Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post Reply
Bapho
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:13 pm
Location: Argentina

Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by Bapho »

The recognition of the non-duality between the emptiness and clarity of the mind is the "primary awareness of pure presence" (rig-pa'i ye-shes).
User avatar
august
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:23 pm

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by august »

Bapho wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:59 am The recognition of the non-duality between the emptiness and clarity of the mind is the "primary awareness of pure presence" (rig-pa'i ye-shes).
Can you clarify what do you mean/define by "emptiness" in this context?
I am not asking for a "book definition" or a verbatim quote from a guru etc.
Bapho
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:13 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by Bapho »

august wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:05 am
Bapho wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:59 am The recognition of the non-duality between the emptiness and clarity of the mind is the "primary awareness of pure presence" (rig-pa'i ye-shes).
Can you clarify what do you mean/define by "emptiness" in this context?
I am not asking for a "book definition" or a verbatim quote from a guru etc.
I lacked to put some more things to the post. When I wanted to edit it could not. :crying:

The term "empty" is this context, refers to ka-dag or "primordial purity" of the mind, that compares metaphorically with the ability of the mirror of "fill" with reflexes without discriminating at all between beautiful and horrible reflexes. This is la "esence" of the mind that is due to its "empty" nature ...
If you ask me personally, for my background and cultural conditioning, the word "space" seems to me a better "indicator or symbol" that "empty" (which sounds a little nihilist). In another context, the word "silence" also seems appropriate to me.

Returning to what I wanted to ask with the phrase: "The recognition of the non -duality between the void and the clarity of the mind
It is the "primary awareness of the pure presence" (rig-pa'i ye-shes) "
How do these two concepts "primary awareness" (ye-shes) and "pure presence" (rig-pa) interacted?
The phrase is an extract of:

6) "...what one finds is a primal awareness
of pure presence (rig-pa 'i ye-shes), where there is no duality of
emptiness on the one hand and clarity on the other..."
9) "What is this state of presence?
It is a condition of existence (debzhin-
nyid) transcending the limitations of both subject and
object; it is a natural or authentic (gn yug-ma) self-originated
primordial awareness of pure presence."
(The Cicle the Day and Night- CNNR)
User avatar
august
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:23 pm

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by august »

I think posts lock up when someone post a reply.

Here is a quote from The Mirror (CNNR)

... Likewise, if thoughts do not arise this means there is no clarity28, and if clarity is lacking, then the wisdom of the state of Enlightenment cannot manifest. Therefore, there is nothing wrong if there is a lot of movement of thoughts, that is our “quality.” The most important thing is recognition. Basically we can say that in Dzogchen calm state, movement and recognition are one single thing because the true condition cannot be analysed or separated into different aspects. Thoughts arise from the calm state, and the calm state is none other than their own state manifesting. That is why there must neither be accepting or rejecting.

28 - In the Dzogchen teachings “clarity” refers to the natural dimension of thoughts and of the sphere of perceptions when the mind does not enter into judgement.
Bapho
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:13 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by Bapho »

august wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:02 pm I think posts lock up when someone post a reply.

Here is a quote from The Mirror (CNNR)

... Likewise, if thoughts do not arise this means there is no clarity28, and if clarity is lacking, then the wisdom of the state of Enlightenment cannot manifest. Therefore, there is nothing wrong if there is a lot of movement of thoughts, that is our “quality.” The most important thing is recognition. Basically we can say that in Dzogchen calm state, movement and recognition are one single thing because the true condition cannot be analysed or separated into different aspects. Thoughts arise from the calm state, and the calm state is none other than their own state manifesting. That is why there must neither be accepting or rejecting.

28 - In the Dzogchen teachings “clarity” refers to the natural dimension of thoughts and of the sphere of perceptions when the mind does not enter into judgement.
I could see that posts cannot be edited after a while (I don't know how much time) before they are approved and published.

Yes, the aspect of "clarity" is the one compare to the "reflective" capacity that has a mirror, that is, the ability to produce reflexes. You cannot separate the mirror capacity of containing reflexes of its ability to reflect them, are the same thing, that only separates for instruction or explanation. That is why the title is "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind".

