Attachment

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Jokingfish
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Attachment

Post by Jokingfish »

How do people behave when have no attachment?

Do buddhas like gautama have no attachment at all?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:01 pm How do people behave when have no attachment?

Do buddhas like gautama have no attachment at all?
When they have no attachment
How does it matter?
:jumping:

I think there are different levels of attachment.
For example, suppose someone is walking with no shoes and they step on a thorn:

An ordinary person will feel the pain of the thorn
and will be upset by the pain of the thorn (repulsion)
and will wish for the pain to be gone immediately (desire).

A person with some development of non-attachment will feel the pain of the thorn but will not be upset by it, and would like the pain to be gone eventually.

A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Soma999
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Re: Attachment

Post by Soma999 »

Less attachement, more love. You don’t act in a self-centered way, you act as an offering. Everything you do, say, think align with a higher purpose. Even eating and having sex becomes an offering and a cause of merit.
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Jokingfish
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Re: Attachment

Post by Jokingfish »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:01 pm How do people behave when have no attachment?

Do buddhas like gautama have no attachment at all?
When they have no attachment
How does it matter?
:jumping:

I think there are different levels of attachment.
For example, suppose someone is walking with no shoes and they step on a thorn:

An ordinary person will feel the pain of the thorn
and will be upset by the pain of the thorn (repulsion)
and will wish for the pain to be gone immediately (desire).

A person with some development of non-attachment will feel the pain of the thorn but will not be upset by it, and would like the pain to be gone eventually.

A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
What do you mean by inconvenience?
And really, zero pain, must be zero karma then too?
DharmaJunior
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Re: Attachment

Post by DharmaJunior »

My impression is of a subtle distinction between influence and control, language permitting. Mitigate those 'whoops a daisy' moments all you want, but reality still kicks in you front door, and hopefully this isn't too off base.
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Vajrasvapna
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Re: Attachment

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Jokingfish wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:01 pm How do people behave when have no attachment?

Do buddhas like gautama have no attachment at all?
The Bodhisattva progress is a attachment cleansing at every stages. The Buddhas experience is about luminosity and clarity. You can read about it here:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:55 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
What do you mean by inconvenience?
And really, zero pain, must be zero karma then too?
Inconvenience because they’d have to go get antibiotics.
Someone can be experiencing karmic fruition without it necessarily being pain.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Jokingfish
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Re: Attachment

Post by Jokingfish »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:09 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:55 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
What do you mean by inconvenience?
And really, zero pain, must be zero karma then too?
Inconvenience because they’d have to go get antibiotics.
Someone can be experiencing karmic fruition without it necessarily being pain.
On karmic fruition: what if its especially that kind of fruition that the person is supposed to feel pain? (in other words, can you elaborate? )
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:53 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:09 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:55 pm

What do you mean by inconvenience?
And really, zero pain, must be zero karma then too?
Inconvenience because they’d have to go get antibiotics.
Someone can be experiencing karmic fruition without it necessarily being pain.
On karmic fruition: what if its especially that kind of fruition that the person is supposed to feel pain? (in other words, can you elaborate? )
That would be the result of attachment.
Your original question referred to those who have completely abandoned attachment.

It’s pretty straightforward:
Attachment leads to suffering
Non attachment results in no suffering
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Attachment

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:01 pm How do people behave when have no attachment?

Do buddhas like gautama have no attachment at all?
When they have no attachment
How does it matter?
:jumping:

I think there are different levels of attachment.
For example, suppose someone is walking with no shoes and they step on a thorn:

An ordinary person will feel the pain of the thorn
and will be upset by the pain of the thorn (repulsion)
and will wish for the pain to be gone immediately (desire).

A person with some development of non-attachment will feel the pain of the thorn but will not be upset by it, and would like the pain to be gone eventually.

A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
I don't know if that's true. I'm sure they still feel pain, so long as they have a nervous system.

Also not feeling pain is actually a bad thing as it is what allows organisms to survive. There are plenty of cases of people who don't feel pain living short lives.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:12 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:01 pm How do people behave when have no attachment?

Do buddhas like gautama have no attachment at all?
When they have no attachment
How does it matter?
:jumping:

I think there are different levels of attachment.
For example, suppose someone is walking with no shoes and they step on a thorn:

An ordinary person will feel the pain of the thorn
and will be upset by the pain of the thorn (repulsion)
and will wish for the pain to be gone immediately (desire).

