Skillful means examples

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jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

Ayu wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:03 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:42 am Hi, have you used skillful means to do some good? how was it? can you share your experience?

i think this might be useful, there are so many situations one can learn from.
(I am writing this as a common member, not as mod.)

All the time since you have started this topic, I had doubts on the benefit of it.

Your idea to find inspiration and a better understanding of skillful means is nice. But in my personal opinion, people who answer your question literally won't do themselves a favor.

In my experience, if I succeeded in any spiritutal task and I start to tell a great story about it, I immediately shrunk the good energy.
Maybe now I sound silly, but whenever I was too talkative, I made this experience every time.
Talking takes energy, I really believe.

Therefore I better try to keep the precious experiences in private. One is endangered to boast about it and therefore lose that kind of reliance. :shrug:
It is perfectly fine not to talk about it. There's no problem.

This talk is meant this to encourage ourselves. I found that the more action i do, the talking or not becomes less important for me and more important for others.

It makes me happy to do practices to benefit others, and through time i found myself having no fear at all of loosing this or that. Imo, it's better to do something good and keep up whatever the circumstances, this way there's endless benefit for everyone.

There is no need to disclose details, but i feel so happy when i know there's still people around doing good. I think people that do good must know that they are not alone. Not only evil deservers attention.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

Once i accidentally stepped over an ant. After i noticed that i took him/her to an akt mandala and practiced for his/her benefit. Later that night i had a dream of a young lady coming out from her house to her garden and accidentally stepping over an ant, she noticed and felt sorry for the little ant, looked at it and smiled. I recognized that lady being Noble Tara and that little ant being who came to be my master ChNN.

It moves me to remember. Tara is really really wise and important.
muni
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by muni »

:namaste:
I can only repeat do not judge, what destroys our innate good qualities, which we all have. This is what I learned from own grasping. And then unawareness is a fact. Then Tara is "absent", while actually never.
All comes down on grasping, clinging. Skillful means are medicines. Very important help.

https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_arti ... ghtenment/
Giovanni
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by Giovanni »

muni wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:15 am :namaste:
I can only repeat do not judge, what destroys our innate good qualities, which we all have. This is what I learned from own grasping. And then unawareness is a fact. Then Tara is "absent", while actually never.
All comes down on grasping, clinging. Skillful means are medicines. Very important help.

https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_arti ... ghtenment/
Do we have innate good qualities? Who has those qualities? Do you mean an atta? If we have innate good qualities does that mean we innate bad qualities? 🙂
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Ayu
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by Ayu »

jet.urgyen wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:27 pm
Ayu wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:03 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:42 am Hi, have you used skillful means to do some good? how was it? can you share your experience?

i think this might be useful, there are so many situations one can learn from.
(I am writing this as a common member, not as mod.)

All the time since you have started this topic, I had doubts on the benefit of it.

Your idea to find inspiration and a better understanding of skillful means is nice. But in my personal opinion, people who answer your question literally won't do themselves a favor.

In my experience, if I succeeded in any spiritutal task and I start to tell a great story about it, I immediately shrunk the good energy.
Maybe now I sound silly, but whenever I was too talkative, I made this experience every time.
Talking takes energy, I really believe.

Therefore I better try to keep the precious experiences in private. One is endangered to boast about it and therefore lose that kind of reliance. :shrug:
It is perfectly fine not to talk about it. There's no problem.

This talk is meant this to encourage ourselves. I found that the more action i do, the talking or not becomes less important for me and more important for others.

It makes me happy to do practices to benefit others, and through time i found myself having no fear at all of loosing this or that. Imo, it's better to do something good and keep up whatever the circumstances, this way there's endless benefit for everyone.

There is no need to disclose details, but i feel so happy when i know there's still people around doing good. I think people that do good must know that they are not alone. Not only evil deservers attention.
I can fully accept your stance. When I was writing that post above, it already dawned to me that this phenomenon of energy-reduction could be very different for the different people.
It's really a complete personal thing, but it may concern many people as well.

