the fifth precept, alcohol

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mystic_poet
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the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by mystic_poet »

i decided to hold five precepts. my question is about the fifth precept.

i dont have alcohol when im alone, but when i meet my friends, for example they have alcohol or smoke some weed. what happens i join them and drink a half or one glass of beer? just to be a part of the community?

we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.

before something like this, should i say: 'dear dharma, buddha and sangha, i will have one glass of beer, you know, we are good guys, we ll just have some fun?

im not a monk. just a nuts with anxiety.

thanks..
DharmaJunior
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by DharmaJunior »

It's a bit rich coming from me, so if you can drink sensibly then- as a layperson - then do it a little bit. Clearly the trick is not to get intoxicated and indulge, but for a lot of people it's a slippery slope. For every sensible person there's another nine that fall to some extent. I personally blame the ubiquity and/or ease of access.

For me it has to be a thirty mile road trip followed by some kind of treasure hunt not thirty meters away and constantly open for business. :mrgreen: but I'm an all or nothing guy and it's a pity that I don't put quite as much effort in practice as I do racking up the booze. It's been in tandem now for nearly two decades, so I'm following both the three jewels and the three lumps of coal. In case you know know what they are, it's dopamine (race to the bottom), passivity or lack of engagement) and cult of self.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Technically if you break a precept, you break a precept.
The 5th one, as it was explained to me, is more of a safeguard for the previous 4 as well as to not cloud the mind.
But ultimately you create your own consequences. Nobody else is holding you to it.
I have been in the same situation. It all depends. Sometimes it might be better to just drink the beer than to go onto some long explanation about how you are following Buddhist precepts blah blah blah to people who are just going to think it’s weird.
I think, as long as you aren’t hurting anyone or damaging your own dharma practice, it’s much better if you don’t drink, but don’t get bent out of shape about having a little bit.
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Soma999
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by Soma999 »

The problem with precepts is that they know no context. Sometime drinking a little could be joyful, sometime it brings nothing, sometime it is dangerous or inapropriate, sometime alcool is present in a medicine…

And the precept does not go into details.

I tried the strict application of precepts in their form, and frankly i didn’t find it bring me much.

Why ? First, no killing, stealing, gossip, sexual misconduct… i mean if you follow the dharma, this is just being coherent to follow those rules to the best of one's ability.

In the eight vows, not singing and dancing, no high bed… for me, a high or low bed change nothing, i could not care less about this subject. Not singing and dancing, much could be said : dancing and singing can be pleasant, good for health, but also used for opening the heart and achieving higher states of consciousness. What is so virtuous to live without a smile, all serious, so cut of from life ?

Behind the precept - a form - there is an intention, an essence.

I found interesting to focus on the essence and don’t get stuck in a form that may not bring you anything valuable as it does not speak to you.

For exemple, for the fifth precept, that would be : stay lucid, aware, cautious. Then how and when taking alcool, if you want some, it is up to you.

So, if you consider the essence of the precept, you may see you don’t respect it much even thought you never drink, and you may respect it even thought you take alcool in moderation. Thd heart of the precept is its essence.

Then of course, during special ceremonies, like nyung-ne, the precepts are hold also in a very strict form, bit it is for a short time.

When precepts are there for your life, understand their intent behind the words, and then don’t get stuck in a form that does not help you.

By giving attention to the essence, i find the precepts fills me with guidance and a good direction. When i get stuck in the form, i become nervous, and follow rules that doesn’t speak to me at all.

The precepts are at your service to help you in your path.
reiun
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by reiun »

Best to avoid totally, as per this article:

Even a Little Alcohol Can be Harmful to Your Health, Research Shows

Becks offers a NA beer that is a possible substitue. The bottle is green and the label resembles regular beer, just with the NA spelled out. Heineken NA is horrible. Clausthaler NA not as acceptable as Becks. Pauli Girl NA not too bad.

To go cold turkey for problematic drinking, consult your medical doctor. Disulfuram (antabuse) may be worth finding out about.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

mystic_poet wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am i decided to hold five precepts. my question is about the fifth precept.

i dont have alcohol when im alone, but when i meet my friends, for example they have alcohol or smoke some weed. what happens i join them and drink a half or one glass of beer? just to be a part of the community?

we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.

before something like this, should i say: 'dear dharma, buddha and sangha, i will have one glass of beer, you know, we are good guys, we ll just have some fun?

im not a monk. just a nuts with anxiety.

thanks..
If it’s not a problem for you then it’s not. I will say though, if your friends are perpetually drunk and/or stoned, and you really want to consider your practice, it might good to think about a new social group, or at least abstaining sometimes.

