A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

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Akir
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A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by Akir »

Peace to all!

I heard such a thing from a lama. A precious human rebirth is not such if, for example, a person does not have a phalanx on his finger. Or are there some other missing organs... :shrug:

The same applies, for example, to deaf people.

How reasonable is this? What is confirmed?
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ThreeVows
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by ThreeVows »

Akir wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:11 pm Peace to all!

I heard such a thing from a lama. A precious human rebirth is not such if, for example, a person does not have a phalanx on his finger. Or are there some other missing organs... :shrug:

The same applies, for example, to deaf people.

How reasonable is this? What is confirmed?
FWIW I personally think this is basically irrelevant mental masturbation.

The bottom line is that we each are in our situation. And if we have access to and interest in the Dharma, then we might consider how worthwhile it is to use such a situation.

If we are someone who doesn't have a phalanx, then oh well, we do what we can with our situation.

If we know someone who doesn't have a phalanx, but they are interested in the Dharma and we have such a connection with them that we can supprot them in that pursuit, then we should do so, basically, as we are able.

Any other consideration, basically, is more or less entirely irrelevant to the actual application of the dharma.

FWIW.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Akir wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:11 pm How reasonable is this? What is confirmed?
Just more nonsense. Your fingers and toes are not what attains realization. Nor does any other part of the body.

There is so much pointless stuff like this that has accumulated over the years.

Of course, there are some things that seem trivial but which matter on some level. And sometimes little things are done simply to keep the student focused, or there is some symbolic meaning attributed to them.

But there is no end to what are really very petty concerns, such as which direction should a mala move, or how should incense sticks be lit, etc etc, and a lot of this is styled after all the rules involved in monk training, especially, I think, in some Chinese Mahayana traditions that get very specific, with rules such as how many fingers should be used to hold a tea cup. I mean, really, who cares?? They have that type of etiquette for monks to give them something with which to focus one pointedly.

But 99% of the time, if something sounds like arbitrary nonsense, like missing parts of fingers or toes, it probably is.
EMPTIFUL.
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Akir
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by Akir »

ThreeVows wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:22 pm
Akir wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:11 pm Peace to all!

I heard such a thing from a lama. A precious human rebirth is not such if, for example, a person does not have a phalanx on his finger. Or are there some other missing organs... :shrug:

The same applies, for example, to deaf people.

How reasonable is this? What is confirmed?
FWIW I personally think this is basically irrelevant mental masturbation.

The bottom line is that we each are in our situation. And if we have access to and interest in the Dharma, then we might consider how worthwhile it is to use such a situation.

If we are someone who doesn't have a phalanx, then oh well, we do what we can with our situation.

If we know someone who doesn't have a phalanx, but they are interested in the Dharma and we have such a connection with them that we can supprot them in that pursuit, then we should do so, basically, as we are able.

Any other consideration, basically, is more or less entirely irrelevant to the actual application of the dharma.

FWIW.
I, as a beginner trying to understand Buddhism, was also a little surprised by such "limitations" of the preciousness of human birth. And my point of view is very similar to yours.

Especially in our time, when people with varying degrees of disability are able to study the Dharma quite comfortably. It may not be ideal to practice and achieve enlightenment in one lifetime (and to be honest, which of us can do this at all), but create all the conditions for a more perfect practice in future births.

Of course, I could be wrong, as was the lama from whom I heard this.
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Akir
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by Akir »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:59 pm
Akir wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:11 pm How reasonable is this? What is confirmed?
Just more nonsense. Your fingers and toes are not what attains realization. Nor does any other part of the body.

There is so much pointless stuff like this that has accumulated over the years.

Of course, there are some things that seem trivial but which matter on some level. And sometimes little things are done simply to keep the student focused, or there is some symbolic meaning attributed to them.

But there is no end to what are really very petty concerns, such as which direction should a mala move, or how should incense sticks be lit, etc etc, and a lot of this is styled after all the rules involved in monk training, especially, I think, in some Chinese Mahayana traditions that get very specific, with rules such as how many fingers should be used to hold a tea cup. I mean, really, who cares?? They have that type of etiquette for monks to give them something with which to focus one pointedly.

But 99% of the time, if something sounds like arbitrary nonsense, like missing parts of fingers or toes, it probably is.
In general, I am alarmed and repelled by such literalism. And literalism because, probably, this lama, took his judgments from some shastras or other ancient books. Just, suddenly, these arguments about the phalanges of the fingers and missing limbs are in some authoritative sutra or something like that?

That's why I asked this question, knowing that the answers of more experienced practitioners and experts in the Dharma than myself will help me clear my doubts.
Last edited by Akir on Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

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Akir wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:11 pm Peace to all!