It is interesting that the Dzogchen approach does not distinction between the calm and movement of the mind because in reality the important thing is the "recognition" of our true nature that includes both aspects. In other doctrines, if there is a greater emphasis on "quiet the mind", for example in the indications the "Yoga Sutras de Pantajali". In the Dzogchen Semde, the "mental calm" or practice of "Shine" is also given importance but then we must integrate it with the move of the mind or thoughts.
User avatar
august
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:23 pm

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by august »

Bapho wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:42 am Yes, the aspect of "clarity" is the one compare to the "reflective" capacity that has a mirror, that is, the ability to produce reflexes. You cannot separate the mirror capacity of containing reflexes of its ability to reflect them, are the same thing, that only separates for instruction or explanation. That is why the title is "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind".
As I understand it (could be wrong), the reference to a mirror is to point out that the aware mind wont cling to what ever thought it encounters. A thought (emotions, feelings) pops up and "bounces" off the mirror. Leaves no mark or changes the mirror.
Bapho wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:42 am It is interesting that the Dzogchen approach does not distinction between the calm and movement of the mind because in reality the important thing is the "recognition" of our true nature that includes both aspects. In other doctrines, if there is a greater emphasis on "quiet the mind", for example in the indications the "Yoga Sutras de Pantajali". In the Dzogchen Semde, the "mental calm" or practice of "Shine" is also given importance but then we must integrate it with the move of the mind or thoughts.
From the same book:
"The calm state is that space in which thoughts do not arise, but recognition must not be lacking in this state. We must always have the presence of finding ourselves by a lake even if there are no fish jumping."
BTW, get a copy. It's a very short book. They are out of paper books (and that sucks) so you can only get the ebook
Bapho
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:13 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by Bapho »

august wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:20 pm As I understand it (could be wrong), the reference to a mirror is to point out that the aware mind wont cling to what ever thought it encounters. A thought (emotions, feelings) pops up and "bounces" off the mirror. Leaves no mark or changes the mirror.
If I'm not mistaken, when you put "the reference to a mirror is to point out that the aware mind wont cling to what ever thought it encounters" he refers to that he will not cling if his state (that of the mind) is like a mirror because normally if it clings and that is why all the suffering of samsara. What would add, is that the reflexes (thoughts, emotions) "do not come from an origin external" are products from the same mirror. It's like saying that you can't separate anything you perceive from your own perceptor mind, it is all the same. I think it is a good indication to overcome the state of duality "subject and object".
This of the mirror although it is mentioned in several places I found it very well explained in the book;
"The Crystal and The Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra, and Dzogchen" (CNNR)

august wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:20 pm From the same book:
"The calm state is that space in which thoughts do not arise, but recognition must not be lacking in this state. We must always have the presence of finding ourselves by a lake even if there are no fish jumping."
BTW, get a copy. It's a very short book. They are out of paper books (and that sucks) so you can only get the ebook
I think here refers to stay lucid, in presence or mental clarity even though there are no thoughts or "fish jumping in the lake." With the practice of "shine o samatha", drowsiness is common once the amount of thoughts that appear decrease. Look at Amazon if you want books on paper. I do not dislike digital books. I have not bought one on paper for years.
Since we are in "The Literary Club". In addition to the book that I mentions you before, on this point of "fish jumping", add this book:
"An Introduction to the practice of contemplation" (CNNR)
oldbob
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

Excellent recommendations for books on Dzogchen.

:good:

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters whose every word teaches Dzogchen. :bow: :bow: :bow:

I am happy to be called an empty noise maker, beating the drum of emptiness.

As I get older the world makes less and less sense and making meaningless noise on DW is my fun. Nice to see chaos and order reflected in art and so Everything Everywhere All At Once, is the new normal, making sense of the world. Fine business for me with no fixed position (yes, that is my fixed position) but profoundly uncomfortable for those with any tightly held view, and this is reflected in the variety of drum bangers on DW.

Happy to share my 2 cents - while I still can - on what words to use for Dzogchen: Nothing, Nowhere and One by One: going beyond - it is, it isn't, neither or both.

What words can you say about Dzogchen - and "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind" where words don't apply?

What words can you write on air - that will stick? Better to relax and enjoy a good movie with a friend.

"Immediacy" without comment or characteristic - but you never even call it that. Maybe, "Mr. No Name?"

Luminosity, the void, clarity, emptiness, vastness, etc: many words used to talk about the same thing / or not), etc. = fresh translations = translators need to eat?

"Instant Presence" well getting closer because the two words are mutually exclusive - can't exist at the same time.

Well, what does that mean and how could it mean anything?

:heart:

Ah - so that's it! Yup - using words to point beyond words is about as good as it gets.

Way back when - mid-1970s - when I was first studying the Ka Kha Ga, my deep intuition was that "you can't get there from here."

50 years later - with all of the modern translating supports of online dictionaries, I still found that the dictionaries often don't agree - perhaps reflecting the politics (and need to eat) of the dictionary sponsors.