If you feel it doesn’t really affect your practice, I suppose you can just continue, but I will say IMO social groups primarily based on substance use aren’t great for practicing Dharma, though I know from experience that at a certain age it’s just how most socialization goes down
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Malcolm
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by Malcolm »

mystic_poet wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am i decided to hold five precepts. my question is about the fifth precept.

i dont have alcohol when im alone, but when i meet my friends, for example they have alcohol or smoke some weed. what happens i join them and drink a half or one glass of beer? just to be a part of the community?

we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.

before something like this, should i say: 'dear dharma, buddha and sangha, i will have one glass of beer, you know, we are good guys, we ll just have some fun?

im not a monk. just a nuts with anxiety.

thanks..
Just don’t get drunk.
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ThreeVows
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by ThreeVows »

mystic_poet wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am i decided to hold five precepts. my question is about the fifth precept.

i dont have alcohol when im alone, but when i meet my friends, for example they have alcohol or smoke some weed. what happens i join them and drink a half or one glass of beer? just to be a part of the community?
IMO, we all figure out how to resonate individually with precepts, with wisdom, etc. There are differing opinions on the 5th precept. From the Kosha, FWIW:
―Why should the Upasaka renounce a single transgression of disobedience and not others? 34d. In order that the
other rules may be kept. One who drinks strong liquor will not keep the other rules. The Abhidharmikas maintain that
strong liquor does not have the characteristic of being a transgression by its nature. A transgression by its nature is
committed only by a person whose mind is defiled: now it happens that, as a remedy, one can drink strong liquor in a
quantity where it is not inebriating. But the mind of one who drinks knowing that such a quantity is inebriating is defiled;
the mind is not defiled when one drinks knowing that such a quantity is not inebriating.
Such is not the opinion of the Vinayadharas. [According to them, strong liquor is a transgression by its very nature.] To
Upali, who asked him, ‗How should one attend to illnesses?‘ the Blessed One answered, ‗Except, Upali, by transgression
of nature.‘ And, the Blessed One did not permit strong liquors to sick Sakyans: ‗Those who recognize me as their master
should not drink any strong liquor, even a drop on the point of a blade of grass.‘ Since the Blessed One forbad only
transgression by nature in the case of illness (as in the Upalisutra) and yet does not permit strong liquor, it is clear that
strong liquor is a transgression by its very nature…
[Abhidharmikas respond:] it is forbidden to the ill, and this with a view to preventing the unpleasant consequence of
strong liquor, because its inebriating quantity is undetermined…
[Conclusion:] Strong liquor is only a transgression of disobedience. The formula thus contains the words pramadasthana
in order to have one understand that one should renounce strong liquor because it is the cause of all failures of
mindfulness.‖
Best wishes.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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KeithA
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by KeithA »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:19 pm
mystic_poet wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am i decided to hold five precepts. my question is about the fifth precept.

i dont have alcohol when im alone, but when i meet my friends, for example they have alcohol or smoke some weed. what happens i join them and drink a half or one glass of beer? just to be a part of the community?

we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.

before something like this, should i say: 'dear dharma, buddha and sangha, i will have one glass of beer, you know, we are good guys, we ll just have some fun?

im not a monk. just a nuts with anxiety.

thanks..
Just don’t get drunk.
This.

For me, this precept is about anything we put in our bodies that makes us lose control and knocks us off our practice. My body and mind reacts very differently when I have a cup of coffee, versus drinking a whole pot. Alcohol is like that, for me. Everyone is different, though.

Rigidness in life rarely works out well.

Hanging out smoking pot and drink alcohol is a bad situation. How can we use this bad situation to help? That’s correct situation, direction, and function.

_/|\_
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by Kim O'Hara »

reiun wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:51 pm ...Becks offers a NA beer that is a possible substitue. The bottle is green and the label resembles regular beer, just with the NA spelled out. Heineken NA is horrible. Clausthaler NA not as acceptable as Becks. Pauli Girl NA not too bad.
There are also "Light", as in low-alcohol, beers. Similarly, some taste okay, others don't, and they can be a way of fitting into the social group without getting drunk. There are low-alcohol and no-alcohol wines, too, but they probably go with a different social setting.

