Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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Nosta
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Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by Nosta »

According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
What exactly do you mean by “real”?
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by DNS »

Intelligent species on another planet would probably fall under the same category as manussa loka (humans) in the cosmology. Even though they are not human, they are similar in that they are the dominant, most intelligent species on their planet.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... _existence
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:58 pm
Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
What exactly do you mean by “real”?
My objective is not debate that...by real, I mean "normal" real. Just that. Anyway, real or not, the question here is if gods and demi gods from buddhist cosmology are beeings that look like humans.
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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DNS wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:31 pm Intelligent species on another planet would probably fall under the same category as manussa loka (humans) in the cosmology. Even though they are not human, they are similar in that they are the dominant, most intelligent species on their planet.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... _existence
Thanks, I will read that link you gave.
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
What really defines a state of existence for beings in one realm or another is more about the conditions they experience, and not so much about their physical appearance. For example, the primary condition which defines the human realm is that everything is in a constant state of change. This not only creates a constant state of unsatisfactory-ness, but is also why the human realm is uniquely suited for dharma practice. Pretas (hungry ghosts) by comparison, experience a constant state of hunger and thirst.

In the pali suttas, the Buddha describes more than merely 6 realms. Or, you might say, there are many sub-realms. For example, hot hells and cold hells. Sometimes the deva realm and asura realm are referred to as one realm with two classes of beings in it. Or, how animals and humans share the same world.
Most Buddhists are familiar with a circular painting of the wheel of samsara, divided like a pizza into six or more slices, which is an artist’s depiction. But my understanding is that realms are not so clearly defined, but are actually more fluid, since the reality of one’s existence is a projection of the mind to begin with.

I’ve suggested before, I think the Buddha may have described the various realms in a way that was suitable for people in India at the time, with higher and lower realms being described like a multi-level caste system (which one would also supposedly be born into).
I don’t have any scholarly basis for making such an assumption. It’s purely conjecture on my part. But if I were to try to simplify such a complex concept, and a clearly defined caste system was something everyone was already familiar with, I think I would describe the various realms as being similar to that.
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:36 pm
Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
What really defines a state of existence for beings in one realm or another is more about the conditions they experience, and not so much about their physical appearance. For example, the primary condition which defines the human realm is that everything is in a constant state of change. This not only creates a constant state of unsatisfactory-ness, but is also why the human realm is uniquely suited for dharma practice. Pretas (hungry ghosts) by comparison, experience a constant state of hunger and thirst.

In the pali suttas, the Buddha describes more than merely 6 realms. Or, you might say, there are many sub-realms. For example, hot hells and cold hells. Sometimes the deva realm and asura realm are referred to as one realm with two classes of beings in it. Or, how animals and humans share the same world.
Most Buddhists are familiar with a circular painting of the wheel of samsara, divided like a pizza into six or more slices, which is an artist’s depiction. But my understanding is that realms are not so clearly defined, but are actually more fluid, since the reality of one’s existence is a projection of the mind to begin with.

I’ve suggested before, I think the Buddha may have described the various realms in a way that was suitable for people in India at the time, with higher and lower realms being described like a multi-level caste system (which one would also supposedly be born into).
I don’t have any scholarly basis for making such an assumption. It’s purely conjecture on my part. But if I were to try to simplify such a complex concept, and a clearly defined caste system was something everyone was already familiar with, I think I would describe the various realms as being similar to that.
I agree with you. Altought an assumption, as you, I think that realms are "fluid" and the Buddha described them according to the people knowledge in that time. Perhaps if it were today, he would describe worlds in a different manner.
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
Homo sapien isn't the only homo or human species once lived on planet earth. There are other human lite species like the Denisovans, Homo erectus and Neanderthals who once walked the Earth.
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
Have you heard of the Avatamsaka sutra (Flower Ornament Scripture) or read it? See for example http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas_contents.asp.html
Here as in many other Mahayana sutras the audience and the assembly contains eight kinds of supernatural beings: Bodhisattvas, Devas, Brahmas, Asuras, Nagas, Garudas, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Rakshasas, Kumbhandas, Mahoragas, Kimnaras, etc... who live in the worlds of the ten drections.
In the above commentary of the Flower Ornament sutra Ven Hsuan Hua gives interesting explanations and descriptions of the different classes of nonhuman beings. They can be found in the chapter named The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, part three.
Last edited by Aemilius on Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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Aemilius wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:05 am
Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
Have you heard of the Avatamsaka sutra (Flower Ornament Scripture) or read it? See for example http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas_contents.asp.html
Here as in many other Mahayana sutras the audience and the assembly contains eight kinds of supernatural beings: Bodhisattvas, Devas, Brahmas, Asuras, Nagas, Garudas, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Rakshasas, Kumbhandas, Mahoragas, Kimnaras, etc... who live in the worlds of the ten drections.
In the above commentary of the Flower Ornament sutra Ven Hsuan Hua gives interesting explanations and descriptions of the different classes of nonhuman beings. They can be found in the chapter named The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, part three.
That sounds interesting! I will read it, thanks!
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Do you guys follow Kevin Knuth?