I once suggested that all translations have the word-for-word right below the original - with a drop downs list for the alternatives - and with the corrected grammar, and drop-down alternatives below that. Then those readers who care, can look at the alternatives and make up their own minds, and perhaps approach the dimension of the original enlightened author.

Meanwhile - while waiting for enlightened translators who are not attached to their own ideas - we see restricted translations sold as unrestricted - and at prices that for many poor practitioners are prohibitively expensive. Perhaps this occurs even two clicks away - shamelessly, now, on DW. Perhaps if kind translators published a free - no frills, .pdf translation, along with a high-priced, high production value, version, then all can get the benefit.

If you search: "free Tibetan Buddhist translations" you will find there are many translators who help turn the wheel.

Perhaps if all restricted material is presented with the advice that before reading or practicing the restricted material, it is necessary to contact a lineage holder and have the material introduced, read aloud, and explained by a lineage holder, then this would be even more helpful.

For many years, translators who had private access to a Tibetan source would review their translations with the source, and then make corrections. How many corrections were rightfully attributed to the Tibetan source - we don't know. The key point is that unless the Tibetan source was an enlightened Master the translations still reflected the knowledgeable, but perhaps limited, dimension of the Tibetan. When in recent years, committees of practitioner-scholars vetted translations - perhaps this is closer to the original as the politics of powerful individualism (department chairs) was removed. Still, the translations reflect the collective dimensions (views) of the committee.

Previously you just had single department chairs battling it out. I am sure, with practice they have mellowed.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2718672

Even when a committee's best guess - using multiple sources - is briefly reviewed by an enlightened elderly nonnative speaking Master, this can still result in needless confusion, as with the apparently political denunciation of Jim Valby's excellent translations. Maybe the words were not exactly right for scholars or politicians but for one - and perhaps for many beginner practitioners, they served the purpose of opening the door to the teachings - and turned the Wheel. Hurrah for Jim and his thousands of hours of work with perfect intention.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 35#p654135

Personally, I was very happy with the phrases of "limpid clearness and consummate perspicacity," favorites of Jim's teacher - as this pointed to the essence, even if these phrases were cumbersome and wordy. Hurrah, hurrah for generous translators who publish freely, with links to lineage holders, catching the essence, and making the teachings of the Buddha come alive.

Hurrah for Dr. Guenther who gave it his best in 1975, many, many years ago, and also turned the wheel, introducing many to their first view of Dzogchen.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 79#p337279

As Dzogchen includes all words - and is beyond all words - maybe the choice of words is not so important - except for allowing rambling discussions on DW and giving the Moderators a job when word enthusiasts overreach.

:heart:
Bapho
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:13 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by Bapho »

oldbob wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:18 pm :namaste:

Excellent recommendations for books on Dzogchen.

:good:

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters whose every word teaches Dzogchen. :bow: :bow: :bow:

I am happy to be called an empty noise maker, beating the drum of emptiness.

As I get older the world makes less and less sense and making meaningless noise on DW is my fun. Nice to see chaos and order reflected in art and so Everything Everywhere All At Once, is the new normal, making sense of the world. Fine business for me with no fixed position (yes, that is my fixed position) but profoundly uncomfortable for those with any tightly held view, and this is reflected in the variety of drum bangers on DW.

Happy to share my 2 cents - while I still can - on what words to use for Dzogchen: Nothing, Nowhere and One by One: going beyond - it is, it isn't, neither or both.


What words can you write on air - that will stick? Better to relax and enjoy a good movie with a friend.

"Immediacy" without comment or characteristic - but you never even call it that. Maybe, "Mr. No Name?"

Luminosity, the void, clarity, emptiness, vastness, etc: many words used to talk about the same thing / or not), etc. = fresh translations = translators need to eat?

"Instant Presence" well getting closer because the two words are mutually exclusive - can't exist at the same time.

Well, what does that mean and how could it mean anything?

:heart:

Ah - so that's it! Yup - using words to point beyond words is about as good as it gets.

Way back when - mid-1970s - when I was first studying the Ka Kha Ga, my deep intuition was that "you can't get there from here."

50 years later - with all of the modern translating supports of online dictionaries, I still found that the dictionaries often don't agree - perhaps reflecting the politics (and need to eat) of the dictionary sponsors.

I once suggested that all translations have the word-for-word right below the original - with a drop downs list for the alternatives - and with the corrected grammar, and drop-down alternatives below that. Then those readers who care, can look at the alternatives and make up their own minds, and perhaps approach the dimension of the original enlightened author.

