sometimes open for an instant. When this “ door ” is open, which lasts only for a second, “ a wonderful light shines from the sky, which makes the whole world glow in a strange fashion.” 8 This childish idea of the light-phenome- non which follows the flight of a meteor through the belt of air, has earlier been very general both in Asia and Europe. Quite as general has been the habit of expressing at such times some wish, which it is believed will be fulfilled.
The sky having thus been regarded as a kind of tent-roof, which, stretched from a great post or pillar, covered the earth, it is comprehensible that the stars should then have been only a kind of hole in this cover. The worst hole was the Pleiades, from which winds and cold were believed to stream over the earth.
This conception of the sky as a kind of roof, is, without doubt, of extreme age and the product of an extremely early culture. Obviously, the primitive dwelling-house of man him- self gave direction to his imagination, when he attempted to create for himself a picture of the surrounding world.
THE PILLAR OF THE WORLD
337
tent-like, e.g., in the 40th chapter of Isaiah, in which God is described as: “ He who stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.”
Besides the above conception, in which the world-pillar ap- pears as the supporter of the sky, another is met with, accord- ing to which it is the tethering-post of the stars wandering in the sky. The fact that, seen from the earth, the stars seem to be eternally revolving round the sky-post, awakened the idea of bonds attaching these to one another. As the peoples related to the Turks sometimes imagined the stars to be a great drove of horses, we can understand why, in the tales of these people, the world-pillar is often called a mighty tether- ing-post for horses. As such the Yakuts call it “ the horse- post ruler.” The Buriats have tales of the nine sons of a spirit named Boshintoi, living in the sky; these sons, as skilful blacksmiths, taught men to prepare iron, and are therefore worshipped and praised in the following words: “The nine white smiths of Boshintoi . . . made of the North Star a horse- post and of the golden lake a race course.” 11 In the same way as the Nomads of Central Asia have a post for the tether- ing of their steeds before their buildings, the gods are said to fasten theirs to the heaven-post. Certain Siberian Tatar tribes believe the gods to live in a tent in the sky, in front of which is a “ golden horse-post.” As Karjalainen remarks, the Ostiaks of Vasyugan, in their tales, have also adopted from the Tatars “ the Iron post, the Stone post, on the side of the sun, created by Torem (the god of Heaven), in which there is an iron ring large enough to admit a sleeved arm,” and to which the driving-reindeer is bound. Similarly, the Voguls speak of “ The holy iron pillar of God erected for the tether- ing of the holy animal with many-coloured thighs,” erected before the dwelling of the god of Heaven.
In the folk-lore of the Ostiaks, as seen from the above, a “ stone ” pillar is also mentioned. A strange, rectangular, transparent pillar of stone, three fathoms in height, appears

336 of 587

texts
The Mythology of all races ...



SIBERIAN MYTHOLOGY
342
tion tale relates how Ulgen when creating the earth, sat on a “ golden mountain ” where the sun and the moon always shine, and how this mountain later descended, hiding the earth ; the edges of the sky did not, however, reach to the earth itself.7
The idea of a heavenly mountain appears also in the follow- ing tale of the Goldes living in North-East Siberia: “When the gods built Heaven, they made it of stone, but when it was ready the people below began to be afraid that it would fall down on them, wherefore the gods blew under the arch so that the air thus formed hid the arch from the sight of men.” 8 Without doubt, this picture of Heaven is closely connected with “ the mountain ” and has developed from it. This idea of the stone arch cannot have arisen among the Goldes, as this structure is quite unknown to them, as it is to all other North Siberian tribes.
In the tales of the Mongols, Buriats, and Kalmucks the world-mountain — Sumbur, Sumur, or Sumer — has a name in which the central mountain of the inhabitants of India, Sumeru, is easily recognized, and the beliefs connected with the same have spread ready-formed along with a stream of civilization from India to the peoples of Central Asia. Whether this mountain Sumeru or Meru originated in India, in connection with some actual mountain there, is difficult to say. As far back as can be traced it has been a cosmologic belief.
Where then, is the summit of this earth-mountain? We might suppose it to be at the summit of Heaven, directly above us, and, as such, the apex of a hollow sky. It was not, how- ever, envisaged thus, but instead, its peak rises to the sky at the North Star where the axis of the sky is situated, and where, on the peak, the dwelling of the Over-god and his “ golden throne ” are situated. To this idea points also the assumption, met with everywhere in Asia, that the world-mountain is in the north. This appears quite clearly in a Buriat tale reflecting Indian views of life: “ In the beginning was only water and a frog (turtle), which gazed into the water. God turned this
THE WORLD-MOUNTAIN
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animal over and created the world on its belly. On each foot he built a continent, but on the navel of the frog he founded the Sumbur-mountain. On the summit of this mountain is the North Star.” In another tale in which a temple is placed on the summit of Sumbur, the North Star is the golden spire of the tower of this temple.
The cosmic mountain rising in this part of the sky was known long ago to the great civilized peoples of Nearer Asia. This idea appears also in the Bible. In the 14th chapter of Isaiah a proud being, who wished to “ be like the most high,” is described in the following words: “ For thou hast said in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congre- gation, in the sides of the north.” As the throne of God is believed to be on the summit of the world-mountain in the north, this point of the compass was the direction of the prayers of the Mandeans.
Although the idea of this wonderful, cosmic mountain, as its name denotes, arose in India and travelled with a stream of civilization to the Mongol tribes, the same belief reached the Turco-Tatar peoples by other roads. The Suro (“ Majesty ”) mountain, appearing in the tales of the Altai Tatars, has doubt- less originated in Persia, as also the seven gods, who are be- lieved to dwell on this heavenly mountain and whose name Kudai is a loan-word from the Persian.10 That the idea of the heavenly mountain was known also far away in Europe, is shown by the Himinbjorg (heaven-mountain) of Scandi- navian tales and by a Finnish poem on the origin of fire, in which it is asked where fire was born, the answer being: “ There on the navel of the sky, on the peak of the famous mountain.”
In comparing the above traditions we notice in them two leading ideas, one in which this world-mountain is merely a giant mountain in the centre of the earth-disc with a summit touching the sky, another in which the mountain itself is situated,

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texts
The Mythology of all races ... https://archive.org/details/mythologyof ... 1/mode/2up

by
Gray, Louis H. (Louis Herbert), 1875-1955; Moore, George Foot, 1851-1931; MacCulloch, J. A. (John Arnott), 1868-1950


Publication date
1916
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:05 am ...

This conception of Kurus or Kuru people is a later one. ...

SIBERIAN MYTHOLOGY
332
THE PILLAR OF THE WORLD
...

Publication date 1916 (emphasis added)
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