I think, I just wanted to add that aspect to the topic.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Ayu wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:50 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:27 pm ...This talk is meant this to encourage ourselves. I found that the more action i do, the talking or not becomes less important for me and more important for others.

... There is no need to disclose details, but i feel so happy when i know there's still people around doing good. I think people that do good must know that they are not alone. Not only evil deservers attention.
I can fully accept your stance. When I was writing that post above, it already dawned to me that this phenomenon of energy-reduction could be very different for the different people.
It's really a complete personal thing, but it may concern many people as well.

I think, I just wanted to add that aspect to the topic.
There's a meme for that, I think -

share thoughts.jpg
share thoughts.jpg (36.65 KiB) Viewed 1059 times

:namaste:
Kim
jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

Ayu wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:50 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:27 pm
Ayu wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:03 pm
(I am writing this as a common member, not as mod.)

All the time since you have started this topic, I had doubts on the benefit of it.

Your idea to find inspiration and a better understanding of skillful means is nice. But in my personal opinion, people who answer your question literally won't do themselves a favor.

In my experience, if I succeeded in any spiritutal task and I start to tell a great story about it, I immediately shrunk the good energy.
Maybe now I sound silly, but whenever I was too talkative, I made this experience every time.
Talking takes energy, I really believe.

Therefore I better try to keep the precious experiences in private. One is endangered to boast about it and therefore lose that kind of reliance. :shrug:
It is perfectly fine not to talk about it. There's no problem.

This talk is meant this to encourage ourselves. I found that the more action i do, the talking or not becomes less important for me and more important for others.

It makes me happy to do practices to benefit others, and through time i found myself having no fear at all of loosing this or that. Imo, it's better to do something good and keep up whatever the circumstances, this way there's endless benefit for everyone.

There is no need to disclose details, but i feel so happy when i know there's still people around doing good. I think people that do good must know that they are not alone. Not only evil deservers attention.
I can fully accept your stance. When I was writing that post above, it already dawned to me that this phenomenon of energy-reduction could be very different for the different people.
It's really a complete personal thing, but it may concern many people as well.

I think, I just wanted to add that aspect to the topic.
And you do, i think your concern is genuine and also appropriate for some. It is a good thing to have conversations :)
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Aemilius
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by Aemilius »

akuppa wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:22 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:18 pm Traditionally Skillful means or Upaya includes the Four Sangrahavastus and the Four Pratisamvids, which are:

The Four means of unification of Sangha or the Four Sangrahavastus:
1. Dana, giving
2. Priya-vadita, loving speech
3. Artha-carya or artha-kriya, putting into practice
4. Saman-arthata, the pursuit by oneself of that aim to which one incites others
I believe these are the same as what Dogen talked about in the essay Bodaisatta Shishobo.

You can read a translation here: https://www.sanshinji.org/shishobo.html
Thanks! I have read Thomas Cleary's translation in his Shobogenzo: Zen Essays by Dogen. Cleary translates Bodaisatta Shishoho as "The Four Integrative Methods of Bodhisattvas", which are "giving, kind speech, beneficial action and cooperation", in Cleary's translation.
There is no typing error, Thomas Cleary seems to think that the word is Shishoho. I don't speak or know japanese myself, so I don't know the reason behind it.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
muni
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by muni »

Giovanni wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:31 am
muni wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:15 am :namaste:
I can only repeat do not judge, what destroys our innate good qualities, which we all have. This is what I learned from own grasping. And then unawareness is a fact. Then Tara is "absent", while actually never.
All comes down on grasping, clinging. Skillful means are medicines. Very important help.

https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_arti ... ghtenment/
Do we have innate good qualities? Who has those qualities? Do you mean an atta? If we have innate good qualities does that mean we innate bad qualities? 🙂
The wholesome qualities which are innate in human
being, what we must nurture. 😊 If we alleviate the suffering of others our own happiness will naturally arise. But here the paramitas are important. Teaching by HH Dalai Lama regarding this says more about.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

Once i paid all debts of a person, it was around 3 times his income and on heavy interest rate. It was the only way for him to be free and start over.