But I agree with those who have said that a friendship group centred on booze and other recreational drugs is a friendship group you probably need to ease out of.

:namaste:
Kim
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

The precepts can be very powerful.

I used to get very drunk almost every night for about a decade, often falling down, or passing out, or throwing up. I was a real mess. I tried many times to stop, but the craving was too strong.

Then when the occasion arose, I took the five precepts from my refuge lama (He didn’t mention them during the original refuge ceremony. Sometimes they are included with refuge, and sometimes not).

Immediately I lost all craving for alcohol.

From that day on, except one time, I never had any craving for alcohol. Even when accepting a small taste, it didn’t trigger any desire. The thought of it was kind of repulsive. I haven’t had any desire to drink for about 30 years now.

I just wanted to share this story because the precepts are not simply a list of do’s and don’ts. They can be very powerful. They can save your life, or at least they can really help the serious practitioner along the path. I don’t want to be overly poetic about it, but one should probably look at the five precepts way one would look a handful of powerful charms or wish-granting gems, in the sense that, realizing their value, one should guard them as much as possible.

At the same time, if one can’t really experience it that way yet, that’s okay. At some point in the future one’s appreciation may change. If that’s the case, if you have taken the 5th precept, try your best to keep it, but don’t beat yourself up over having a beer now. It’s not that big of a deal. Don’t get hung up on little things.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
master of puppets
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by master of puppets »

Thanks for being honest.

a few minutes ago ı was at the market. they say do the discount on the alcohols. ı get three bottle of wine. but no desire to drink now. may be later, 6 months or so.. anyway they won't go sour. 😄
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

mystic_poet wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am
we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.
One thing I remember from my drinking days was talking a huge amount of bullshit when drunk, which was often. It’s not like it was the worst thing in the world, but having a social group where talking shit about other people was the norm wasn’t a very good thing.

Not saying this happens with you or your friends of course, just saying that generally speaking drunk and stoned conversations of the the worthless variety.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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master of puppets
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by master of puppets »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:24 pm
mystic_poet wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am
we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.
One thing I remember from my drinking days was talking a huge amount of bullshit when drunk, which was often. It’s not like it was the worst thing in the world, but having a social group where talking shit about other people was the norm wasn’t a very good thing.

Not saying this happens with you or your friends of course, just saying that generally speaking drunk and stoned conversations of the the worthless variety.
You mean when break down a precept others follow as well or at least disrupt the eightfold path in order??
Last edited by master of puppets on Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

master of puppets wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:20 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:24 pm
mystic_poet wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:24 am
we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.
One thing I remember from my drinking days was talking a huge amount of bullshit when drunk, which was often. It’s not like it was the worst thing in the world, but having a social group where talking shit about other people was the norm wasn’t a very good thing.

Not saying this happens with you or your friends of course, just saying that generally speaking drunk and stoned conversations of the the worthless variety.
You mean when break down a precept others follow as well or at least disrupt the eightfold path in order??
They can. It’s really not about the alcohol though, it’s about the person using and reacting to it. Some people can have a drink or two and be just fine, others get sucked into all kinds of stuff that isn’t great.

As but one example, alcohol abuse has significant associations with fighting and domestic violence. It doesn’t mean alcohol causes these things, it means it lowers inhibitions and can cause people to act in ways they normally wouldn’t, based on their prior causes and conditions.

The precepts are pretty simple, they are what modern psychologists would call a behavioral strategy, where you avoid a certain outcome by not putting yourself at risk in the first place.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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master of puppets
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by master of puppets »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:40 pm
master of puppets wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:20 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:24 pm

One thing I remember from my drinking days was talking a huge amount of bullshit when drunk, which was often. It’s not like it was the worst thing in the world, but having a social group where talking shit about other people was the norm wasn’t a very good thing.

Not saying this happens with you or your friends of course, just saying that generally speaking drunk and stoned conversations of the the worthless variety.
You mean when break down a precept others follow as well or at least disrupt the eightfold path in order??
They can. It’s really not about the alcohol though, it’s about the person using and reacting to it. Some people can have a drink or two and be just fine, others get sucked into all kinds of stuff that isn’t great.

As but one example, alcohol abuse has significant associations with fighting and domestic violence. It doesn’t mean alcohol causes these things, it means it lowers inhibitions and can cause people to act in ways they normally wouldn’t, based on their prior causes and conditions.