Meanwhile - while waiting for enlightened translators who are not attached to their own ideas - we see restricted translations sold as unrestricted - and at prices that for many poor practitioners are prohibitively expensive. Perhaps this occurs even two clicks away - shamelessly, now, on DW. Perhaps if kind translators published a free - no frills, .pdf translation, along with a high-priced, high production value, version, then all can get the benefit.

If you search: "free Tibetan Buddhist translations" you will find there are many translators who help turn the wheel.

Perhaps if all restricted material is presented with the advice that before reading or practicing the restricted material, it is necessary to contact a lineage holder and have the material introduced, read aloud, and explained by a lineage holder, then this would be even more helpful.

For many years, translators who had private access to a Tibetan source would review their translations with the source, and then make corrections. How many corrections were rightfully attributed to the Tibetan source - we don't know. The key point is that unless the Tibetan source was an enlightened Master the translations still reflected the knowledgeable, but perhaps limited, dimension of the Tibetan. When in recent years, committees of practitioner-scholars vetted translations - perhaps this is closer to the original as the politics of powerful individualism (department chairs) was removed. Still, the translations reflect the collective dimensions (views) of the committee.

Previously you just had single department chairs battling it out. I am sure, with practice they have mellowed.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2718672

Even when a committee's best guess - using multiple sources - is briefly reviewed by an enlightened elderly nonnative speaking Master, this can still result in needless confusion, as with the apparently political denunciation of Jim Valby's excellent translations. Maybe the words were not exactly right for scholars or politicians but for one - and perhaps for many beginner practitioners, they served the purpose of opening the door to the teachings - and turned the Wheel. Hurrah for Jim and his thousands of hours of work with perfect intention.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 35#p654135

Personally, I was very happy with the phrases of "limpid clearness and consummate perspicacity," favorites of Jim's teacher - as this pointed to the essence, even if these phrases were cumbersome and wordy. Hurrah, hurrah for generous translators who publish freely, with links to lineage holders, catching the essence, and making the teachings of the Buddha come alive.

Hurrah for Dr. Guenther who gave it his best in 1975, many, many years ago, and also turned the wheel, introducing many to their first view of Dzogchen.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 79#p337279

As Dzogchen includes all words - and is beyond all words - maybe the choice of words is not so important - except for allowing rambling discussions on DW and giving the Moderators a job when word enthusiasts overreach.

:heart:
Old Bob, "the union de experiencia and wisdom" :meditate: ;)
oldbob wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:18 pm Way back when - mid-1970s - when I was first studying the Ka Kha Ga, my deep intuition was that "you can't get there from here."
Yes, I agree with your old deep intuition and phrase "Koan" Zen Style.

oldbob wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:18 pm 50 years later - with all of the modern translating supports of online dictionaries, I still found that the dictionaries often don't agree - perhaps reflecting the politics (and need to eat) of the dictionary sponsors.
Yes, I have noticed that book dictionaries often do not agree.
oldbob wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:18 pm Perhaps if all restricted material is presented with the advice that before reading or practicing the restricted material, it is necessary to contact a lineage holder and have the material introduced, read aloud, and explained by a lineage holder, then this would be even more helpful.
Agree, I think that reading it is not so much problem (except when it is very cryptic or symbolic) obviously for practice the "qualified help" is needed. I think that over time and the massive use of the Internet it will not make sense to catalog as "restricted material." For example "Introduction to the practice of contemplation" (that I recomended) is considered restricted material and yet is achieved buy without problems at Amazon and thus, many other examples.
And if you know how to search, you find many more things ...
oldbob wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:18 pm For many years, translators who had private access to a Tibetan source would review their translations with the source, and then make corrections. How many corrections were rightfully attributed to the Tibetan source - we don't know. The key point is that unless the Tibetan source was an enlightened Master the translations still reflected the knowledgeable, but perhaps limited, dimension of the Tibetan. When in recent years, committees of practitioner-scholars vetted translations - perhaps this is closer to the original as the politics of powerful individualism (department chairs) was removed. Still, the translations reflect the collective dimensions (views) of the committee.
Thanks for the history lesson
oldbob wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:18 pm As Dzogchen includes all words - and is beyond all words - maybe the choice of words is not so important - except for allowing rambling discussions on DW and giving the Moderators a job when word enthusiasts overreach.
Exactly, words never cease to be a defective indicator of what cannot be described whit words. But I also have in mind that better understanding about meaning collaborates in improving the "word that indicates or points". I always try to remember that "Dzogchen" is a word that indicates our "true natural state" and the rest of the things is sequendary or "simple ornaments"...

Thanks Oldbob !!!
oldbob
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Ask about: "Non-duality between the void and the clarity of the mind"

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

Yup.

:heart:
Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”