If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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Ophidian Rainbow
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If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by Ophidian Rainbow »

If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

I have had intimations and intuitions about the Buddhist doctrine of anatman, or no-self. However, I have always wondered that if our personhood is a fiction, who or what reincarnates, precisely?

I am asking this here, specifically in a sub-forum of Vajrayana Buddhism, considering the existence of the Tibetan Tulku system. I do not want to initiate a discussion regarding the validity and usefulness of the Tulku system (such as the documentary ''Tulku'' by one of the sons of Chogyam Trungpa started), but supposing that it is true that an enlightened master can reincarnate and inhabit a new body, how could we possibly speak of that being THAT person–––seeing that Buddhism asserts that there is no self?

Or supposing that 'you' die, and reincarnate, who or what is it that has started a new life?

I look forward to reading your answers :)

Please share your thoughts! :heart:
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by Soma999 »

In absolute truth nothing exists. In relative truth everything exists.

Anatman means nothing exists in an independent way, so, in a certain way nothing exists as it is changing all the time, and depends on everything.

That does not mean you don’t have an existence. You exist, but in dependence with everything else.

In the cycle of birth and death, at the center is the « me, my, my ». When this egocentric fixation is dissolved, then you become free.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rainbow Schlong wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:21 pm If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?
This is probably the most asked question ever!
If you look at who you are at this moment (conventionally speaking), you are nearly identical to who you were moments ago.
Most non-Buddhists assume that this indicates a continuous self.
Buddhists say that whoever that was a few moments ago is effectively gone, and that who you are now is nearly identical simply because the causes for who you were then are nearly identical to the causes for who you are now.

Likewise, who you are now pretty much determines who you will be a few moments from now, unless some drastic event occurs.
In this discussion, “Who you are” is merely a convenient way of referring to whatever collection of thoughts and physical characteristics are experienced as “myself” at the moment. It doesn’t mean to imply an actual self. It would actually be more accurate to say “arising” or “becoming”.
Individual streams of causes-and-results function as individual beings: “my” thoughts and body are distinguishable from “yours”.

For a tulku (actually, for everybody) who they are in this life is like an echo of who they were in a past life.

If there was an actual continuous, unchanging self, karma and rebirth would be impossible, because they require change in order to occur.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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Soma999 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:06 pm In absolute truth nothing exists. In relative truth everything exists.

Anatman means nothing exists in an independent way, so, in a certain way nothing exists as it is changing all the time, and depends on everything.

That does not mean you don’t have an existence. You exist, but in dependence with everything else.

In the cycle of birth and death, at the center is the « me, my, my ». When this egocentric fixation is dissolved, then you become free.
I can follow this. But I do not really understand how this makes any sense when it comes to the literal incarnation of deceased lama's, such as the lineage holders within the Kagyu schools, such as the figure of Karmapa.

If the Karmapa started reincarnating many generations ago, and is now living its 17th incarnation, how could we speak of him being connected to all these past lives, if there is no such thing as a self. Dropping the idea of the self, could we at the very least speak of an 'individual mindstream'––or the entirety of one's karmic ties and circumstances?

Like I said I can follow what you said, but by and large I am still very confused how this relates to the concept of reincarnation.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:41 pm
Rainbow Schlong wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:21 pm If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?
This is probably the most asked question ever!
If you look at who you are at this moment (conventionally speaking), you are nearly identical to who you were moments ago.
Most non-Buddhists assume that this indicates a continuous self.
Buddhists say that whoever that was a few moments ago is effectively gone, and that who you are now is nearly identical simply because the causes for who you were then are nearly identical to the causes for who you are now.

Likewise, who you are now pretty much determines who you will be a few moments from now, unless some drastic event occurs.
In this discussion, “Who you are” is merely a convenient way of referring to whatever collection of thoughts and physical characteristics are experienced as “myself” at the moment. It doesn’t mean to imply an actual self. It would actually be more accurate to say “arising” or “becoming”.
Individual streams of causes-and-results function as individual beings: “my” thoughts and body are distinguishable from “yours”.