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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Knuth is really amazing.

In this video he talks about what he thinks aliens might look like (including if they might be humanoid, etc.) and why he thinks that.

I actually link to a section just before he talks about that where gives information that you will need to know in order to understand why he says what he does about what they might look like. The sections leading up to where he talks about what they might look like also contain some other concepts that are very interesting in their own right. The whole thing is worth watching. :alien: :alien: :alien:




:popcorn:

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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by Virgo »

This section is also relevant:



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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by Nosta »

Virgo wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:53 pm This section is also relevant:



Virgo
Thanks! I will see it later as soon as I can :)
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by august »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:05 am
Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
Have you heard of the Avatamsaka sutra (Flower Ornament Scripture) or read it? See for example http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas_contents.asp.html
Here as in many other Mahayana sutras the audience and the assembly contains eight kinds of supernatural beings: Bodhisattvas, Devas, Brahmas, Asuras, Nagas, Garudas, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Rakshasas, Kumbhandas, Mahoragas, Kimnaras, etc... who live in the worlds of the ten drections.
In the above commentary of the Flower Ornament sutra Ven Hsuan Hua gives interesting explanations and descriptions of the different classes of nonhuman beings. They can be found in the chapter named The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, part three.
Aren't those (in bold) just different states of mind?
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by Aemilius »

august wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:43 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:05 am
Nosta wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:26 pm According to many testemonies of ufo cases, etc, the occupants can have a variety of shapes, but some of them look like humans.
Some even say that they "walk among us".

I am not asking you to believe, accept or whateve any of these. What I ask is if there are things in buddhist cosmology that relate to this, to the possibility that that perhaps asuras and gods look like humans. IF we were to accept such cases as real, how could we explain them in light of buddhist cosmology?
Have you heard of the Avatamsaka sutra (Flower Ornament Scripture) or read it? See for example http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas_contents.asp.html
Here as in many other Mahayana sutras the audience and the assembly contains eight kinds of supernatural beings: Bodhisattvas, Devas, Brahmas, Asuras, Nagas, Garudas, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Rakshasas, Kumbhandas, Mahoragas, Kimnaras, etc... who live in the worlds of the ten drections.
In the above commentary of the Flower Ornament sutra Ven Hsuan Hua gives interesting explanations and descriptions of the different classes of nonhuman beings. They can be found in the chapter named The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, part three.
Aren't those (in bold) just different states of mind?
Human beings are also a state of mind. If you want to se it that way. Buddhism does say that the six realms of beings exist, in like manner as the human realm exists. See for example Bhavachakra or the Wheel of Life.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

august wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:43 pm Aren't those just different states of mind?
…as opposed to being what?
(Think carefully)
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by ThreeVows »

DNS wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:31 pm Intelligent species on another planet would probably fall under the same category as manussa loka (humans) in the cosmology. Even though they are not human, they are similar in that they are the dominant, most intelligent species on their planet.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... _existence
One note, if it's of interest to anyone, is that I believe according to Mipham, although human beings typically are womb born, they can be born of any of the 4 types of birth. Which would seemingly imply that human is not equal to homo sapiens, when it comes to the categorization of the realm.

I believe the 15th Karmapa discussed a previous lifetime in some world system where the humans were egg born, as I recall.
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

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august wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:43 pm Aren't those (in bold) just different states of mind?
I think basically the idea is that a there is the experience of being embodied in a realm of experience which is taken to be real reality. Ultimately, this is not so, but relatively, this apparent being believes that their reality is in fact reality.

This is just as applicable to humans as it is to nagas, or kimnaras, or mahoragas, or horses, or whatever.

So you could perhaps say that yes, those are states of mind, but so is your current existence in just the same way. And if you consider your current existence to be somehow convincing, then you might consider that the others may be just as much.

FWIW.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Re: Human-like beings in Buddhist cosmology

Post by Kim O'Hara »

If you want a fictional exploration of the life after death and the human-like creatures existing (can't say 'living') in it, try The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida.
The title character is newly dead at the start of the book, and coming to terms with ghouls, pretas, yakas, demons, etc, as he comes to terms with his own life. "What's life after death like?" he asks himself. "Just like life Down There but worse." Considering that he was a war photographer in Sri Lanka in the 80s and 90s (Tamil Tigers, etc) that is not a great endorsement.
But it's a good book. Won the Booker Prize last year.

:reading:
Kim
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