The precepts are pretty simple, they are what modern psychologists would call a behavioral strategy, where you avoid a certain outcome by not putting yourself at risk in the first place.
absolutely. worst is when you don't remember what you have done.
DharmaJunior
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by DharmaJunior »

One of the big harms is to family and friends as outlined by jd. My mother worries about me a lot, who's mother doesn't right? So she has given me everything and in return I give her a headache and sour grapes.

Another interesting thing to note are the terms 'functional' and 'alcohol'. Of course one can get into bother anyway, but at least if one is engaged in a wholesome activity then nothing too radical can happen. So long as it's not driving a bus with nice sober people on it. One example for me was sitting for twelve cats in a house with no curtains and t.v. I just had to maintain the cats and do a headcount so by the evening I had an extra twelve cats, or six to begin with. Better to be judged at twelve than carried at six, as they say. :cheers:
anagarika
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by anagarika »

As I once read on some Buddhist forum: "There is no Buddhist police that will bust you if you take intoxicants." You really need to understand the deeper logic behind the precepts to appreciate how smartly they´re designed.

First of all, I find it somewhat unfortunate that the 5 precepts are often framed as rigid rejection or mere restriction (something along the lines "thou shalt not..."). This tends to create natural resistance in the mind and a false impression of being deprived of something pleasurable. In reality, the precepts are better phrased as "the five great gifts" you give to the innumerable beings. You give them the gift of not having to fear you (not taking life), of not having to worry about their possession (not taking what is not given), of not having to stress about losing their partner to you or being threatened by your sexual desire (sexual misconduct), and, finally, of not having to double check everything you say to verify you´re not misleading them (not telling lies). All of these are in fact quite positive, constructive actions that can be a great and reliable source of happiness and self-esteem.

Now, when it comes to the fifth rule, this is the only one of the five that is explicitely said by the Buddha to not have direct negative kammic consequences per se (unlike taking life, smoking a bowl by yourself or with friends does not by itself constitute a negative kammic action). Many Buddhist don´t know and understand this, that´s why especially on the sister forum Dhammawheel many would send you straight to hell for aeons just for lighting it up from time to time :D Absolutely ridiculous and pure adhamma.

However, viewed from another perspective, it could also be said that the fifth precept, despite not having directly to do with accruing negative kamma, might actually be the most important one since it keeps an eye on the remaining four. This has also been described in the suttas - that someone drank too much and violated all the four remaining precepts in a blink of an eye. As already suggested, intoxicants may be a very slippery slope. We could have a very long debate on which substances qualify as substances causing heedlessness and which do not, but I personally draw the line between caffeine and nicotine on the safe side, and all other substances on the potentially more dangerous side.

If you want to be a 4 precept Buddhist, that is possible. However, the Buddha clearly established the five precepts as a sort of compulsory minimum for layity and I see no reason why it should not be possible to avoid alcoholic beverages completely. Yes, you might encounter some social resistance, but my experience is that if you simply stand up for yourself and assert your right to consume or not to consume whatever you deem appropriate, the people around you will eventually accept it. Remember that the Buddha never prohibited sensory pleasures for lay people (again quite contrary to what some Buddhists believe), but he established these boundaries to keep them safe from kammicaly heavy negative actions.

So all in all, you are right that just by taking intoxicants you do not automatically accrue negative kamma, but you put yourself at unnecessarily greater risk of doing so.
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seeker242
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by seeker242 »

It’s still against the precept to have one beer
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: the fifth precept, alcohol

Post by DharmaJunior »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:24 pm It’s still against the precept to have one beer
Well, I guess this is a 'cover all your bases' generic approach without nuance, which does make sense. People who speak of it can do so in a vicarious manner without having to encounter it on a personal level but that's being a bit unfair. Maybe the fifth precept should also cover crystal and smack, but don't get me wrong, alcohol is up there. Alcohol plus tobacco is extremely intoxicating. As far as breaking the previous four precepts I've seen a small percentage of people doing this. Mainly having to willingly ignore social awareness, having to pretend people don't know. People will go about their downward spiral in different ways but again, it mainly affects the close circle of family and friends. Sometimes that goes, then goes the food, then the shelter until there is only the breathe and the substance. A small percentage will lose that before, but there are often deeper issues when people are disenfranchised and can't find a good place in life to express any creativity and apply intelligence.
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