A person with some development of non-attachment will feel the pain of the thorn but will not be upset by it, and would like the pain to be gone eventually.

A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
I don't know if that's true. I'm sure they still feel pain, so long as they have a nervous system.

Also not feeling pain is actually a bad thing as it is what allows organisms to survive. There are plenty of cases of people who don't feel pain living short lives.
They feel things but the issue is whether the feeling is experienced as pain or not. I’ve worked with rough plywood for years and no longer feel pain when I get splinters, even though I feel splinters.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Attachment

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Ardha wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:12 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm
...I think there are different levels of attachment.
For example, suppose someone is walking with no shoes and they step on a thorn:

An ordinary person will feel the pain of the thorn
and will be upset by the pain of the thorn (repulsion)
and will wish for the pain to be gone immediately (desire).

A person with some development of non-attachment will feel the pain of the thorn but will not be upset by it, and would like the pain to be gone eventually.

A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
I don't know if that's true. I'm sure they still feel pain, so long as they have a nervous system.

Also not feeling pain is actually a bad thing as it is what allows organisms to survive. There are plenty of cases of people who don't feel pain living short lives.
I think you're both partly right - mostly right, in fact.

Yes, pain is a useful signal of danger to the organism, so moving away from pain is a sensible response. The aversion and attachment that most of us feel is not so sensible or useful and can be abandoned.

What happens at the extreme, when PVS says, "a being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain," really depends on what we mean by "pain".
If it's the signal without the emotional loading - no aversion, no desire for it to end - then I think the statement is wrong because the signal will still be there.
If we think "pain" includes the emotional loading, then the statement is correct.

:namaste:
Kim
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Attachment

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:46 pm
Ardha wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:12 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm
When they have no attachment
How does it matter?
:jumping:

I think there are different levels of attachment.
For example, suppose someone is walking with no shoes and they step on a thorn:

An ordinary person will feel the pain of the thorn
and will be upset by the pain of the thorn (repulsion)
and will wish for the pain to be gone immediately (desire).

A person with some development of non-attachment will feel the pain of the thorn but will not be upset by it, and would like the pain to be gone eventually.

A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
I don't know if that's true. I'm sure they still feel pain, so long as they have a nervous system.

Also not feeling pain is actually a bad thing as it is what allows organisms to survive. There are plenty of cases of people who don't feel pain living short lives.
They feel things but the issue is whether the feeling is experienced as pain or not. I’ve worked with rough plywood for years and no longer feel pain when I get splinters, even though I feel splinters.
I don't get it.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:12 am
They feel things but the issue is whether the feeling is experienced as pain or not. I’ve worked with rough plywood for years and no longer feel pain when I get splinters, even though I feel splinters.
I don't get it.
What don’t you get? If you don’t experience a feeling as pain, then it’s not a painful feeling, is it?

Are you familiar with the Buddhist concept of the so-called “three poisons”? Attraction, aversion, and indifference?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Attachment

Post by Kim O'Hara »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:35 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:12 am
They feel things but the issue is whether the feeling is experienced as pain or not. I’ve worked with rough plywood for years and no longer feel pain when I get splinters, even though I feel splinters.
I don't get it.
What don’t you get? If you don’t experience a feeling as pain, then it’s not a painful feeling, is it?

Are you familiar with the Buddhist concept of the so-called “three poisons”? Attraction, aversion, and indifference?
Ahem!

Attraction, aversion, and ignorance are more usual translations of the Sanskrit terms. There are others, of course -
Ignorance/Delusion (Moha)
Lust/Greed/Desire/Clinging (Raga)
Anger/Hatred (Dvesa)

- but I have never seen Indifference amongst them.

:namaste:
Kim
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:20 am
Attraction, aversion, and ignorance are more usual translations of the Sanskrit terms. There are others, of course -
Ignorance/Delusion (Moha)
Lust/Greed/Desire/Clinging (Raga)
Anger/Hatred (Dvesa)

- but I have never seen Indifference amongst them.

:namaste:
Kim
I was going to type ignorance/indifference.

I’ve seen ‘indifference’ used rather than ‘ignorance’ simply to distinguish it from ‘ignorance’ in the greater sense of the term as in the cause for samsaric rebirth in general. Here it means neither attracted to nor repulsed by sense objects, just sort of neutral, like not caring one way or another which socks you wear.