The man begun to learn buddhist ethic and foudations, abandoned hate and harm. I believe he would do a good monk one lifetime.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

Giovanni wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:31 am
muni wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:15 am :namaste:
I can only repeat do not judge, what destroys our innate good qualities, which we all have. This is what I learned from own grasping. And then unawareness is a fact. Then Tara is "absent", while actually never.
All comes down on grasping, clinging. Skillful means are medicines. Very important help.

https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_arti ... ghtenment/
Do we have innate good qualities? Who has those qualities? Do you mean an atta? If we have innate good qualities does that mean we innate bad qualities? 🙂
I do believe, since i digged deep enough to be quite sure, that human nature is about helping each other, about collaborate and such good qualities, but our mind's relative discourse is all about selfishness and clouds it almost all.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
master of puppets
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by master of puppets »

May be no need for any skillful needs in helping the other.

🙏🏻
jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

master of puppets wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 pm May be no need for any skillful needs in helping the other.

🙏🏻
U need to tailor everything.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

Once i arranged flowers,altar, incense and light, the AKT mandala and performed the full moon practice for benefiting all under the moonlight. it was really late at night and was tired but did it anyway. after i finished spirits and women came to me, thanked and said that it won't be forgotten. they seemed surprised.

we have in our very hands the keys to enable everyone's happiness. all who have being blessed by their guru can say and do so.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I once saw a cat sitting on someone’s front steps. Its eyes were shut and it looked like it was meditating. It sat there for a long time.

When I came back later that day, the cat had totally and completely vanished. I looked on the steps where it had been, and there wasn’t even a trace of it.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by jet.urgyen »

I had a schoolmate who died violently in a car accident when he was about 25 years old. a few days after he died i practiced AKT for his benefit, i knew he was a hard consumer of marijuana and stuff, and that his clarity would be little , but tried to help him anyway. he appeared to me in dreams then asking for more help, so i kept dedicating practices for him in daily fashion. last time i saw him he was very happy and came to say goodbye. i think he is in sukavati or something.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by Sādhaka »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:03 pm Skillful means is actually the seventh perfection after wisdom the sixth. It will be perfected on the seventh bhumi.

Which makes sense since one must perfect their insight before being able to demonstrate them indirectly to beings whom are not ready.

This^.

It seems that Upaya actually begins at the First Bodhisattva Bhumi, and is perfected, as you said at the Seventh. Although I'm not sure how Upaya is perfected at the Seventh Bhumi and not later....
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by ThreeVows »

jet.urgyen wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:25 pm I had a schoolmate who died violently in a car accident when he was about 25 years old. a few days after he died i practiced AKT for his benefit, i knew he was a hard consumer of marijuana and stuff, and that his clarity would be little , but tried to help him anyway. he appeared to me in dreams then asking for more help, so i kept dedicating practices for him in daily fashion. last time i saw him he was very happy and came to say goodbye. i think he is in sukavati or something.
That reminded me of something that happened to me, although it's not the same really... I had a friend growing up who committed suicide in college. We had not seen each other for a couple/few years or so by that time perhaps, as we were at different colleges, but anyway I went to his wake. I found that it felt appropriate to recite the vajrasattva long mantra while I was there, and it was a quite strong experience actually - there was a very strong sort of resonance/presence to it, and it felt like it just wanted to be done almost. At a certain point, I had to leave due to other obligations but I just wanted to stay there saying it really. There was both a power and a sort of wholesome quality it seemed to saying it, and it certainly felt beneficial. I didn't have any dreams or anything, but it was at that time a fairly remarkable experience for me, although it's hard to properly express.

Anyway, FWIW.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by ThreeVows »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:38 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:03 pm Skillful means is actually the seventh perfection after wisdom the sixth. It will be perfected on the seventh bhumi.

Which makes sense since one must perfect their insight before being able to demonstrate them indirectly to beings whom are not ready.

This^.