For a tulku (actually, for everybody) who they are in this life is like an echo of who they were in a past life.

If there was an actual continuous, unchanging self, karma and rebirth would be impossible, because they require change in order to occur.
Thank you for your reply. I think I understand what you wrote to me, I get the Buddhist idea when it comes to the non-existence of a self, and that it would be better to think of our fabricated personhood as an on-going process which we erroneously try to solidify with the idea of being an actual, solid person, as if our personality were made from concrete. However––and for this reason it was particularly enlightening that you mentioned 'individual streams of causes-and-results'––I can't see how, despite the fact that I believe to understand the Buddhist view of anatman, we could not at the very least speak of an individual mind-stream, or cluster of individual karmic causes, so to speak.

Now that I am writing this, I suddenly remember someone tried to answer this question to me once in person and mentioned 'alaya.' Having googled this just now, I stumbled upon the following quote/text:
''Ālaya-vijñāna (storehouse consciousness) refers to a level of subliminal mental processes that occur uninterruptedly throughout one’s life and, in the Buddhist view, one’s multiple lifetimes. It represents, in effect, one’s personal continuity along with the continuity of one’s accumulated karmic potential (hence, “storehouse”). Ālaya-vijñāna—along with Consciousness-Only (vijñapti-mātra) and the Three Natures (trisvabhāva)—is one of the distinguishing doctrines of the Yogācāra (“Practitioners of Yoga”) school of Indian Buddhism. The Yogācāra school flourished in India from the 3rd to 5th centuries of the Common Era and influenced all later types of Buddhism, particularly in Tibet and East Asia; the development of the concept of ālaya-vijñāna parallels this history. Initially, ālaya-vijñāna addressed a series of problems created by the Abhidharmic emphasis on the momentary nature of all mental processes, mostly concerning personal continuity: the continuity of karmic potential and the afflictions (kleśa) in a latent state, the gradual path to liberation, and the problem of rebirth. Once articulated, this underlying level of subliminal consciousness also allowed for a more robust explanation of the constructed nature of perception (“consciousness-,” “representation-,” or “appearance-only,” vijñapti-mātra) as well as the commonality of our experienced world (bhājana-loka). And since it represents the “store” of one’s past karma, ālaya-vijñāna is what must be eliminated, transformed, or purified on the path to liberation, when it becomes a “stainless consciousness” (amala-vijñāna).''
I understand, especially after reading your comment, that it would be incredibly wrong to think of the alaya as some sort of ''proof'' for the existence of a personality. But what I am getting at, as the text above also mentions, in terms of one's karmic bagage, so to speak, there is personal continuity––-that is until the truth is finally penetrated and one has eventually reached the absolute state of enlightenment, merging with the real.

In a way I feel that words are quite limiting in a discussion like this, as happens often considering the subject matter, but I hope you understand where I am coming from and would like to know if you have anything to add, or if you could confirm or correct what I have just shared with you.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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A bundle of habits, predispositions, maybe recalled sensory experience, etc. is reborn, it’s really not that complicated.

I always liked the term habit-energy.

Buddhism does not, and has never denied then -conventional- experience of self or personality. In fact, the fact that we have those conventional experiences and grasp at them is sort of the point.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rainbow Schlong wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:33 pm
I can't see how, despite the fact that I believe to understand the Buddhist view of anatman, we could not at the very least speak of an individual mind-stream, or cluster of individual karmic causes, so to speak.
Buddhist teachings do speak of individual mind streams.
There are individual mind streams
But mind streams aren’t individuals.

The distinction between objects, including mindstreams, only exists conditionally.
What that means is, for example, a mind stream is like a river stream. We can say this is the Mississippi River over here, and that’s the Amazon River over there. Relative to each other, they are distinct, individual streams of water.
But if you just look at only one, either one, it’s a constantly changing flow of stuff: water, fish, leaves, etc. You can’t extract any “Amazon-self ness” out of the river.