But ‘delusion’ is a much better term.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Attachment

Post by Kim O'Hara »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:28 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:20 am
Attraction, aversion, and ignorance are more usual translations of the Sanskrit terms. There are others, of course -
Ignorance/Delusion (Moha)
Lust/Greed/Desire/Clinging (Raga)
Anger/Hatred (Dvesa)

- but I have never seen Indifference amongst them.

:namaste:
Kim
I was going to type ignorance/indifference.

I’ve seen ‘indifference’ used rather than ‘ignorance’ simply to distinguish it from ‘ignorance’ in the greater sense of the term as in the cause for samsaric rebirth in general. Here it means neither attracted to nor repulsed by sense objects, just sort of neutral, like not caring one way or another which socks you wear.

But ‘delusion’ is a much better term.
There's a translation problem, just as there is with 'dukkha'. Years ago, in a similar conversation, I was told,
:quoteunquote: The three poisons in AN 3.54 Paribbājaka Sutta: A Wanderer are rāga (translated as passion, greed, lust, etc.), dosa (translated as hatred, aversion, anger, etc.), and moha (translated as delusion, ignorance, dullness, etc.).
There are also other Pāḷi words that are translated to those same English words. For example lobha may be translated as "greed", byāpāda may be translated as "anger", avijjā may be translated as "ignorance". :quoteunquote:

But the Three Poisons are the big ones, lurking at the centre of the Wheel of Life. I don't think 'indifference' is big enough for the job. Rather, it feels like a near enemy of Upekkha, equanimity ... which could cue a digression into the Brahmviharas, but let's not go there.

:smile:
Kim
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Re: Attachment

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:35 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:12 am
They feel things but the issue is whether the feeling is experienced as pain or not. I’ve worked with rough plywood for years and no longer feel pain when I get splinters, even though I feel splinters.
I don't get it.
What don’t you get? If you don’t experience a feeling as pain, then it’s not a painful feeling, is it?

Are you familiar with the Buddhist concept of the so-called “three poisons”? Attraction, aversion, and indifference?
Well you can experience it as pain and not assign any value to it, like aversion or hate. It still hurts but you don't really react to it. Pain is pain, unless you have a neurological issue.

How you relate to pain though, that's another matter.
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Attachment

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:56 pm
Ardha wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:12 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:21 pm
...I think there are different levels of attachment.
For example, suppose someone is walking with no shoes and they step on a thorn:

An ordinary person will feel the pain of the thorn
and will be upset by the pain of the thorn (repulsion)
and will wish for the pain to be gone immediately (desire).

A person with some development of non-attachment will feel the pain of the thorn but will not be upset by it, and would like the pain to be gone eventually.

A being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain. If the thorn is removed or not is only a question of preventing possible infection which might be an inconvenience. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter to them.
I don't know if that's true. I'm sure they still feel pain, so long as they have a nervous system.

Also not feeling pain is actually a bad thing as it is what allows organisms to survive. There are plenty of cases of people who don't feel pain living short lives.
I think you're both partly right - mostly right, in fact.

Yes, pain is a useful signal of danger to the organism, so moving away from pain is a sensible response. The aversion and attachment that most of us feel is not so sensible or useful and can be abandoned.

What happens at the extreme, when PVS says, "a being with absolutely no attachment feels no pain because there is no attachment to a ‘self’ who would feel pain," really depends on what we mean by "pain".
If it's the signal without the emotional loading - no aversion, no desire for it to end - then I think the statement is wrong because the signal will still be there.
If we think "pain" includes the emotional loading, then the statement is correct.

:namaste:
Kim
This is what I meant that PVS didn't clarify what they meant by it. If it is pain without the emotional loading then yes I can agree you don't "feel pain" (though I'll admit splinters aren't a good test of that). If they are referring to the signal then I have serious doubts about that as well as that might indicate something wrong with the nervous system.

Didn't really get an answer to that though, and it's not like I can test it.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attachment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:00 pm
This is what I meant that PVS didn't clarify what they meant by it.
I’ll make it simple:
If you aren’t suffering from something,
That thing isn’t causing you to suffer.

Call it ‘pain’ or ‘discomfort’ or ‘stress’ or whatever.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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