It seems that Upaya actually begins at the First Bodhisattva Bhumi, and is perfected, as you said at the Seventh. Although I'm not sure how Upaya is perfected at the Seventh Bhumi and not later....
FWIW, I think basically what happens is that with the 6th Bhumi, there is a full realization in post-equipoise that all phenomena are in truth pure, but due to ignorance, this is not realized by beings. Really all that is necessary, then, is to overcome ignorance and reveal that which has always been in truth the case.

This is realized for oneself, but nonetheless in terms of one's manifestation in the world, one still is unable to fully help others unless those others have significant merit. For those beings who lack merit, it is realized that one is basically unable, it would seem, to help them properly.

Here, then, great bodhisattva aspirations are made where one basically deeply prays or aspires that one's body, speech, mind, qualities, and activities basically act as adornments of wisdom. In another manner of speaking, one comes to realize that the true guru, which is basically wisdom mind, is the sole reliance for the benefit of beings, and so one's 'own' mind - body, speech, mind, etc - sort of comes to fully rely on this wisdom.

This basically burns through subtle habitual patterns where one might have subtle ideas that there is a 'right' way to teach beings and a 'wrong' way. Also, at this point, one has to come to realize the four activities as discussed in Vajrayana, as one has to allow one's body, speech, mind, etc, to manifest in a pacifying manner through a wrathful manner as is basically 'commanded' by the wisdom guru, so to speak.

At a point, then, one realizes the fullness of these four activities and realizes that in truth, this has always been how it is for all beings. That is to say that everything that happens, has happened, and will happen to all beings is, was, and always will be a manifestation of enlightened love, even if that is not recognized by the beings at the time. This would include things like war, pestilence, famine, cancer, sickness, etc - all of them fall within the scope of the four activities.

At this point, then, it is absolutely impossible to find anything at all that is not pure, and this is not simply an 'external' thing, but rather one sort of participates in it fully. Then, one enters the pure bhumis, because it is realized that there never was any phenomena in the slightest which was ever impure, and given that one is participating in this in a way where in some sense 'personal' activity has ceased, there is no possibility of anything other than experiencing the play of wisdom in a pure land, essentially.

It is necessary, in terms of the path, with the 7th Bhumi to clearly discern that the mind that is rooted in ignorance is, was, and always will be fundamentally misguided. And one has to then fully, utterly, entirely offer up all of this to the true wisdom guru to use as an adornment. Of course, on some level understanding that the wisdom guru is the nature of one's own mind, ultimately.

I think on a sort of psychological level, with the 7th Bhumi one dives into the very corners of the psyche, the very last vestiges of habitual tendencies of viewing things as impure. With the 8th Bhumi, one kind of realizes a sort of non-action, as one's 'self' has been offered up entirely and become a sort of tool that wisdom uses.

Anyway, some words.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Skillful means examples

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:38 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:03 pm Skillful means is actually the seventh perfection after wisdom the sixth. It will be perfected on the seventh bhumi.

Which makes sense since one must perfect their insight before being able to demonstrate them indirectly to beings whom are not ready.

This^.

It seems that Upaya actually begins at the First Bodhisattva Bhumi, and is perfected, as you said at the Seventh. Although I'm not sure how Upaya is perfected at the Seventh Bhumi and not later....
Technically, there is not much difference between Bodhisattva of 7th bhumi and 8th bhumi, both successfully integrate their direct preception of emptiness (gnosis) 24/7 with their post-equipoise activities. The difference is that the latter does it effortlessly as a result of having more obstructions removed.

Bodhisattvas of the seventh bhumi also realise the emptiness of all dharmas along with all their components and that make them far superior to both Arhats and solitary buddhas who are unable to teach and turn the wheel and still have some subtle clinging to the characteristics and irreducible components of dharmas. (hence seventh ground is also known as gone far). This also marks the first instance where bodhisattva surpass the hearers in wisdom.

With superior wisdom and the ability to enter into and arise out of the meditative equipoise of cessation instantly, comes the full mastery of skilfull means to educate sentinel beings.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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