So, even though my mindstream flows differently than your mindstream, with different thoughts, there’s no separate ‘owner’ of those thoughts outside of the thoughts themselves, which are constantly appearing and disappearing.

Even though we may experience a sort of constant “me” that seems to be “having” thoughts, like “yesterday I was sad and today I am happy” that “me” is likewise also a constant changing flow of thoughts.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:41 pm A bundle of habits, predispositions, maybe recalled sensory experience, etc. is reborn, it’s really not that complicated.

I always liked the term habit-energy.
Trungpa said that our bad habits are reborn (but in this quip he ignored the positive intentions and qualities that are also reborn).
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Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:41 pm A bundle of habits, predispositions, maybe recalled sensory experience, etc. is reborn, it’s really not that complicated.

I always liked the term habit-energy.

Buddhism does not, and has never denied then -conventional- experience of self or personality. In fact, the fact that we have those conventional experiences and grasp at them is sort of the point.
Right. So if I can deduce from what you wrote, it is correct to say that the very mental clinging and grasping at one's past experiences, erroneously holding onto a fiction of supposed personhood, causes one to reincarnate? Meaning that reincarnation occurs as an expression or as a result of one's distorted perception of a self? As an expression of one's mental-activity, or as you stated, one's habit-energy?
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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kirtu wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:41 pm A bundle of habits, predispositions, maybe recalled sensory experience, etc. is reborn, it’s really not that complicated.

I always liked the term habit-energy.
Trungpa said that our bad habits are reborn (but in this quip he ignored the positive intentions and qualities that are also reborn).
Yes, thats accumulation of merit essentially, in a sense of Western pysch you could call it “cultivating positive personality traits” or some such.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Rainbow Schlong wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:03 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:41 pm A bundle of habits, predispositions, maybe recalled sensory experience, etc. is reborn, it’s really not that complicated.

I always liked the term habit-energy.

Buddhism does not, and has never denied then -conventional- experience of self or personality. In fact, the fact that we have those conventional experiences and grasp at them is sort of the point.
Right. So if I can deduce from what you wrote, it is correct to say that the very mental clinging and grasping at one's past experiences, erroneously holding onto a fiction of supposed personhood, causes one to reincarnate? Meaning that reincarnation occurs as an expression or as a result of one's distorted perception of a self? As an expression of one's mental-activity, or as you stated, one's habit-energy?
Yeah that’s Buddhism 101, to some degree, rebirth as a sentient being is a result of ignorance.

With stuff like Tulkus there is a whole other set of ideas about emanation, etc. but in a basic sense of ‘what is reborn’ the above answers the main question.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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It's the other way around. If there was a self, an independent, autonomous, causeless entity, then it couldn't be reborn.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Rainbow Schlong wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:19 pm
Soma999 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:06 pm In absolute truth nothing exists. In relative truth everything exists.

Anatman means nothing exists in an independent way, so, in a certain way nothing exists as it is changing all the time, and depends on everything.

That does not mean you don’t have an existence. You exist, but in dependence with everything else.

In the cycle of birth and death, at the center is the « me, my, my ». When this egocentric fixation is dissolved, then you become free.
I can follow this. But I do not really understand how this makes any sense when it comes to the literal incarnation of deceased lama's, such as the lineage holders within the Kagyu schools, such as the figure of Karmapa.

If the Karmapa started reincarnating many generations ago, and is now living its 17th incarnation, how could we speak of him being connected to all these past lives, if there is no such thing as a self. Dropping the idea of the self, could we at the very least speak of an 'individual mindstream'––or the entirety of one's karmic ties and circumstances?

Like I said I can follow what you said, but by and large I am still very confused how this relates to the concept of reincarnation.
Again as has been mentioned, if there were a unique, inherent self it would be unchanging, and thus isn’t Le to experience rebirth, which is an endless concatenation of change.