I heard such a thing from a lama. A precious human rebirth is not such if, for example, a person does not have a phalanx on his finger. Or are there some other missing organs... :shrug:

The same applies, for example, to deaf people.

How reasonable is this? What is confirmed?
At one time in history being deaf, etc having limited senses could severely limit one’s proximity to practicing Dharma.

Today that’s not really the case. The finger thing is just stupid. Buddhism has its share of silly literalists here and there, there was one Lama who insisted the Buddha was a giant based on the size of some begging bowl artifact.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Bristollad
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

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One Geshe I have received teachings from when discussing this said: if a disability is such that it stops someone from meeting and practising the Dharma, then you could say, for that person, a human rebirth would not be a precious human rebirth. But he then explained how being blind or deaf or in a wheelchair was certainly no major hindrance these days.
Last edited by Bristollad on Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Akir
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by Akir »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:43 am
Akir wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:11 pm Peace to all!

I heard such a thing from a lama. A precious human rebirth is not such if, for example, a person does not have a phalanx on his finger. Or are there some other missing organs... :shrug:

The same applies, for example, to deaf people.

How reasonable is this? What is confirmed?
At one time in history being deaf, etc having limited senses could severely limit one’s proximity to practicing Dharma.

Today that’s not really the case. The finger thing is just stupid. Buddhism has its share of silly literalists here and there, there was one Lama who insisted the Buddha was a giant based on the size of some begging bowl artifact.
With a finger, it's just stupid, really! There was also talk about appendicitis and other operations, when something is surgically removed from the body. In general, this Lama is quite charismatic (although this is not an indicator of wisdom at all, of course) and I find a lot of use in his lectures.

Thank you, your support is important to me! :bow:

P.S. giant buddha is something .... :rolling:
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Akir
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by Akir »

Bristollad wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:17 pm One Geshe I have received teachings from when discussing this said: if a disability is such that it stops someone from meeting and practising the Dharma, then you could say, for that person, a human rebirth would not be a precious human rebirth. But he then explained how being blind or deaf or in a wheelchair was certainly no major hindrance these days.
This is not only very logical, it is quite wise!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

First, human birth itself is a rare opportunity, because the main quality of the human ream is impermanence. On the one hand, this creates suffering.but on the other hand it means that situations can change and opportunities can arise for one to practice dharma.

‘Precious’ is a subset of human birth. Not only is there the unique opportunity provided by human -realm existence, but one is born under conditions favorable to dharma practice. Those things are listed in ‘four thoughts that turn the mind towards the dharma’
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Akir
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by Akir »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:59 pm First, human birth itself is a rare opportunity, because the main quality of the human ream is impermanence. On the one hand, this creates suffering.but on the other hand it means that situations can change and opportunities can arise for one to practice dharma.

‘Precious’ is a subset of human birth. Not only is there the unique opportunity provided by human -realm existence, but one is born under conditions favorable to dharma practice. Those things are listed in ‘four thoughts that turn the mind towards the dharma’
I try to occupy my mind as much as possible with these four thoughts. I think, as a beginner, these "four" will be especially useful to me. Thank you for your support, it inspires me to discipline, I am a very lazy potato!
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ThreeVows
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by ThreeVows »

Akir wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:15 am Especially in our time, when people with varying degrees of disability are able to study the Dharma quite comfortably. It may not be ideal to practice and achieve enlightenment in one lifetime (and to be honest, which of us can do this at all), but create all the conditions for a more perfect practice in future births.

Of course, I could be wrong, as was the lama from whom I heard this.
FWIW, the story of the blind Vajra Guru practitioner comes to mind. Sometimes it's said to be a successful practitioner you need all of the senses intact, and although he was born with his sight intact, it appears that he was able to practice quite well without his vision.

Anyway, comes to mind.

https://www.facebook.com/BuddhaDharmaa/ ... Vcli8&_rdr
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Akir
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Re: A precious human birth without a finger phalanx

Post by Akir »

ThreeVows wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:08 pm
Akir wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:15 am Especially in our time, when people with varying degrees of disability are able to study the Dharma quite comfortably. It may not be ideal to practice and achieve enlightenment in one lifetime (and to be honest, which of us can do this at all), but create all the conditions for a more perfect practice in future births.

Of course, I could be wrong, as was the lama from whom I heard this.
FWIW, the story of the blind Vajra Guru practitioner comes to mind. Sometimes it's said to be a successful practitioner you need all of the senses intact, and although he was born with his sight intact, it appears that he was able to practice quite well without his vision.

Anyway, comes to mind.

https://www.facebook.com/BuddhaDharmaa/ ... Vcli8&_rdr
Touching story, thanks for sharing!

This is what caught my eye:
https://www.facebook.com/reel/721863862653730/
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