Learn a bit on dependent origination.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rainbow Schlong wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:19 pm
I can follow this. But I do not really understand how this makes any sense when it comes to the literal incarnation of deceased lama's, such as the lineage holders within the Kagyu schools, such as the figure of Karmapa.
Yeah, you totally didn’t read my reply, so I will explain it again, referring to HH Karmapa, since you mentioned him.

What makes the Karmapa the same guy on Tuesday that he was on Monday?
Causes. Whatever causes occur for the Karmapa to arise as the Karmapa on Monday are the same causes for the arising of the Karmapa on Tuesday. Same as with you or me.
When the causes for the arising as “you” cease, that “you” will also cease.

This same principle applies not only day to day, but moment you moment as well as lifetime to lifetime. Thus, if you create the conditions for a hungry ghost to arise, then after you die, what will arise next will be a hungry ghost.
Is it the same being, or different?
Relative to each other, beings are different.
But uniqueness can only occur relatively.
Within any given being itself, there is no “self”, no continuous essence of being.

Again, it’s just like talking about a river. There’s nothing that can be extracted from a river that is its ‘essence’, nothing that owns the water and fish and movement. But a river can flow from one town to another, as long as there are causes for it to do so. But it’s not really the same river, is it? It’s just the same flow.
Likewise with beings. A being is a flow of mental and physical events, each event causing the arising of the next.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by Ophidian Rainbow »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:05 pm
Rainbow Schlong wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:19 pm
I can follow this. But I do not really understand how this makes any sense when it comes to the literal incarnation of deceased lama's, such as the lineage holders within the Kagyu schools, such as the figure of Karmapa.
Yeah, you totally didn’t read my reply, so I will explain it again, referring to HH Karmapa, since you mentioned him.

What makes the Karmapa the same guy on Tuesday that he was on Monday?
Causes. Whatever causes occur for the Karmapa to arise as the Karmapa on Monday are the same causes for the arising of the Karmapa on Tuesday. Same as with you or me.
When the causes for the arising as “you” cease, that “you” will also cease.

This same principle applies not only day to day, but moment you moment as well as lifetime to lifetime. Thus, if you create the conditions for a hungry ghost to arise, then after you die, what will arise next will be a hungry ghost.
Is it the same being, or different?
Relative to each other, beings are different.
But uniqueness can only occur relatively.
Within any given being itself, there is no “self”, no continuous essence of being.

Again, it’s just like talking about a river. There’s nothing that can be extracted from a river that is its ‘essence’, nothing that owns the water and fish and movement. But a river can flow from one town to another, as long as there are causes for it to do so. But it’s not really the same river, is it? It’s just the same flow.
Likewise with beings. A being is a flow of mental and physical events, each event causing the arising of the next.
My apologies for the extremely late reply. Unfortunately my initial response a few weeks ago didn't come through because my post was not approved by the moderators of Dharma Wheel. This was not so much an issue about the actual post but something else.

If anything, thanks so much for your contributions to this thread. It has helped my understanding of this classic question about the nature of rebirth quite a lot! :namaste:
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

Post by Malcolm »

Ophidian Rainbow wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:21 pm If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?


Put in the simplest terms, no entity transfers from this life to the next, but there is a serial continuity between this life and the next.
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Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:33 pm
Ophidian Rainbow wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:21 pm If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?


Put in the simplest terms, no entity transfers from this life to the next, but there is a serial continuity between this life and the next.
Thanks for sharing. This one line you wrote encapsulates precisely why I was so mind boggled over the concept of reincarnation. I understood that there is no such thing as a ''self'', that being a separate entity that dies, reincarnates, and is born again with a ''new body''–––but then I was stopped as soon as considered the fact that there are Tulku's around who have reincarnated many, many times.

Your sentence, put in the simplest terms, summarises it perfectly. Cheers! :bow:
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